Coal on the ground, near a track.

[Graham Heather]

During the 1950's and 1960's, how much coal would be found along the track?

Would there be enough to see small piles in a yard between the rails?

Did the coal ever build up to a level where there was more coal than ballast, say in a interchange yard?

Would a coal merchant go after every last piece along his track?

Just trying to justify using some loose coal on my layout, other than for wagon loads.

Coal shows out so well in a yard where it has fallen out.

One of the problems of modelling something before your time.

Graham.

[Fat Controller]

There used to be a ridge of coal along the sleeper-ends on my local branch; most of the wagons had holes where the bottoms of the sides had rotted away. If they could, the staff at the loading pit would stuff straw into them to reduce the loss, but they'd not rush to do this if it was raining..

Occasionally, during a hard brake application, bits of wagon-body would crumble away, sometimes causing several tons to fall out. It was amazing to watch a swarm of pensioners arrive, sacks slung over cross-bars; the spillage would disappear in minutes.

[The Johnster]

On the Cynon Valley branch in the late 70s and early 80s, the trains ran slowly enough for local teenagers to run alongside and open the hoppers, which of course was end of sports for that trip.  Local and Railway police did their best but most of the decanted coal disappeared into wheelbarrows, buckets, car boots, backs of vans, carrier bags, pockets, everything and anything really.  Don't know about other coalfields but pilfering coal was regared as a civic duty in South Wales, even after the formation of the NCB in 1947 heralded the era of 'concession coal', and indulged in by all levels of society including clergymen and the professional classes.  Coal spilled on to the ground didn't stay there for long and certainly not long enough to collect in quantity! 

 

The ground surface in coal yards and collieries was mostly slurry or coal dust, especially as the last process before the stuff was loaded into wagons was that it was washed to keep the dust down, so that the result of putting the loaded wagon on a weighbridge before dispatch would be reasonably close to the result from the weighbridge at the recieving end.  An 'angel's share' was allowed, but it wasn't generous.  The weigbridges were an important part of the process, as the customers were billled according to it.  Empty wagons were tared, i.e. weighed empty before being loaded, and their numbers noted, then weighed again when they were loaded, the customer being billed on the difference.  The customer, if he had any sense, weighed the wagon on arrival and much clerical fun was had sorting claim and counter claim if the difference was too great. 

 

So losses in transit were discouraged by the colliery owning company, railway, and customers, and loose coal was collected and reloaded in wagons, at least in theory...

 

There were therefore considerable measures taken to prevent it, not always very successfully.  Certainly any mishap (and incline working with pinned down brakes practically guaranteed these at the bottom of gradients and the ends of sand drags) was regarded as a free for all!  The Cynon Valley hijacks stopped overnight in the 80s when the pit concerned, Tower at Hirwaun, was bought out by it's workforce in defiance of the Coal Board and Government's intention to close it and at a time of savage conflict in the industry, running for another two decades at a profit, the last deep mine in the area.  Anybody who'd tried to hold up a train of Tower coal after this would have had a lot of explaining to do to people who wished him large amounts of harm and were more than capable of providing it!

 

My ex-wife's grandmother told the story of living as a teenager on a farm which backed on to the Taff Vale line near Maesmawr, and, with her sister, showing a leg to the loco crews of passing trains to get a lump or two thrown over the fence in appreciation.  There was also a Canton shed story, possibly apocryphal, about a lady whose back garden adjoined the South Wales Main Line in Leckwith, a western suburb of Cardiff, and at a place where trains were often brought to a stand at a signal.  She hung a china chamber pot, what we called a Gozunda, cos it goes under the bed, from the washing line post as a challenge to the loco crews, who couldn't resist throwing lumps of coal at such a prime target.  Of course, sometimes it would take a hit and get broken, but what she saved on house coal more than paid for the replacements...

