RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 24, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 24, 2021 3 hours ago, russ p said: There were some LMS portholes fitted with ETH not sure if any survive with it Were they the BR built ones? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted November 24, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2021 19 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said: Were they the BR built ones? None of the LMS portholes on the SVR have ETH. In fact there are no coaches with ETH. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted November 24, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2021 Seems odd to me that BR stuck with the diesel locos 'steam generators' as long as they did, given the unreliabilty and general inconvenience they caused, well into the '70s/80s. (IIRC a loco could be declared a failure if the boiler was kaput during 'heating season' - even if it wasn't failed, it still meant a cold train). What was it specifically that tended to cause problems? Even with the prospect of all-ETH stock (eventually), there must've been a better way of providing the steam-heat? (i know there were lots of inefficiences and ways that the heat didn't always make it all the way down a train) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 Eric Langridge's book, Under Ten CMEs Vol 2, goes into the problems. Attempts at using exhaust heat from the diesel engine didn't work because during times of low power output, there wasn't sufficient heat available; several types of stationary boiler were tried, and these were successful in heating the likes of hotels, but objected to the vibrations and being bounced around in a moving locomotive; and ETH worked except it took far more of the engine's power output than had been anticipated. He comments, as I've said before, it hadn't been realised just how much work the old steam loco boiler had been doing. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted November 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 25, 2021 10 hours ago, Phil Bullock said: Were they the BR built ones? I'm not sure Phil. I think they were retro fitted with along with LMS sleepers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 25, 2021 4 minutes ago, russ p said: I'm not sure Phil. I think they were retro fitted with along with LMS sleepers Would make sense for those running on WCML diagrams I guess …. Several sources including Wiki quote the portholes as being BR built to Stanier design. Don’t think Bacchy have done theirs in LMS livery… 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted November 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 25, 2021 14 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said: Would make sense for those running on WCML diagrams I guess …. Several sources including Wiki quote the portholes as being BR built to Stanier design. Don’t think Bacchy have done theirs in LMS livery… I think they were BR built Phil, not sure if other LMS design coaches got ETH, going the opposite way there were some boiler vans converted from LMS BGs for use behind AC electric locos before there were sufficient ETH coaches 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted November 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 25, 2021 32 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said: Would make sense for those running on WCML diagrams I guess …. Several sources including Wiki quote the portholes as being BR built to Stanier design. Don’t think Bacchy have done theirs in LMS livery… From lists I have seen the blue/grey LMS design daytime stock was built 1948 onwards. Early examples originally carried LMS maroon without LMS branding. 10 hours ago, Blandford1969 said: None of the LMS portholes on the SVR have ETH. In fact there are no coaches with ETH. Wasn't one in Blue/Grey when it arrived from BR? Having said that BR did strip gear that was still in regular use at workshops for refurbishment before disposal of stock in those days so any ETH equipment would be a prime target for recovery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted November 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 25, 2021 54 minutes ago, russ p said: I think they were BR built Phil, not sure if other LMS design coaches got ETH, going the opposite way there were some boiler vans converted from LMS BGs for use behind AC electric locos before there were sufficient ETH coaches Yes there was one of the vans at Worcester for a while. D844 also did steam heat duties there 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 9 hours ago, keefer said: Seems odd to me that BR stuck with the diesel locos 'steam generators' as long as they did, given the unreliabilty and general inconvenience they caused, well into the '70s/80s. (IIRC a loco could be declared a failure if the boiler was kaput during 'heating season' - even if it wasn't failed, it still meant a cold train). What was it specifically that tended to cause problems? Even with the prospect of all-ETH stock (eventually), there must've been a better way of providing the steam-heat? (i know there were lots of inefficiences and ways that the heat didn't always make it all the way down a train) Most likely BR being short of money/time. ETH conversion of rolling stock had to be prioritised for the WCML and the Southern Region, for the electric and class 33 