New hst

[Northmoor MPD]

Echoing what others have said, I’d love if Hornby did some new liveries on the Railroad (Old Lima) HST!

East Midlands trains, East Midlands Railway & Midland Mainline Rio would all sell well. I’d have a few packs myself… 
…and they’d be a 3rd of the price of a newly tooled one which would keep my wallet (and wife) happy! 

[DaveClass47]

Here’s my take on it… for what it’s worth.

 

The Hornby power cars are an excellent model. Yes, there are flaws in it, but what model doesn’t have minor flaws?! the mound line on the cab irritates some, as do those opening cab doors. And limiting 8 pin interface and constantly lit cab light. Plus, Someone I spoke to was spitting blood that the current one has the wrong number of horizontal slats on its side grille… I mean really?! … ding ding… all aboard the looney bus! 

 

I’ve a ‘few’ of Hornby HST. And I love them. Fantastic lookers and runners. 
 

I also have a ‘few more’ MK3… not fantastic. That TGS should be consigned to the bin! And how many times can Hornby balls up a buffet car?!
 

So on hearing that Hornby were updating (doesn’t look by any stretch like a retool), I contacted the powers at Hornby and asked them not to forget the MK3 retool! As that’s the weak link in the HST set. Which might be a reason the rival brand is moving in! They see an opportunity!
 

So, who’s doing it? Who knows. I know who isn’t.  So let’s think;

 

Bachmann: it would be brilliant. BUT newly tooled mk3, with lights… hitting £95-100 per coach (based on their MK2F). Power cars at £350-400. A total of £1100-1200 for a train. Unaffordable. The Hornby train at £500+ is bad enough. 
 

Heljan; unlikely! They don’t do coaches really! And would they really top Hornby’s one? Would they get the shape right? (Based on the apparently incorrectly shaped 25 and O gauge 47).
 

Accurascale: wouldn’t it be good? but maybe they’re busy just now. Hi spec and affordable. 
 

Cavalex; who knows! But after the 91 thing maybe not. 
 

Dapol; would they? Their n gauge one is erm…. Well. 

 

Rapido; how long would that take to arrive?! anything but Rapid-o I’d suggest. 
 

My guess is that Hornby update theirs, use the mk3SD tooling as a basis for the new mk3 slam doors, tooling new bodies to suit. Adding a couple of £ to the retail price. 
 

A rival comes along, if it’s Bachmann it will be an elite product for those with £££, while the rest happily keep buying Hornby’s detailed power cars. 

 

WHOEVER does it and what ever Hornby release… PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE… no more awful greeny falcon grey, wonky cantrail stripes and wonky INTERCITY legends. We want lighter BR blue and flawless paint finishes through out. Fed up getting second rate D&E stuff from The red box brigade. New Mk3’s! Now. 

 

I’ll shut up now.  ;-)
 

Edited November 26, 2021 by DaveClass47

[DaveClass47]

On 23/11/2021 at 22:23, Markwj said:

So is the existing tooling going to be used for the R40162 HST power car driving van trailer before it’s retired?

Guess only Hornby can tell us.

I hope they give us the ‘new’ one :-) also, the Pullman is delayed….maybe they are updating that release too.

[mdvle]

19 hours ago, DaveClass47 said:

Plus, Someone I spoke to was spitting blood that the current one has the wrong number of horizontal slats on its side grille… I mean really?! … ding ding… all aboard the looney bus! 

 

I would point out that today's mostly accurate models are the result of those people you are calling crazy.

 

19 hours ago, DaveClass47 said:

So, who’s doing it? Who knows. I know who isn’t.  So let’s think;

 

Bachmann: it would be brilliant. BUT newly tooled mk3, with lights… hitting £95-100 per coach (based on their MK2F). Power cars at £350-400. A total of £1100-1200 for a train. Unaffordable. The Hornby train at £500+ is bad enough. 

 

There is lots of evidence that the market isn't as price averse as many like to think.

 

19 hours ago, DaveClass47 said:

Heljan; unlikely! They don’t do coaches really! And would they really top Hornby’s one? Would they get the shape right? (Based on the apparently incorrectly shaped 25 and O gauge 47).

 

And also prior to the current UK staff.

 

Note that the current UK staff OO Class 47 looks to be going up against the Bachmann version quite well.

 

19 hours ago, DaveClass47 said:

Accurascale: wouldn’t it be good? but maybe they’re busy just now. Hi spec and affordable. 
 

Cavalex; who knows! But after the 91 thing maybe not. 
 

Dapol; would they? Their n gauge one is erm…. Well. 

