How does steam heating work?

[David Charwelton]

The title says it all but I can't work out if is is a circuit and how the condensate in the pipes is removed.

[Blandford1969]

Simple way to look at it is a long pressurised pipe. Steam is pushed down the pipe from a reducing valve. These days for us about 40psi on average. That builds up pressure all along the pipework from the front of the engine to the back coach. There are drip valves on the engine and every coach at the lowest point on the pipe so that any water which condenses comes out through those. 

[Blandford1969]

I should add that therefore there is no circuit the steam or condensed water does not return to the engine.

[Bulleidnutter]

Under every coach there is a drip/ relief valve at the lowest point, which captures any condensation and then vents/ drips, there are also relief valves on either end with the shut off valve.

We test our coaches to 60 psi but as Blandford says we never need to go over 40psi. 

There are a myriad of connections off the main steam pipe under coaches to supply all the radiators. 

 

As long as a fireman doesnt forget to open the coaches valve when connecting the two. You can get the train warm relatively quickly. If he forgets. Theres a loud bang. Lots of noise and steam and 15 -20 minutes changing the bags. 

[25901]

14 hours ago, Blandford1969 said:

These days for us about 40psi on average. 

Last asthmatic steam boilered 25 I was on only made 10psi. Low on steam and power, and she's penciled in for mainline lol

Edited November 23, 2021 by 25901

[peach james]

100 lb here :), the returns are about 4/5ths what we send out...

Oh, on a railway...well, you push steam (at some moderate, but appropriate pressure) down the lines.  You make sure you are sending steam, not water, as alas water is merely steam that has had most of its heat taken away, and that makes the passengers angry.  (though not as angry as when the whole lot freezes solid at -40 and they get no heat...).  

Said steam is then tapped off to feed radiators of various sizes/locations.  It can also be used to provide AC in the summer time (no, I'm not joking...).  The steam is condensed in the radiators to water, which is then allowed to escape onto the track to create a nice frozen wasteland for the next train to traverse :).  (it's not that much water...)

Typical steam flows on the ship from Vapor Clarkson boilers was 100 PSI / ~ 1000 lb/hr.  We used the same ones on the ship as some DE locos, but in a closed feed system (some returns returned...).  The boilers are about 4' square, by 6' high.  (sorry, my images got purged in the <1000 Flickr image purge...).  Steam pressure could be set by adjusting the butterfly valve (control valve, did air/fuel/water).  We used 100 PSI, but had no flex pipes to worry about.

Here @ work, I just make the steam.   I only know our single radiator in the building is fed at ~10 psi from a reducer, and we use the condensate for filling our chemical tanks with water :).  98% of what I make goes to heat other buildings, and we do get back about 4/5ths of what we send out.  

James

[peach james]

The Vapor-Clarkson steam generator (it's not a boiler...go on, say it like "it's only a flesh wound" and have a laugh !)  has a steam separator.  This is a centrifugal acting thing that separates out the water (about 5%) from the Sat steam that is the primary output.  If you don't blow down said separator often enough, you end up with water hammer throughout your system, which tends to end up with pipes that break.  There are thermal overtemperature controls on the steam output, so that you are not sending superheated steam downrange into stuff (like rubber hoses) that are not designed for it at all.  There is also a high stack cut-out, and a fire detection system (making sure there is a fire, in this case...).  We had our original controls until about 2006, when they started monkeying with them and replaced some of the bits with PLC's rather than Relays.  Result:  One very large fireball in Qingdao, China.  One roundsman with an immediate requirement for new pants.  What makes it worse is it wasn't the first fireball- that one had me with a CO2 in about .5 seconds when it blasted across the space...  

[eastwestdivide]

Similar thread over here:

 

[Tom Burnham]

No doubt heritage railways that run Santa Specials are busy making sure their steam heating is all in working order!

[25901]

23 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

No doubt heritage railways that run Santa Specials are busy making sure their steam heating is all in working order!

Or like most you put an ETH diesel on the back

[Tom Burnham]

Wot no photos of Santa surrounded by wreaths of steam curling up from the edge of the platform?  Actually I'd have thought ETH carriages were rare on heritage lines but maybe the ones I visit more often aren't typical.

[Nearholmer]

I can’t see the man himself, but this is the Princes Risborough line on Christmas Eve 2019. They had a Class 33 (ETH only) on one end, and 45xx on the other, I think because the runaround loop wasn’t yet finished.

[Blandford1969]

3 hours ago, 25901 said:

Or like most you put an ETH diesel on the back

Not sure about most, maybe some and those that use Mk2 coaches, however many have removed ETH from Mk1's as its extra to maintain. 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Blandford1969 said:

Not sure about most, maybe some and those that use Mk2 coaches, however many have removed ETH from Mk1's as its extra to maintain. 

Must be cold in those non-ETH coaches when the steam loco is removed from the train..?

 

Not many steam heat diesels on the mainline these days, even fewer using it.

 

The trips ive done generally are Dual braked, Dual heat.

 

WCME is always a treat, 86259 keeps you like an oven from Euston to Carnforth, but after that it sometimes gets a bit grim up north in the February for the rest of the day until your back at Lostock Hall and 86259 came back.  About 10 years back WCRC would couple up one of the ACLG locos to do a bit of pre-heating in the platforms at Carlilse, one trip I recall came a bit icy inside when the steam loco was using all it had just to move us through a Blea moor blizzard… the choice was to be warm or to get home that day.

