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Bus Wiring - is it Essential?


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You can consider a half way house solution. A full bus isnt needed, everything is running well at the moment, so you can consider replacing some of the fishplates with the presoldered dropper type, that Peco makes. The DC power clips cant be used with DCC, I think, and they look unsightly, projecting out from the track as they do. I would place the powered-up fishplates into sidings locations which are most vulnerable to power loss.

 

Someone will probably object that as they are still fishplates, they have the vulnerability described, and are therefore not suitable. I used them successfully on my old DC layout, they didnt corrode at all, compared to replacement fishplates that have rusted badly - poor quality metal is actually to blame whereas the fishplates I mention have stayed bright.

 

I have some of these that I dont need and will never use as I'm going to 100% droppers this time, as advocated on here, so let me know if you would like to try them Mr LS 

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11 hours ago, latestarter said:


Since starting it, I've been diagnosed with a problem with my inner ears (Meniere's syndrome) which is taking a bit of a toll on me, and means I probably won't be able to work on the basics - such bus wiring and soldering droppers etc - as much as I had planned. I'd rather get to the point of ballasting and then building the layout sooner, if that's feasible.

So my contentious question is this... given that I only want to power the track, and it's working now, do I need to install bus wiring at all?

 

I'm sort of guessing, but if running bus wires and droppers and the difficulties are with your ears and getting underneath causing problems.

 

Then perhaps you could install all your droppers in from the top and just leave them loose and long underneath. Or coil them up and secure with a staple or two, making them tidy, but accessible. That way you don't have to crawl underneath to terminate them all at once, you can just fix the ones that you find you need to.

 

At least when the wires are attached to the rails, you can go ahead and ballast, knowing that the wiring is in place, if not actually being utilised!

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4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

I'm sort of guessing, but if running bus wires and droppers and the difficulties are with your ears and getting underneath causing problems.

 

Then perhaps you could install all your droppers in from the top and just leave them loose and long underneath. Or coil them up and secure with a staple or two, making them tidy, but accessible. That way you don't have to crawl underneath to terminate them all at once, you can just fix the ones that you find you need to.

 

At least when the wires are attached to the rails, you can go ahead and ballast, knowing that the wiring is in place, if not actually being utilised!

That’s a fair point, as the various connectors to avoid soldering under the board all (presumably) need to be connected up (wires inserted, screws tightened) below the board. If it is working underneath that is the problem, then track connections above the board could still be soldered, albeit you say you are part way through fixing track…… of course, it would be very tricky to solder with track fixed but imho it would be worth lifting track to solder and thus avoid the Hornby power connectors (which I think have to be modified anyway for DCC).

 

That still leaves the challenge of working below the board, but maybe a friend could simply connect everything up using connectors? Or do as suggested by kevinlms.

Edited by ITG
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16 hours ago, latestarter said:

 

 It's all Hornby set track, connected to each other with fishplates.

 

You may well have a problem if you start ballasting and weathering the track.

 

Once you have droppers soldered to the rails, drop them through small holes drilled from the top and subsequent connections can be screw terminals or wago style, no need for soldering under the baseboard.

 

On such a small layout you could run a simple "spine" bus down the middle of the baseboard and connect the droppers to that.

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16 hours ago, latestarter said:

Thanks, that clears it up. So, adding some more of those is the suggestion, I gather? But how are they connected to the controller? My original question was...do I add extra controllers to power connectors on the track, so maybe I'm halfway there. Is it possible to add more power track(s) or clips to one single controller?

 

It helps to think of a DCC "Controller" as 3 separate components...which are separate with some systems.

I think of HiFi as a good analogy.

 

The dial is often known as a 'throttle'. This provides the user interface. Some systems can cope with more throttles than most of will ever need. HiFI analogy is an audio source, like a turntable, CD player, tape deck or radio tuner.

The command system controls the layout. This processes the inputs from all throttles & outputs them into low level control codes for the layout. You need 1 & only ever 1 of these for the entire layout. This is like a Hi-Fi's pre-amplifier.

Boosters take the low level signals & add power to them, like a power amp does in a HiFi If you have a big layout with lots of trains running at once, then you may draw more current than what a small system can output.

