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New hst


jonnyuk
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On 23/11/2021 at 19:59, romley midland said:


Just a thought but seeing as the same gent was at Crewe earlier in the series to check the colour of the APT, I wouldn’t be surprised if both visits were in fact a single visit filmed all at once which would make a lot of sense. I would think it likely that a lot of it staged for the TV show anyway. They would probably visit other sites if doing a serious job of a new HST, but for the TV show to have the same chap visit various places to see the same thing could get a bit boring pretty quickly I reckon!

 

those kinds of visits, just to grab a few photos, are totally staged for TV IMO, I mean ignoring some of them dont appear to be capturing the photos with accurate measurements or setups to compare against in analysis later, not even sight of a grey card to set white balance for proper colour reproduction, do we really believe Hornby dont already have an extensive back catalogue library of photos of an HST they can already review from their office, let alone the masses of photos a click away in an internet search engine, plus the masses of books and design documents, if anything theres probably too much info on the HST to distill it down sensibly.

 

and yes it was almost certainly combined with the APT visit, but then someone said the webcam they checked previsit had a May 2021 date on it, would they really not have locked the paint for the APT down by that point already...and then you are back to...and its totally staged for TV again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I have just been looking at images of the Oxford Mark 3 models online, it seems that the Oxford tooling for the buffet already has the square HST roof hatches as all the buffet vehicles so far produced by Oxford have been to represent vehicles originally built as HSTs but then subsequently converted to loco-hauled stock (the conversion did not involve changing the roof hatches). So the 'interesting' vehicle is the TF/TS vehicle at the back of the picture with the square hatches, as I can't find any evidence of this having been previously used by Oxford - so it would suggest this is some tweak to the tooling (or pre-existing tooling not so far used). It is not clear to me what it represents though - is it possible it represent an HST TF/TS vehicle that has been converted to a loco-hauled TF/TS vehicle (assuming some were converted at some point?) as it still retains its buffers, which would be wrong for an HST vehicle...

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I wouldn't try to make any sense of details on the Oxford mk3, the RFM has the kitchen side window layout of the version converted from FOs or the first 2 HST ones, the corridor side has the window layout of the HST or RUB type and the underframe and roof are the RUB type, 

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21 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

Any stock that is with a retailer is stock that Hornby HAVE made a profit on, regardless of how little profit that retailer might make with it eventually.

 

Not necessarily - if Hornby themselves are struggling to shift stock, they may have to sell to the retailers at a loss.

 

As mentioned in the programme, Hornby have been making a loss for many years. I can't imagine that in that circumstance, everything that was sold to retailers was sold at a profit.

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1 hour ago, scouse889 said:

I have just been looking at images of the Oxford Mark 3 models online, it seems that the Oxford tooling for the buffet already has the square HST roof hatches as all the buffet vehicles so far produced by Oxford have been to represent vehicles originally built as HSTs but then subsequently converted to loco-hauled stock (the conversion did not involve changing the roof hatches). So the 'interesting' vehicle is the TF/TS vehicle at the back of the picture with the square hatches, as I can't find any evidence of this having been previously used by Oxford - so it would suggest this is some tweak to the tooling (or pre-existing tooling not so far used). It is not clear to me what it represents though - is it possible it represent an HST TF/TS vehicle that has been converted to a loco-hauled TF/TS vehicle (assuming some were converted at some point?) as it still retains its buffers, which would be wrong for an HST vehicle...

All Mk3 catering vehicles were built with the single square end roof  hatches from new - even the loco hauled ones. The Mk3 catering vehicles were built after the original SO and FO WCML loco hauled vehicles. The Jouef Buffet is incorrect in this regard.

Edited by andyman7
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It is an interesting turn of events. I’ve seen rumblings from accurascale and remember one of their chaps who used to be at Hornby said they had no plans for a new MK3 other than the SD whilst he was there. I personally think Hornby are going about the wrong way if they want to compete with a new model. Just cut the price of the current super-detail one, or release a smattering of popular liveries with the railroad tooling. I don’t think a tiny retool that doesn’t fix the main issues, Cab rake angle, slats and lack of variations (bogies+lights etc) will not convert people over from a new model. A new MK3 has got to be on the cards. I own a few Hornby Hst rakes, think 15 pairs of powercars now and I really enjoy them, but the Limby Mk3s really stand out like a sour thumb now. The only way I can really see them clinging on, is if Hornby do a load of exclusives. Maybe someone has already talked to locomotion and done 43 102? Although I expect to see that soon. As for the consumer it’s great to see. More competition is better for us and we might even get a 41 out of it! Fingers crossed