[Aire Head]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

, about a lady whose back garden adjoined the South Wales Main Line in Leckwith, a western suburb of Cardiff, and at a place where trains were often brought to a stand at a signal.  She hung a china chamber pot, what we called a Gozunda, cos it goes under the bed, from the washing line post as a challenge to the loco crews, who couldn't resist throwing lumps of coal at such a prime target.  Of course, sometimes it would take a hit and get broken, but what she saved on house coal more than paid for the replacements

 

I have heard a similar story from on the S&C where a women who lived at Dent iirc used to put glass bottles on the top of her wall which was by the refuge siding. The goods trains crews would throw coal at the bottles while standing around waiting and she would collect the lumps that landed in her garden.

[TheQ]

Back around 1970, we went camping in the shelter of a green lane underpass, next to a line that closed in 1958.. A quick wander along the track bed picked up more than enough coal to supplement the wood camp fire. This was in the middle of nowhere so the coal had just fallen off  the tender / fallen through the grate

[br2975]

The tale told by "The Johnster" of nefarious deeds by residents of the Cynon Valley, namely blockading the line, causing trains to come to a halt and then releasing hopper doors on the rearmost wagons meant the train could go neither forward or backward until the coal was 'removed'

.

These activities, combined with other acts of trespass and criminal damage led the BTP to employ occasional 'Q' trains on the effected valleys lines.

.

This would use a Canton Cl.116 DMU set, with several BTP officers on board and shadowed by officers in vehicles on nearby roads, who on being alerted to suspicious trespassers by the observers on the train would sneak up on the trespassers.

.

The 'Q' Trains proved very effective, but one incident that shows it wasn't all plain sailing occurred in the Rhymney Valley when a lump of ballast was thrown at the 'Q' Train went clean through a window and struck a BTP officer on the head, hospitalising him.

.

Luckily, the officer, the late Dennis Giggs ( grandfather of a well known footballer ) made a speedy recovery, and lived to draw his pension.

[Phil Bullock]

And loco crews also supplied friendly signalmen from their tenders although decanting large lumps at speed was fraught with danger …. On at least one occasion…. Allegedly …. A large lump travelling at speed went straight through the signal box locking room door and wrecked the frame, bringing all traffic to an immediate halt. 

[Banger Blue]

22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

There was also a Canton shed story, possibly apocryphal, about a lady whose back garden adjoined the South Wales Main Line in Leckwith, a western suburb of Cardiff, and at a place where trains were often brought to a stand at a signal.  She hung a china chamber pot, what we called a Gozunda, cos it goes under the bed, from the washing line post as a challenge to the loco crews, who couldn't resist throwing lumps of coal at such a prime target.  Of course, sometimes it would take a hit and get broken, but what she saved on house coal more than paid for the replacements...

IIRC that same story (or very similar) is recounted by Harold Gasson in one of his books about his time as a Didcot Fireman.

[The Johnster]

14 hours ago, TheQ said:

This was in the middle of nowhere so the coal had just fallen off  the tender / fallen through the grate

 

Or dropped off the top/out of the sides of 7plankers, which were getting a bit long in the tooth by the 50s.  Surprised the track recovery crews hadn't collected it, perhaps they were on nights and missed it in the dark.  Anything that fell through a grate would have landed in the ashpan and been clinker, not of any use in your campfire.  Falling from tenders/bunkers is possible if the loco is fairly fresh off the shed and fully loaded with coal; later in the duty the level will drop as the fireman removes coal from the bunker door.  A very small amount will be spilled from the footplate, none if the crew know their job and the driver keeps the loco steady so that the fireman has a good footing.

 

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

And loco crews also supplied friendly signalmen from their tenders a

 

By the 70s this situation had reversed, and as a freight guard I occasionally had to beg coal from signaboxes for the van stove.  On one occasion I had the very interesting job of working a train of continuous welded rail for a relaying job in West Wales somewhere from Canton to Carmarthen Jc for relief, 25 mph and 5mph though turnouts, stop every 15 miles for examination, trip took about 7 hours, but an amazing sight from the van to see the load snaking and flexing around curves.  We put inside in the down loop at Miskin, only about 10 miles into the journey, as it was neccessary to wait for a clear path to the next loop, Tremains, on a busy main line.  The train had been under way for nearly 20 hours and the coal in the van was just about exhausted, and while it had been a warm enough afternoon it was now evening and getting cooler; in any case I wanted the stove going in case I wanted a brew up. 