 

Rapido; how long would that take to arrive?! anything but Rapid-o I’d suggest. 

 

My guess is that if anyone else is doing an HST (as in power cars and Mk3 coaches) it will:

• be someone with decent financials - that is a lot of tooling cost to allow for the variety of Mk3 coaches
• it won't be (at least planned to be)  announced until fully tooled and ready to come to market to help prevent/reduce the time Hornby has to react (yes, if it exists Hornby have become aware of it - but we don't know how far along a competing HST - if it exists - got before Hornby became aware of it
• long shot - this is a fake to distract Hornby from what the competitor actually is doing.

 

 

 

 

 

[DaveClass47]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I would point out that today's mostly accurate models are the result of those people you are calling crazy.

 

 

There is lots of evidence that the market isn't as price averse as many like to think.

 

 

And also prior to the current UK staff.

 

Note that the current UK staff OO Class 47 looks to be going up against the Bachmann version quite well.

 

 

My guess is that if anyone else is doing an HST (as in power cars and Mk3 coaches) it will:

• be someone with decent financials - that is a lot of tooling cost to allow for the variety of Mk3 coaches
• it won't be (at least planned to be)  announced until fully tooled and ready to come to market to help prevent/reduce the time Hornby has to react (yes, if it exists Hornby have become aware of it - but we don't know how far along a competing HST - if it exists - got before Hornby became aware of it
• long shot - this is a fake to distract Hornby from what the competitor actually is doing.

 

 

 

 

 

Not crazy…. Just looney! Touch and cheek!!

 

I think the chap who was getting rather irate when commenting to me about a missing slat needs to take a step back. Some people can take it too far. It’s an accurate model, but nothing is perfect. 

 

The Bachmann 47 looks to have trumped the forthcoming Heljan one is several areas. I can only hope that the Heljan OO gauge tooling has been changed from the samples as something about the proportions just don’t look right. The O gauge one seems to be a missed opportunity! We shall wait and see on all fronts. 

[Dunsignalling]

If somebody is planning a bust-a-gut-brilliant HST, I have a feeling that the first releases will be of a particular period (BR and IC at a guess) that minimises the number of coach variants that require tooling at the outset.

 

Then they'll move to another slot along the timeline and produce the additions and alterations for that; and so on.

 

There's too much to tackle all in one go if we want real authenticity IMHO.

 

I also think that a great effort will be made with the first releases not to stray into a four digit price, and early sets (on the WR at least) were shorter. All that probably rules out Bachmann.

 

John

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[SamThomas]

3 hours ago, DaveClass47 said:

I think the chap who was getting rather irate when commenting to me about a missing slat needs to take a step back.

 

I take it that "the chap" complaining about a missing slat is fine with the fact that the wheels either side are too close together ?

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, SamThomas said:

I take it that "the chap" complaining about a missing slat is fine with the fact that the wheels either side are too close together ?

More to the point, moulding limitations mean the slats will almost certainly be of overscale thickness and if one hadn't been omitted, they would be too close together, which would look far worse.

 

I suspect that. if one looks around, the subterfuge may not be unique (but not as commonplace as 4' 1.5" gauge).

 

John

[Esmedune]

On 27/11/2021 at 15:41, mdvle said:

On 26/11/2021 at 19:33, DaveClass47 said:

Bachmann: it would be brilliant. BUT newly tooled mk3, with lights… hitting £95-100 per coach (based on their MK2F). Power cars at £350-400. A total of £1100-1200 for a train. Unaffordable. The Hornby train at £500+ is bad enough. 

 

There is lots of evidence that the market isn't as price averse as many like to think.

I am, there is no way I am paying £300 for a single loco and what is, in reality, a single coach. I shall wait for a rich boomer to pop their clogs and pick it up for £75 at an auction. The original tooling was on sale for well over 30 years, but now they are all limited editions at unethical prices.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Esmedune said:

I am, there is no way I am paying £300 for a single loco and what is, in reality, a single coach. I shall wait for a rich boomer to pop their clogs and pick it up for £75 at an auction. The original tooling was on sale for well over 30 years, but now they are all limited editions at unethical prices.

 

Your prerogative of course - but as has been observed many times if such high prices were dissuading buyers then the manufacturer charging them would go bust bust.

 

Back in the real world there is ample evidence that there are people rich enough to be able to afford to pay such prices and outbursts that you cannot afford them isn't going to change anything.

[Dunsignalling]

I'm another who thinks that prices of DMUs (from one brand at any rate) have been TTP for some while. Basically loads of electronics and not much train for ones money. Even though I can afford them, I just don't think they are good value.