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On 23/11/2021 at 10:05, BR Blue said:

It is the coaches that let the current model down the most in my opinion. I know they have re-tooled the later versions but there was no mention of new coaches. They were comparing the old CAD of the power car to photographs and pointing out errors in position and size of windows, hinges etc. so it does look like there is going to be a fully retooled power car. It is not just internal changes for speakers and a change to the position of the coupling hook. We will be able to run a newly tooled model with ancient coaches including a mismatched TGS and vent-less buffet car. Hopefully coaches are coming next.

AIUI, there are/were at least two variants of the former guard's door on HST power cars, so has Hornby corrected an error, or just changed it to a different version?

 

Agree that the coaches are far more in need of sorting out, though. The current range is just a cobble-up.

 

John 

Edited by Dunsignalling
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On 22/11/2021 at 22:42, Markn said:

On the show, they photographed and measured the ex FGW powercar at Crewe Heritage Centre, then 're-vamped' their current offering around the rear doors, front lights and coupling mechanism.  They also mentioned that a double sugar cube speaker would be present and new led lighting functions.  It looked pretty good!  Especially the coupling!

 

Such a shame the FGW set are finally being re-released on the old chassis :-(

 

I'd be wondering whether basing the model on that one at Crewe Heritage Centre is a good idea bearing in mind the stripped out shell state it arrived at Crewe not all that long ago. They've done well to restore the exterior so quickly, but I'd be concerned in case some of the filled in holes are not representative of the whole fleet. Surely it would have been better to use one of the ones retired in a running state and with preservation groups.

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17 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

Hoping its the new tooled version. a 'cheap' way of getting an extra power car model (albeit unpowered)....!

It would be stupid coupled to otherwise cam-coupling vehicles if it retains the stupid bar arrangement. Then again technically it should be used with the new Mk4s as the Class 43 DVT specifically pre-dates the Mk4/DVT sets....

 

My only disappointment of the clips of the new tooled version is that they seem to be continuing with the plastic chassis in the Dummy car. I was really hoping it would end up as a fully weighted and unpowered (no motor/gears) offering so that, if one wants, it would be possible to have two powered power cars, without having to purchase two power/dummy sets.

 

The Class 43 DVTs worked with Mk3 HST sets only and normally either a Class 91 or the 89 at the other end because the electric locos weren't compatible with the HST ETH supply so the HST DVT provided that. I dont think the Class 43 DVTs ever worked with Mk4s, were the Mk4 DVTs not available at the same time as the coaches?

 

For some reason, Hornby included the Class 43 DVT with the Mk4 announcement, but other than being seen together around the same time, I'm not sure why.

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16 hours ago, G-BOAF said:
20 hours ago, Cbpete said:

So does this mean the 'new' Hornby MkIII HST coaches will actuall be the wrongly-scaled Oxford versions

When you say wrongly scaled, what exactly is

wrong? I know about the underframe modules being totally wrong but was told they weren’t when I questioned OR at Warley!

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38 minutes ago, Wolf27 said:

When you say wrongly scaled, what exactly is

wrong? I know about the underframe modules being totally wrong but was told they weren’t when I questioned OR at Warley!

 

The relevant discussion is here...

 

I'd not realised the scaling error with these over and above the underframe issues, Some of the Oxford CAD might be repurpose-able if the scaling error is corrected, but would still need extensive rejigging.

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i was surprised when SK referred to a new HST from another manu.    IMHO the Hornby model is absolutely pukka for 4mm but i still think theres scopes for some better Mk3s over the Oxford Rail version.  Still think the old Lima range of mk3s was pretty good TBH bar the lack of tinted glazing over sized d couplings and crude gangways.   To see a good loco hauled Mk3a from Accura would be great as you know if would be the bees knees at a decent price with lighting too and no doubt easily convertable to EM/P4 gauge.    on the power car front i dont see theres much of a market for another entrant unless you want to move away from the ancient 8 pin dcc.

 

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19 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

The relevant discussion is here...

 

I'd not realised the scaling error with these over and above the underframe issues, Some of the Oxford CAD might be repurpose-able if the scaling error is corrected, but would still need extensive rejigging.