 

The signal box at Miskin was still manned as a gated level crossing, though it was replaced a few weeks later by AHB.  With only a few weeks left, the bunker was full to bursting and the signalman was happy to let me have as much as I wanted, lending me a bucket to carry it back to the van which I threw out on the way past when we eventually got the road.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Whenever we were working in the Kingsbury / Whitacre / Water Orton area in the mid 1960s there was still enough coal about on the track to make a fire to keep you warm in the cabin. Not particularly visible but if you walked about five minutes down one cess and back up the other side you could get often a bucket full. There was a continual stream of trains from colliery to gas works and power station, although large house coal was most likely to come over the top by that time unless there was a badly secured end door, and still a few steam locos fresh off Saltley shed in the other direction. 

My last collection from a loco was probably the last steam engine to visit Curzon Street around Christmas 1966. A Black 5 came in with special parcels train so I relieved the tender of a couple of hundredweight for the Lineman's cabin before it left.

[SED Freightman]

My first official trip on a freight train was from Shepherds Well to Tilmanstone Colliery and back.  The train was formed of a 73 + 10 MCV's which were filled with a front loader at the colliery, the fine coal being heaped quite high above the wagon sides.  I travelled back in the rear cab and once on the move along the branch, even at a fairly sedate speed, the loads started to settle down in the wagons and quite a bit went over the sides.  By the time we arrived back at Sheperds Well the loads had settled down inside the wagons and the spillage had stopped.  With at least three trips per day there must have been a considerable build up of fine coal along the sleeper ends at the colliery end of the branch.

[br2975]

On 23/11/2021 at 23:47, The Johnster said:

The signal box at Miskin was still manned as a gated level crossing, though it was replaced a few weeks later by AHB. 

 Miskin was abolished as a level crossing, replaced by an overbridge due to road improvements in connection with the M4.

.

Miskin 'box had no mains water supply, and H2O was supplied in milk churns; the empties  were picked up by a daily late morning Radyr - Llantrisant freight and filled at Llantrisant, the full churns were dropped off  on the return working to Radyr.

.

An entry in the WTT covered this operation.

Edited November 26, 2021 by br2975

[The Johnster]

Another senior moment to add to my already impressive list. 

[br2975]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Another senior moment to add to my already impressive list. 

Pontsarn, about a mile on the 'up' side of Miskin, and at the other end of the Miskin loops was the one fitted with AHBs

[The Johnster]

Pontsarn was where an idiot in a Capri zigzagged across between the barriers behind the brake van of my up class 8 in front of a down Padd-Swansea doing around 90mph and no more than a dozen wagons away.  The down train was on the crossing before the driver could put the brake in or blow the horn, both of which I heard as we plodded onwards towards Cardiff.  This would have been around 1974/5ish.  I was convinced I’d witnessed a tragedy. 
 

It had been an incredibly near miss, a matter of feet or even inches rather than yards.  You could see what the Capri jockey was about to do and I’d tried to signal to him that there was a down train he couldn’t see bearing down on the scene, but he was having none of it and gave me a handsignal of his own…. The Landore driver of the down express later told me that he had the impression that the car had emerged unscathed from beneath him as it had disappeared below his line of sight and reappeared in his left peripheral through the cab side window.  Capri idiot must’ve has the fright of his life.  Good. 

[NorthEndCab]

If you take a walk along the Monsal Trail between Bakewell and Millers Dale there’s still lumps of coal to be found in what would have been the cess. Seems to be much more in what would have been the down line. 