hauled services. Then a/c stock was introduced, which necessitated ETH conversions of diesel locos for those services. This meant that other services would have to remain steam heat until BR had the funds/time to convert more locos. This would take us towards the end of the seventies, by which time much steam heat stock would be getting a bit elderly and some would be due for withdrawal over the next few years, so probably not worth upgrading, those last remaining into the early 1980's 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted November 25, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 25, 2021 Isn't there a well known photo of an LMS coach that has arrived at Euston from the frozen north, with lots of icicles over the windows. The train is many hours late, indicating that it must have been a truly awful journey! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 A small number of Southern Maunsell coaches got ETH for working in electrically hauled boat trains (presumably the UIC version of ETH so they could work with the Wagon-Lits sleepers). The Bluebell have one: https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/6686.html 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted November 25, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 25, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said: From lists I have seen the blue/grey LMS design daytime stock was built 1948 onwards. Early examples originally carried LMS maroon without LMS branding. Wasn't one in Blue/Grey when it arrived from BR? Having said that BR did strip gear that was still in regular use at workshops for refurbishment before disposal of stock in those days so any ETH equipment would be a prime target for recovery. I believe so, however as it was in the 70s its before my time. Edited November 25, 2021 by Blandford1969 spelling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted November 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 25, 2021 On 24/11/2021 at 08:24, LMS2968 said: The domestic heating system contains hot water, not steam, so 'boiler' isn't correct. Hope mine isn't - we've got warm air heating 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted November 25, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 25, 2021 55 minutes ago, RedgateModels said: Hope mine isn't - we've got warm air heating Ditto - sort of - boiler/warmer in the loft, then big pipes down to where the warm air unit used to be, now we have a heat exchanger with a hoofing great fan on it. Lovely and warm, and hardly uses any gas. Why people ditch warm air I do not know 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbos Posted November 27, 2021 Share Posted November 27, 2021 On 25/11/2021 at 09:50, Titan said: Most likely BR being short of money/time. ETH conversion of rolling stock had to be prioritised for the WCML and the Southern Region, for the electric and class 33 hauled services. Then a/c stock was introduced, which necessitated ETH conversions of diesel locos for those services. This meant that other services would have to remain steam heat until BR had the funds/time to convert more locos. This would take us towards the end of the seventies, by which time much steam heat stock would be getting a bit elderly and some would be due for withdrawal over the next few years, so probably not worth upgrading, those last remaining into the early 1980's Steam heating ‘officially’ ended on BR in 1987. AFAIK the last steam heated route was the Edinburgh to Dundee semi-fast service using vac braked Mk2s. Diesel locomotives with working steam heat boilers are very rare beasts these nowadays. Brian. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 On 25/11/2021 at 06:58, LMS2968 said: Eric Langridge's book, Under Ten CMEs Vol 2, goes into the problems. Attempts at using exhaust heat from the diesel engine didn't work because during times of low power output, there wasn't sufficient heat available; several types of stationary boiler were tried, and these were successful in heating the likes of hotels, but objected to the vibrations and being bounced around in a moving locomotive; and ETH worked except it took far more of the engine's power output than had been anticipated. He comments, as I've said before, it hadn't been realised just how much work the old steam loco boiler had been doing. The Woodhead electrics, EM2 and the named EM1 locos, I think they had electric element steam heating boilers, the LMR AL1 to AL5 locos, had boiler coaches in the formation, does anyone have photos or details of the boiler coaches? A boiler coach go well with a Bachmann AL5 model Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEdwardII Posted February 12, 2022 Share Posted February 12, 2022 On 27/11/2021 at 00:04, turbos said: Diesel locomotives with working steam heat boilers are very rare beasts these nowadays Except on preserved lines, where they continue to give trouble in the time honoured way. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike 84C Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 I remember the Stones -Vapor as being the most reliable, Spanner Swirliflow could need a lot of face to face attention just to keep it going and the Clayton was dreadful to keep the water balanced in the separator. No wonder I got b--- tinitus! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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