 

However, as the only one I'd be unable to resist (and consequently wouldn't be in the least price sensitive about) seems to be off-limits to everybody, it's purely academic....

 

John

Edited November 28, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Hal Nail]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

it's purely academic....

 

A neat description of this thread!

[TomScrut]

On 23/11/2021 at 09:48, Legend said:

No need for new coaches if they match existing Hornby ones

 

The problem there is that the current (slam door) coaches are weaker than the power cars, and therefore with better locos and the same coaches it would not improve the train as a whole very much IMO, other than better lighting which will be really be about the only noticeable at a scale 125mph!

[TomScrut]

On 24/11/2021 at 00:54, scottrains29 said:

Throughout the show it's mentioned various times about the need for Hornby to turn a profit. Yet currently almost all the online box shifters have had the newly tooled sliding door mk3 XC coaches in their bargain bins for some time now. I bit and bought a full rake at less than £20 a coach. I strongly suspect they are not selling as it's near impossible to get the matching XC power cars. They sold out ages ago. Hornby really need to be improving the ratio of power cars to coaches to keep sales healthy. Had the power cars been available I would have happy paid more for the coaches.

 

Yeah, I nearly pre ordered an XC set but changed my mind due to a lot of stuff already on pre order. If I thought there was any reasonable chance if getting XC power cars I'd have a load of the coaches at the price they are at now.

 

I think similar happened with LNER ones didn't it?

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, Esmedune said:

I am, there is no way I am paying £300 for a single loco and what is, in reality, a single coach. I shall wait for a rich boomer to pop their clogs and pick it up for £75 at an auction. The original tooling was on sale for well over 30 years, but now they are all limited editions at unethical prices.

 

Sigh, I get it, there is a vocal minority who don't like current prices.

 

But we were talking about (aka speculating) what a newly tooled all modern HST from **Bachmann** would cost, not talking about the prices of existing tooling HST stuff from Hornby.

 

If anything, given your desires, you should be hoping/praying for a competitor to bring out a new high end HST as that would likely force Hornby to drop the prices on their existing stuff - as well as potentially cranking out a lot more of it.

 

[Esmedune]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Sigh, I get it, there is a vocal minority who don't like current prices.

 

But we were talking about (aka speculating) what a newly tooled all modern HST from **Bachmann** would cost, not talking about the prices of existing tooling HST stuff from Hornby.

 

If anything, given your desires, you should be hoping/praying for a competitor to bring out a new high end HST as that would likely force Hornby to drop the prices on their existing stuff - as well as potentially cranking out a lot more of it.

 

I'm only speaking for me, I'm never one to claim my opinions are in the majority.  But I am often saying a fool and his money are soon parted.  I came to this thread because I was looking at existing alternatives, as I do not want to get a ringfield driven anything, plus I certainly do not want another Hornby bit of tat with holes in the body to allow for the clips on the chassis.  However, to find that the modern alternative is the same cost as two decent steam locomotives with all the extra delicate bits stuck on, then common sense dictates that two basic shells with one engine in no way equate to the going rate. I mean, who on earth needs opening doors?? If you are lured in by flappy doors, then you do fit in with the fool and his money proverb...

[TomScrut]

4 hours ago, Esmedune said:

But I am often saying a fool and his money are soon parted.

 

Given we are buying model trains here, where does the line between fool and sensible exist? The fact you won't have anything with a ringfield in it means you're not willing to compromise on something to achieve a lower price, that is only the same as those who demand models as perfect as possible.

 

I expect that in 5 years time I will be in a position with my layout etc where I won't be wanting loads more stock and so will be willing to pay top dollar for something amazing.

 

It's the same argument about say a class 66. Why buy Bachmann ones when you can have 2 Hornby ones for the same price? Because I don't want 2 Hornby ones.

[Neil]

7 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Sigh, I get it, there is a vocal minority who don't like current prices.  .....

 

 

Perhaps there's another vocal minority for whom price is of little importance.

[Dunsignalling]

7 hours ago, Esmedune said:

I'm only speaking for me, I'm never one to claim my opinions are in the majority.  But I am often saying a fool and his money are soon parted.  I came to this thread because I was looking at existing alternatives, as I do not want to get a ringfield driven anything, plus I certainly do not want another Hornby bit of tat with holes in the body to allow for the clips on the chassis.  However, to find that the mreally odern alternative is the same cost as two decent steam locomotives with all the extra delicate bits stuck on, then common sense dictates that two basic shells with one engine in no way equate to the going rate. I mean, who on earth needs opening doors?? If you are lured in by flappy doors, then you do fit in with the fool and his money proverb...