[Michael Crofts]

 

Some photos to suggest how much coal might be left on the ground in the 1950s and '60s. My guess is that a lot would depend on the surface (whether it was loose or tarmac/concrete), and there would be no lumps left behind., but I suspect that where volumes were large and mechanical handling was used, front loaders for example, there would be more. I can imagine the men in the pictures of Hassocks picking up spillage quite carefully, but in the photo of Redbourn the foreground suggests a front loader has been used and it would be tad unusual to see the driver of a machine getting out of the cab to pick up spillage.

 

Ian Nolan - Barcombe Station yard, 1960:

 

Ian Nolan -  same location 1960

 

Photos by Arthur Jenner, posted by Linda Chen - Hassocks, 1950s

 

One of my favourite railway photos (but I'm glad this wasn't my work):

 

 

  

 

 

Dan Quine - Llanfair Caereinion 1955 (pre-preservation)

 

"Trains & Travel" of Flickr - Redbourn 1963

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Michael Crofts
inserted gaps between images

[Nearholmer]

Not sure if it’s been mentioned already, but coal wasn’t cheap, certainly not where we lived deep in Sussex, so the issue was more about it getting stolen, than about any being left lying about loose. I don’t know how secure the goods yard at the station was, but one merchant had a yard about a mile from the station, off the village green, and that was kept well secured. During the great freeze of early 1963, when coal was both in great demand and short supply, someone started pilfering it from our bunker at home.

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

17 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Not sure if it’s been mentioned already, but coal wasn’t cheap, certainly not where we lived deep in Sussex, so the issue was more about it getting stolen, than about any being left lying about loose. 

My grandfather was a pitman in Northumberland.  He got "free" coal as part of his remuneration and it was delivered loose by a tipper lorry which deposited a few tons of it in the street.  In mining areas of course everybody in the street worked in the pit, so when the  delivery was made, there would be a series of piles all along the road.   I remember as a boy helping him shovel it into a wheelbarrow so it could be pushed through the archway which connected the terraced houses together, for storage in a brick coal bunker in the back garden. I believe this entitlement came about as part of the Nationalisation and that some ex-miners and their widows are still entitled to this or a cash allowance in lieu.

[The Johnster]

'Concession' coal was a result of the nationalisation of the industry, which promised to deliver several reforms such as pithead baths at all pits, and eventually did.  In areas like the South Wales valleys which were very strongly reliant on coal mining for employment with little alternative work available, it was a huge influence on local economies, freeing up disposable income for other purposes and reducing, but never eliminating, pilferage. 

 

Pithead baths meant the end of the tin bath in front of the kitchen fire that was a feature of miners' cottages.  The men would come home dirty, and the tin, actually zinc, bath would be waiting for them with top-up water boiling on the coal fire stove, along with a tub for the clothes. This was also a serious financial burden on the miners and their families, the fuel costs being considerable and the whole thing being a heavy burden on the lady of the house; some houses would have several men coming home needing large quanties of hot water, and some took in lodgers who were also miners.  Or surface workers; they got pretty dirty as well.  If they were on different shifts, heating water woud be a day long continuous grind and fires had to be kept going all year round to keep the supply going.  Pithead baths or showers, and dirty clothes lockers at the pitheads, meant that the men came home a little later, but clean, no doubt demainding tea which needed hot water, but in much lesser quantities.  A big kettle would be singing on the stove 24/7 anyway.

 

Miners' Workmen's trains had 'clean' and 'dirty' compartments for this purpose, dirty compartments having the upholstery removed so that the compartment could be cleanded by hosing it out.  The 'clean' compartments were for the use of clerical and other staff such as shunters, who just got ordinary work dirty, not quite as filthy as their colleages underground or doing manual work at the surface.  Collieries were pretty dirty environments, and even with the coal being washed to keep the dust down, pre-washery surface operations such as screening created huge amounts of coal dust to add to the general spillage and the smoke from the boilerhouse chimneys.  The overhead buckets from the screens would drop overspill everywhere, and a general dark miasma pervaded the locality.  If the weather was dry (dry? South Wales? shurely shome mishtake?) dust got everywhere, and when it was wet, slurry got everywhere.  The washery outlet drained into the river, which was crystal coming off the mountain but a black sludge below the first outlet it encountered*...  The workmen's services were usually withdrawn when baths were built, and replaced by hired or NCB owned buses.