 

You have a Hornby Select photographed. This is a complete system in a box (throttle, command system & booster) so you cannot just add another to it. A select can be added to an Elite, but the Elite sees it just as a throttle.

The output could be fed to some sort of booster, but this won't just give you more current. You would need to split the layout into 2 isolated sections & feed each from its own booster (as mentioned, the Select contains its own booster), so each "power district" is fed from its own booster. Trains can pass from 1 power district to the next.

I can run 5 double-headed 8 coach trains at once on my layout & cannot remember seeing it draw more than about 2.5A, so I am confident you do not need to think about power districts & additional boosters.

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Thanks for all the help with this, everyone. A bit more clarification (hope it's not too boring) is below...

When I made the OP, I was feeling that the situation is quite complex, both from a personal perspective and from that of actually getting the layout finished.

The medical issue I have is complex, likely to recur at varying levels  of debilitation and expensive (Ireland, where I live has no 'NHS' to speak of). As an example, right now, as I type this, I've got the timpani section of the LSO playing in my left ear. Last week, I was so physically sick and dizzy that I couldn't walk from one side of the room to the other for 2 days. I've had to cancel the guy who was doing the layout wiring for me, as all my money is going on medical appointments and medication.

So, what I need (if it exists) is the easiest, simplest and cheapest way for me to get to the point where I can start to do the things I might enjoy on the layout. Including ballasting and general modelling. Stuff that I would be more capable of than wiring. The track is pinned down - and this was on the advice of the wiring guy - who is an experienced baseboard builder and layout modeller. 

I like @ITG's suggestion with the block terminals, as it seems like something I could probably do - and would not involve time learning soldering (although I bought the iron) and being under the baseboard.

I'm tempted to just get on and start ballasting, but at the same time, I don't want it all to stop working a few weeks later.

Edited by latestarter
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I understand your frustrations. I like wiring more than most, but even I find it tedious & boring. Getting something running for the first time gives you a huge lift, so from one point of view, you want to get to this stage as quickly as possible.

 

But on the other hand, getting there too quickly involves taking what I would consider to be shortcuts (minimum feeds, large sections, relying on point blades for electrical contact & probably a few other things which I now do from experience without even questioning why).

I have on several occasions been asked to help sort 'a couple of faults' with a layout & found that they are quite fundamental & resulted from the builder taking shortcuts, whether through haste or a lack of knowledge or experience.

 

Can you flip the boards onto their side or even upside down to work on them? Working underneath is a real back breaker even for someone quite fit.

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16 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I understand your frustrations. But on the other hand, getting there too quickly involves taking what I would consider to be shortcuts (minimum feeds, large sections, relying on point blades for electrical contact & probably a few other things which I now do from experience without even questioning why).

 

I''m not sure sure that you do understand my frustrations. This is not (just) about wiring and soldering, and it's certainly not about taking shortcuts. It's about being ill - and wanting to get on with the good bits of railway modelling. Not least because I've spent a fortune on it, so far, but also because I may not want to be bothered (because I'm so ill) next year.

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1 minute ago, latestarter said:

 

I''m not sure sure that you do understand my frustrations. This is not (just) about soldering, and it's certainly not about taking shortcuts. It's about being ill - and wanting to get on with the good bits of railway modelling. Not, least because I've spent a fortune on it, so far, but also because I may not wan to be bothered (because I'm so ill) next year.

 

I do understand your frustrations.

I'll be blunt & honest: You are falling into the same trap that the vast majority of us (including myself) have fallen in to many times. We want something something more complicated than we can get running reliably. We often don't realise it will get too complicated, then we are dissatisfied with the end product because it doesn't work as we wanted it to.

When I was building my first few layouts, I would not have listened to somebody telling me I was being too ambitious.

I really don't meant to be negative. Laying track is ok but wiring it up is boring as hell, which is why less track can often be more fun.

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@Pete the Elaner Try reading my most recent post. I can't even stand up half the time, never mind flip a ton weight baseboard over, or get under it for hours on end to do wiring. It's not about it being boring. It's about me being ill. Please if you can't read posts properly, I would kindly ask that you stop replying to them, to avoid becoming deeply offensive.

Edited by latestarter
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So, what I need (if it exists) is the easiest, simplest and cheapest way for me to get to the point where I can start to do the things I might enjoy on the layout.