Spot on. A 2-car DMU is really just two coaches, one fitted with a motorised loco chassis, and that just doesn't  (IMHO) represent value-for-money with a £300 price tag; even £250 would be pushing it a bit, at least until the next round of general price-rises.

 

However, it's had another effect on my thinking, which may align with some others. Because I won't be buying DMUs to go with my later diesel locos, I'm in the process of clearing out all those that can't run alongside my steam fleet, and won't be buying any more that don't fit into my revised plan. TBH, they've always been a secondary interest, and a thin-out was long overdue. Unfortunately that means no more HST's, whoever makes them. My Lima-based one has already gone, and for much more than what it originally cost me. 

 

I'm also in the position that, if I'm honest with myself, I've already got most of what really floats my boat, unless I fall deeper into the "collecting" trap than I already have.... New purchases have dropped pretty drastically over the past three years, and my current pre-orders amount to just one loco and about half-a-dozen each of coaches and wagons.  A big drop in expenditure; and probably not much more than 15% (in cash terms) of what I was getting through at the height of my excesses, though that might increase in January! 

 

A few thousand of the surplus went on changing the car before it was a real priority, and since then, more has been spent on other hobbies and interests, lately replacing my 12-year-old DSLR outfit with something lighter and more modern. I'm therefore no stranger to price tickets with four digits on them!

 

When all that's done with, will I revert to my former expenditure levels on models? I somehow doubt it. I'll probably be mainly just "gap-filling" in future. 

 

John

Edited November 29, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Esmedune]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Given we are buying model trains here, where does the line between fool and sensible exist? The fact you won't have anything with a ringfield in it means you're not willing to compromise on something to achieve a lower price, that is only the same as those who demand models as perfect as possible.

 

I expect that in 5 years time I will be in a position with my layout etc where I won't be wanting loads more stock and so will be willing to pay top dollar for something amazing.

 

It's the same argument about say a class 66. Why buy Bachmann ones when you can have 2 Hornby ones for the same price? Because I don't want 2 Hornby ones.

Define "Something amazing"?  A Princess Elizabeth is on my list of things to get, but on eBay all I am seeing are lots of gold plated ones, that no one seems to want. Is a HST with doors that open amazing?  Points I have made in the past and are worth repeating, why so many limited runs these days? Why not keep making models? Is it not better for the customer to spread tooling costs over longer production runs, rather than artificially drive the prices up? I am an electronics Engineer by trade and I know it will only cost a couple of pounds to create DCC chips in China. When you add packaging and transport, you are still at about £3 per unit. When you are born in the days when the price of a commodity was related to the cost of production, the more modern concept that companies pick prices based on what the market is willing to pay, is not palatable. 

[adb968008]

I’m somewhat in the same place.

I've a burgeoning collection, which when I eventually push myself, will see a reasonable sell off.

Ive been against duplication for years. Minor upgrades on detailed toolings offers little value when the price hikes considerably for that upgrade.

 

I was disappointed on the Duchesses in 2017 and resisted most upgrades since, unless its offering a livery I really want, but the days of wholesale clearance and upgrade activity stopped for me around 2016.

 

Coming round to the HST, now Ive seen the planned upgrade, I can see Roco offers a coupling kit that does the same, so if it really bothers me I can change it (ive 14 HSTs and so far ive lived with the issue going back to at least 1985 and my first HST). Kudos to Hornby for upgrading the tooling, its just doing as any business would, but will it drive demand and increase sales… i’m just not convinced… The old tooling would sell as it was without changes…

 

If someone else is planning a new HST, best of luck to them, but I think they are 5 years too late, the real thing saw its peak in enthusiast demand between 2017-2021, and Hornby milked it well… The problem for any new comer is making it sit nicely on shed amongst the others, and a price that draws attention, but even then, its got to be a livery thats a gap, and theres not many gaps.

 

prices now preclude wholesale sell offs and upgrades, and the glut of coaches out there now on special offer to me shows the desire has passed, save the few EMR celebrities & Blue Pullman, this is job well done imo, its time to count the cash, not spend it on more…

 

I have the same opinion on the 9F, Lord Nelson, Princess, A3, P2, I wonder if Hornby is financing these as Opex upgrades, rather than Capex new investments ? My money is interested in acquiring what I dont have, not minor window dressings of what I already have, its easy to ignore/defer duplicates in a crowded market place of products, that applies to the 20, 24,25,37,47, 56 too.