 

Pre-nationalisation, some pits had pithead baths or showers, but the cost of using them was usually deducted from the mens' wages, and some employers gave concessionary or reduced cost coal, but these were very much in the minority.

 

 

*In the hot summer of 1976, when I was working passenger trains on the Valleys, the section alongside the River Taff north of Radyr station stank from this black sludge which, below the Treforest industrial estate, was mixed with all sorts of unmentionable chemical pollution; there were printers, film developers, chemical processes, all sorts going on up there. The river was low and stagnant, and at night you could see blue flames from the methane bubbles that came to the surface.  Salmon swim there now; they had to build a fish ladder at the wier for them...

[KingEdwardII]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

In the hot summer of 1976,

That summer, I worked in the water works at Treforest Ind. Estate, which abstracted water from the Taff and treated it for use in the factories on the estate. One day there was a major panic when the routine chemical tests on the water went haywire and indicated something serious was wrong. It took the duty chemist a while to identify what was going on - there was Cyanide in the water. 

 

Turns out there had been a major leak from some kind of tailings pond at the "Phurnacite Plant" in the Aberdare valley, which made smokeless fuel (and seemed to dump most of the smoke into the Aberdare valley). This was the source of the cyanide - and it killed various life forms in the river, which is what caused the routine tests to give some extreme values (there was no routine test for cyanide!).

 

Turned out that the choice of summer job couldn't be better that year. At home, water was cut off 17 hours a day because of the drought. At work, I could have a shower whenever I wanted (although not the cyanide version...).

 

Yours, Mike.

[KingEdwardII]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Pithead baths meant the end of the tin bath

My own grandfather saw off his tin bath just after the war by constructing an extension on the back of his valley terraced house, that contained a proper bathroom and a kitchen - no more washing in front of the fire. My dad's first piece of DIY when he bought his first house in the 1950s was to add a bathroom. One of my early memories is of him on a ladder applying a blowtorch to the iron waste pipe from that bathroom in the freezing winter of 1962/63 - a tap had been left dripping in the bathroom and this froze solid in the waste pipe, blocking it. 

[DCB]

A lot of coal swiftly crumbles to dust with handling.   10% of the GWR loco coal was calculated to be lost as dust when a mechanical plant like the LNER/LMS  used was employed (Holcroft Locomotive Adventure) 

Coal dust caked with mud was the usual surface of coal yards and cinders, also with traces of coal and quite black, were widely used as paths beside the tracks. As has been said local urchins would rapidly spirit away spilt coal despite much of it not being house coal and almost impossible to burn in a domestic grate.  House coal was mined in the Gloucestershire end of the South Wales Valleys, just East of the GWR's pits producing Loco Coal.  Steam coal was the central / western end and very soft slow burning and essentially useless for locomotives and probably worse in open fires.

[TheQ]

18 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

Pithead baths meant the end of the tin bath in front of the kitchen fire that was a feature of miners' cottages.  

 

 

But  it didn't, many houses didn't have a bathroom long after pithead baths came about, so the Wives and Children still used tin baths.  SWMBO can remember the Tin bath till the late 1960s, She was born 1960, her dad was a steelworker.

My grandfather  (mums side) got their bathroom about 62, he was a ganger on the railways..

Edited November 29, 2021 by TheQ

[jcm@gwr]

7 minutes ago, TheQ said:

But  it didn't, many houses didn't have a bathroom long after pithead baths came about, so the Wives and Children still used tin baths.  SWMBO can remember the Tin bath till the late 1960s, She was born 1960, her dad was a steelworker.

My grandfather  (mums side) got their bathroom about 62, he was a ganger on the railways..

 

But it probably meant the end of the constant daily use, it mainly

got used at the weekends after the introduction of pit head baths.