Not really much on an error, 1:76 versus 1:76.2 being <0.3%, I challenge anybody to recognise that level of error without measuring it (with a very accurate measuring stick)

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4 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Not really much on an error, 1:76 versus 1:76.2 being <0.3%, I challenge anybody to recognise that level of error without measuring it (with a very accurate measuring stick)

 

I'd be surprised if there isn't significantly bigger errors in there, the angle of the underframe looks visibly wrong, I dont think you'd pick that up if it was just 0.3% different

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20 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

I'd be surprised if there isn't significantly bigger errors in there, the angle of the underframe looks visibly wrong, I dont think you'd pick that up if it was just 0.3% different

A scaling error shouldn't have any effect on angles, so long as it is out by the same amount both vertically and horizontally. 

 

John

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40 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Not really much on an error, 1:76 versus 1:76.2 being <0.3%, I challenge anybody to recognise that level of error without measuring it (with a very accurate measuring stick)

 

Which is why I think it was missed in reviews (also being overscale rather than under).  I suspect there has been/will be a bit of soul searching going on Hornby as to what to do with the Oxford tooling.  Do you just do more runs with the glaring error (lowest cost) or do you correct that glaring error and tool up a new (but wrong scale) underframe?  Or an even more costly solution? 

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I'd suggest that Hornby need to bite the bullet and produce properly accurate HST coaches. If they don't, the "somebody else" that supposedly prompted their attention to the power cars will have a field day.

 

They might be able to salvage something from the existing range or the OR ones via Railroad.

 

John

 

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 We need to be mindful that the announcement would have been recorded somewhile back. So not as some may suggest a knee jerk as another may well announce a new 00 version shortly. TV programmes are unlike social media, unless they are live broadcast.

 

THe LSL Blue Pullman with 'cyclops' light' CAD have been shown awhile back now. So could or might not be  acomplete new body form. The trick today is to create a set of moulds that can cater for different styles, so you can 'drop in' body differences.

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5 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Must have been a VERY quick restoration of that Crewe power car - judging by the rust holes on the back end! I wonder if Hornby will model those?

It was repainted BR Blue, the cab has seen a ton of work, they are now making new interior panels.

 

The cosmetic restoration on facebook shows good progress, on facebook look up 43018 restoration. Crewe also has 43081 also, which is mechanically complete and just restarted, its the 8000th locomotive built at Crewe.

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Strange! Usually when a punter challenges a manufacturer at a show, they absolutely love it :)

The chap I spoke said he knew it was correct as he was holding the tape measure. Make of that what you will but its still to wide as I have measured one myself.

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24 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

They might be able to salvage something from the existing range or the OR ones via Railroad.

 

The existing Hornby stock (pre-SD) is pretty much Railroady already so they could fill out Railroad trainsets with those happily.  The Oxford price point was damn near Railroad prices already so maybe they could be produced to a price point (remove the fiddly bits, CCM and bodge existing Hornby bogies with couplers attached).

 

Am I correct in thinking that the Oxford ones don't have CDL gubbins on them?

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12 hours ago, Wolf27 said:

The chap I spoke said he knew it was correct as he was holding the tape measure. Make of that what you will but its still to wide as I have measured one myself.

 

I liked someones response when he said that as to 'whether it was the skilled end or not' ... ;)

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20 hours ago, ThaneofFife said:

i was surprised when SK referred to a new HST from another manu.    IMHO the Hornby model is absolutely pukka for 4mm but i still think theres scopes for some better Mk3s over the Oxford Rail version.  Still think the old Lima range of mk3s was pretty good TBH bar the lack of tinted glazing over sized d couplings and crude gangways.   To see a good loco hauled Mk3a from Accura would be great as you know if would be the bees knees at a decent price with lighting too and no doubt easily convertable to EM/P4 gauge.    on the power car front i dont see theres much of a market for another entrant unless you want to move away from the ancient 8 pin dcc.

 

I still prefer the Lima coaches, add flushglazing and tidy them up a bit and they are better than the Hornby scale length. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY seems to care about the interior layout so they can give us whatever they want again and there will be no moans when they give us 48 seat first class layouts in TS vehicles or 72 seat layouts wrong for every livery post 1985 that lack the signature seat to window misalignment on the real thing. Oxford had their chance and blew it, see the woeful Virgin TSO for details.

 

Echoing other comments, there are still a lot of liveries missed by Hornby on their existing HST cars whilst they chase the latest celebrity (pretty much all those between 1997 and 2007), or issued once with insufficient quantities (eg IC Executive). And no, I still don't know why people want opening cab doors or fans that spin around either...

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