 

Oh well, this is cheapest, easiest :)

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/J9tScGjFRqRRYWt89

 

No bus, two droppers and a 9v battery :D

 

Mind you that diamond crossing did eventually turn out to be a bit of a nuisance.

Edited by AndrueC
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44 minutes ago, latestarter said:

@Pete the Elaner Try reading my most recent post. I can't even stand up half the time, never mind flip a ton weight baseboard over, or get under it for hours on end to do wiring. It's not about it being boring. It's about me being ill. Please if you can't read posts properly, I would kindly ask that you stop replying to them, to avoid becoming deeply offensive.

No one can know exactly how you feel, that is why Pete asked the question.

 

What Pete was suggesting if that if the layout can be put on it's side (with assistance), wiring a layout is much easier that way than crawling underneath.

 

Fact is, wiring needs to be done BEFORE you ballast, doing it afterwards is 10 times harder. I did suggest a possible idea earlier, solder drop wires and poke them through holes drilled in the baseboard and then they can be connected later - indeed perhaps never.

 

At least you could get on with the ballasting, if that's what you want to do.

 

But PLEASE don't be tempted to ballast before you solder wires, it's much harder - believe me!

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2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Fact is, wiring needs to be done BEFORE you ballast, doing it afterwards is 10 times harder. I did suggest a possible idea earlier, solder drop wires and poke them through holes drilled in the baseboard and then they can be connected later - indeed perhaps never.At least you could get on with the ballasting, if that's what you want to do. But PLEASE don't be tempted to ballast before you solder wires, it's much harder - believe me!

 

Thanks for the helpful response. I'm going to try the Peco pre-soldered wire/fishplates, as suggested elsewhere in this thread, for now. It will mean I can avoid soldering at least in the short term, and I'll have the wires in place for such time as I'm ready to install a bus wire. I've heard that there might be issues with these, but for me soldering is a bigger issue.

I'm just back from the doctor and pharmacy, even lighter in the wallet, but slightly more hopeful of some periods where I can model without interference from my ears! :)

Edited by latestarter
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Even using terminal blocks, I was perhaps wrongly assuming you’d fit them under the baseboard, so that all your wiring would be hidden from sight. That way, you could either solder wire to track and drop through holes, or use Hornby power feeds, but still drop through holes. The advantage for you I saw in terminal blocks v solder was that (a) no new skill required (b) much easier to do in small bites. (NB. even using Peco soldered fishplates, you may have to poke cables through holes to connect, as you’ll have a lot of wiring on the board surface otherwise).

 

But I guess you could leave most of the wiring on the surface? Even locate terminal blocks on the surface? If you are going to give the full scenic treatment , you could hide 99% of that. But, two other considerations…..

1. access for fault finding

2. as you have sidings in the centre, it may be tricky to get feeds to them without some holes in the board

 

The dilemma you have is that you could stay with exactly what you’ve got and do no more; after all, it works! But the collective wisdom on this forum, often learnt the hard way, is that a single feed, unsoldered at that, tends to build in unreliability. It could be worst possible scenario if you are part-sceniced , and then gremlins creep in to disrupt operation. Sometimes, these gremlins will be caused by actually doing scenic work….. paint, glue and electricity, and leaning across the board, don’t work well together!

Edited by ITG
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So, with encouragement from you guys, including @RobinofLoxley and @ITG and others, I have installed my first (8) dropper wires. I used the Peco Power feed joiners (wires pre-soldered to fishplates). I know that these are frowned on in some quarters, but considering I almost didn't do anything about droppers at all, it feels like progress. 

I used 2 packets (8 pairs) and they are installed at the locations shown by the wagons and the locos in the photo. This may be an issue, as they are (mostly) all at the front end of the baseboard, nearest to where I will be controlling the layout.

The main reason for this is that those areas are sidings, and I had already pinned down the track (as I had envisioned the wires being soldered - which is unlikely to happen for a while. But I can add more at the back, if needed.   

My intention is to have the droppers there in preparation for the bus wiring, which may be a bit further down the line. I know this will raise some eyebrows, but consider me as a Luddite using my first 'Spinning Jenny' and thinking it may not be such a bad thing after all.

 

Droppers close up.jpg

Dropprs baseboard.jpg

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