Edited November 23, 2021 by adb968008

[25901]

adb968008 will agree with me that steam heat maintenance costs more in time and money. More importantly stock can be kept warm during the week or when not in use, an ETH landline has saved many a coach. Steam heat leaks causing internal condensation is not a good show to the paying public who want a prefect day for their kids.

[Phil Bullock]

3 hours ago, Blandford1969 said:

Not sure about most, maybe some and those that use Mk2 coaches, however many have removed ETH from Mk1's as its extra to maintain. 

And any pre nationalisation stock will be steam heat only..

[DY444]

20 hours ago, peach james said:

The Vapor-Clarkson steam generator (it's not a boiler...go on, say it like "it's only a flesh wound" and have a laugh !)  has a steam separator.  This is a centrifugal acting thing that separates out the water (about 5%) from the Sat steam that is the primary output.  If you don't blow down said separator often enough, you end up with water hammer throughout your system, which tends to end up with pipes that break.  There are thermal overtemperature controls on the steam output, so that you are not sending superheated steam downrange into stuff (like rubber hoses) that are not designed for it at all.  There is also a high stack cut-out, and a fire detection system (making sure there is a fire, in this case...).  We had our original controls until about 2006, when they started monkeying with them and replaced some of the bits with PLC's rather than Relays.  Result:  One very large fireball in Qingdao, China.  One roundsman with an immediate requirement for new pants.  What makes it worse is it wasn't the first fireball- that one had me with a CO2 in about .5 seconds when it blasted across the space...  

 

I don't wish to get into a pedantry/nit picking debate but unless I'm missing something the usual way of producing steam is to boil water.  So why is a device that boils water not a boiler?  The most common definition of a boiler in Google seems to be along the lines of "a fuel-burning apparatus for heating water".  On that basis it seems to me a steam generator is a particular type of boiler and so describing it as such isn't incorrect; after all the steam generator on a steam locomotive is described as a boiler. 

 

I've already got me coat.

[LMS2968]

'Boiler' tends to be used for any device that heats water. For example, there is a drive to move domestic heating systems away from gas 'boilers' to other forms, electric, heat pumps, etc. The domestic heating system contains hot water, not steam, so 'boiler' isn't correct. On the railways, steam was taken from the locomotive boiler - the same one which powered the train - so is correct. With diesels it was necessary to provide a dedicated train heating boiler, which also provided steam, so the terminology is correct.

 

But people use the term 'boiler' when they mean 'water heater' interchangeably, and that's where the error lies.

[jcm@gwr]

22 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

'Boiler' tends to be used for any device that heats water. For example, there is a drive to move domestic heating systems away from gas 'boilers' to other forms, electric, heat pumps, etc. The domestic heating system contains hot water, not steam, so 'boiler' isn't correct. On the railways, steam was taken from the locomotive boiler - the same one which powered the train - so is correct. With diesels it was necessary to provide a dedicated train heating boiler, which also provided steam, so the terminology is correct.

 

But people use the term 'boiler' when they mean 'water heater' interchangeably, and that's where the error lies.

 

Agreed, the last thing you want a domestic 'water heating unit' to do is boil the water!

That causes lots of problems with the system, the only boiler you want in a house, is a

kettle. The yanks call it a furnace, which is just as bad IMHO (visions of steel making)

[KingEdwardII]

21 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

The yanks call it a furnace

With some of the winter temperatures that the northern parts of the USA and Canada experience, a furnace is exactly what you hope to have roaring away in your house - steel and all!

[Titan]

20 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

No doubt heritage railways that run Santa Specials are busy making sure their steam heating is all in working order!

 

15 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Must be cold in those non-ETH coaches when the steam loco is removed from the train..?

 

Not many steam heat diesels on the mainline these days, even fewer using it.

 

The trips ive done generally are Dual braked, Dual heat.

 

 

Might cause less confusion if you actually read what was posted...

[peach james]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

I don't wish to get into a pedantry/nit picking debate but unless I'm missing something the usual way of producing steam is to boil water.  So why is a device that boils water not a boiler?  The most common definition of a boiler in Google seems to be along the lines of "a fuel-burning apparatus for heating water".  On that basis it seems to me a steam generator is a particular type of boiler and so describing it as such isn't incorrect; after all the steam generator on a steam locomotive is described as a boiler. 

 

I've already got me coat.

Na, in this case it has to do with legal definitions of what a boiler is, and who may operate one, and certification of such...a Vapor Clarkson Steam Generator is a monotube steam generator- not a boiler :).   It's somewhat an American response- some US states had very peculiar requirements for certification of Stanley Steam Car owners because they contain a boiler, and not a steam generator.  

In the eyes of code here in BC now, there is no difference- 2 m^2 and under is not a boiler,2-30m^2 requires a power engineer on site/on call (but not directly supervising) and30 m^2 -> requires one supervising.  Hence my job   

[BMS]

Would'nt want to classify a kettle as a boiler ..........It boils water

[Blandford1969]

Out on the Network, yes heating is by ETH.

 

On preserved railways in the main it is Steam Heat, The heat tends to linger quite well once they are well heated. 

[russ p]

22 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

And any pre nationalisation stock will be steam heat only..

 

There were some LMS portholes fitted with ETH not sure if any survive with it