Edited November 29, 2021 by adb968008

[Legend]

The best bet is that Accurascale take this on 

 

They are the only ones that are going to deliver both the detail and bring it in at a price that maybe pallatable .  Rapido, Bachmann, Heljan are likely all going to be more expensive based on current products / plans .  Accurascale on the other hand have a business model thats going to deliver 5 car TPE rake at £225. Now I know that price is several years old and if they were doing it now it would probably increase but its still likely to be less than the competition . I think also Accurascale have built or are building a reputation for detail at a decent price . I've got a Bachmann Deltic but also the new Accurascale Deltic on order because I believe that its going to be something special even though I dont really need one .  I think there will be lots of people  like me who have HSTs and dont really need another one but would buy Accurascale just because it would be something special.  In other words Accurascale have such a reputation that they can generate their own market for models . This is important when in competition with others . 

 

If Hornby are doing a new one , and bare in mind this could still be a bit of Simon Kohler spin for the drama of the program , then it will be as expensive as current model unless there is competition . Its Hornbys cash cow , people are buying the current model at existing price , why would they lower the price ?  I remain convinced that the price of models owes much to what the manufacturers think we will pay rather than being related in anyway to the true cost of manufacture . In this respect we are our own worst enemies (and I am guilty of that too with  Precedent and Caley 812 on order , at high prices , but I want them )

[adb968008]

33 minutes ago, Legend said:

The best bet is that Accurascale take this on 

 

They are the only ones that are going to deliver both the detail and bring it in at a price that maybe pallatable .  Rapido, Bachmann, Heljan are likely all going to be more expensive based on current products / plans .  Accurascale on the other hand have a business model thats going to deliver 5 car TPE rake at £225. Now I know that price is several years old and if they were doing it now it would probably increase but its still likely to be less than the competition . I think also Accurascale have built or are building a reputation for detail at a decent price . I've got a Bachmann Deltic but also the new Accurascale Deltic on order because I believe that its going to be something special even though I dont really need one .  I think there will be lots of people  like me who have HSTs and dont really need another one but would buy Accurascale just because it would be something special.  In other words Accurascale have such a reputation that they can generate their own market for models . This is important when in competition with others . 

 

If Hornby are doing a new one , and bare in mind this could still be a bit of Simon Kohler spin for the drama of the program , then it will be as expensive as current model unless there is competition . Its Hornbys cash cow , people are buying the current model at existing price , why would they lower the price ?  I remain convinced that the price of models owes much to what the manufacturers think we will pay rather than being related in anyway to the true cost of manufacture . In this respect we are our own worst enemies (and I am guilty of that too with  Precedent and Caley 812 on order , at high prices , but I want them )

my bet is still on Rapido, their US business model at least in my eyes, is quite tight, aims at populist, lots of liveries and packs of 2 identical models is exactly their thing.

I could totally imagine them springing up offering a HST in twin packs in 20 liveries, both cars powered and hyping up the US style dog and pony show.

But Rapido tends to be on the higher end of the price spectrum, and two powered cars will surely come in towards the £400 end of the scale.

The only caution I have is they tend to be low risk, and I see a HST as quite high risk, certainly with coaches, but they might not see it that way given its high profile.

 

if theres is anything left of a market HSTs, imo its whats inbetween the powercars thats in need of an upgrade… just not with an APT sized capacitor.

 

But either way, as someone with a lot of them, and quite happy with them, it would take a lot to move me, moving the door handles doesnt cut it.

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by adb968008

[Legend]

11 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

my bet is still on Rapido, their business model is quite tight, aims at populist, lots of liveries and packs of 2 identical models is exactly their thing.

I could totally imagine them springing up offering a HST in twin packs in 20 liveries, both cars powered.

But Rapido tends to be on the higher end of the price spectrum, and two powered cars will surely come in towards the £400 end of the scale.

 

if theres is anything left of a market HSTs, imo its whats inbetween the powercars thats in need of an upgrade… just not with an APT sized capacitor.

 

 

Yeah fair point . I discounted Rapido because i think the price would be too high . I dont think they quite have the cachet that Accurascale would have . If Accurascale can produce something detail;ed at lower price then thats real competition. But I also recognise folk want something better to run between the power cars , again I think Accurascale better placed to deliver at a price point. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Legend

[Global]

There’s also the Irish angle with Mk3s - if Accurascale/IRM tooled up a full range of Mk3s then surely the power cars would be a logical add on?!

 

I really hope someone (by someone I mean Accurascale! Lol) is doing one as I can’t wait to rid myself of anything Hornby to be honest. They’ve had their day as far as I’m concerned, not just the models but their practices too. If they want to protect their market share they should up their game regardless, not just use spoiling tactics when they have competition. 
 

With the new Cavalex 56 and a potential new HST, that would just leave someone to do an improved 31 and I’ll be Hornby free! 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Global