New hst

[Legend]

31 minutes ago, Global said:

There’s also the Irish angle with Mk3s - if Accurascale/IRM tooled up a full range of Mk3s then surely the power cars would be a logical add on?!

 

I really hope someone (by someone I mean Accurascale! Lol) is doing one as I can’t wait to rid myself of anything Hornby to be honest. They’ve had their day as far as I’m concerned, not just the models but their practices too. If they want to protect their market share they should up their game regardless, not just use spoiling tactics when they have competition. 
 

With the new Cavalex 56 and a potential new HST, that would just leave someone to do an improved 31 and I’ll be Hornby free! 

 

Good point . The Irish angle was completely lost on me , but makes sense 

[Katie87006]

Is this series anywhere online? Or is it only on the telly? 

[spamcan61]

3 minutes ago, Katie87006 said:

Is this series anywhere online? Or is it only on the telly? 

It's available via the UKTVplay 'app' 

 

https://uktvplay.uktv.co.uk/shows/Hornby-a-model-world/watch-online

Edited November 29, 2021 by spamcan61

[GordonC]

Wasn't it Rapido that was going to partner with the NRM for the Prototype HST? If so, then if its them they may not be starting entirely from scratch.

 

Personally I'd think Accurascale most likely and I would think it would be a good move for them, they could sow up the market of Mk3s and Mk3As to themselves with a definitive model and give Hornby serious competition over high-spec HST power cars.

 

In terms of the Hornby HST, I think the power cars are decent models, but for me let themselves down in a few areas

(1) Price - just too expensive for what they are

(2) DCC - 8 pin DCC just isn't keeping up with lighting features

(3) Livery Application - too many screw-ups with paint colours and details

(4) Something just doesn't quite look right to me around the front lights area, not quite sure what.

 

I'm not sure what direction the HST market will be heading now though, Hornby will have largely covered available liveries with its super-detailed models and quite a few of those have ended up in the bargain bin in varying quantities so it might be brave for another manufacturer to reproduce quite so many of them (thinking mainly post-privatisation franchises other than long-lived or large fleet ones) without a level of confidence from pre-orders. Whatever new tooling appears, it could be patchy which liveries beyond BR era become available in full.

[mdvle]

8 hours ago, Neil said:

 

Perhaps there's another vocal minority for whom price is of little importance.

 

Probably, but their price would be well above current prices.

 

As much as some may dislike it, the market has spoken - and the market at large is quite willing to pay current prices which is of course why the UK now has so many manufacturers bringing product to market (and note that they are all going for the higher end detailed accurate models and only Oxford pursued the lower end price market.)

 

6 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Spot on. A 2-car DMU is really just two coaches, one fitted with a motorised loco chassis, and that just doesn't  (IMHO) represent value-for-money with a £300 price tag; even £250 would be pushing it a bit, at least until the next round of general price-rises.

 

This of course is part of the problem - we obsess about the motor when that actually is a small(ish) part of the cost.

 

The big cost is the design and tooling (and potentially assembly), and thus the problem for the DMU/EMU is that it really is 2 (or more) separate items that have to be tooled - and they don't have the sales volume potential of a Mk1/Mk3/loco.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by mdvle

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, Esmedune said:

Points I have made in the past and are worth repeating, why so many limited runs these days? Why not keep making models?

 

You have a choice given that the UK market only has the capacity to buy £X of models a year.

 

You can have 2 or 3 manufacturers who offer a small handful of models which they churn out by the 10's of thousands - think the 1980s and earlier.

 

Or you can have 10+ manufacturers churning out over 20+ new tooled models a year plus the additional runs from the large variety of existing tooling with the resulting reality that they have to have smaller production runs to avoid having a warehouse full of unsold stock.

 

The math is simple - X divided by a small number of models, or X divided by a large number of models.

 

5 hours ago, Esmedune said:

Is it not better for the customer to spread tooling costs over longer production runs, rather than artificially drive the prices up?

 

The customer has spoken, and the customer prefers to pay higher prices for a better variety of choice.

 

5 hours ago, Esmedune said:

I am an electronics Engineer by trade and I know it will only cost a couple of pounds to create DCC chips in China. When you add packaging and transport, you are still at about £3 per unit.

 

As has been said by others far more influential than me on this forum, if someone thinks they can bring a product to market and make a profit by selling at a fraction of the current price then they are guaranteed business success (and this is true of both your electronics example and for the frequent demand that someone create "affordable" new models)

 

The fact that no one else is doing that is a pretty good indication that your cost estimates are seriously incorrect - and in the case of electronics it will likely be all the associated stuff that is necessary outside of China (aka the cost of doing business) that is driving the price you disagree with.

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

This thread, like so many others, has been muddied by people moaning about price- this time on a model which still hasn't been announced properly yet including some who are steam era and have already declared they won't be buying an HST regardless of price.

 

You obviously all saw a different program to me- the one I saw was telling me the only power car changes are a new coupling, a new set up for the illumination of the frontal lighting to allow digital users to define which headlight is on and a minor tweak to a luggage van door handle, on a luggage van layout which is ONLY correct for 43018 as it is now, ie a one-piece window but with the guards van windows reinstated.

 

The problems with the coaches are two fold- to go with CDL or not to go with CDL- either way it's wrong depending on which side of 1994 it's depicting, and then how many buffet car variations to run with (although the obvious answer to me is two- one 403xx/407xx three windower and one 402xx/404xx four windower) and let those who want some weird limited run buffet (like 40619 or the 408xx) make do with the nearest equivalent. Talk of coaches is academic anyway, there was no mention of any coach improvements in the program, not even quick fix basic ones let alone all singing, all dancing ones.

 

 

[Hal Nail]

2 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

You obviously all saw a different program to me

 

The opening post suggested a new HST and most are probably responding to that, rather than the programme itself. Its inevitable there is thread drift given there isn't actually anything from Hornby or anyone else to talk about!

 

Given the new coupling has progressed as far as being tested on the show, the original tip off about a rival would have been some time ago and I'll be rather surprised if it actually amounts to anything. 

 

[TomScrut]

7 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

A 2-car DMU is really just two coaches, one fitted with a motorised loco chassis, and that just doesn't  (IMHO) represent value-for-money with a £300 price tag; even £250 would be pushing it a bit, at least until the next round of general price-rises.

 

But if you consider an alternative viewpoint that it is in fact a loco with a DCC coach then you're soon at £250-300 depending on which loco you want to use in the comparison.

 

7 hours ago, Esmedune said:

Define "Something amazing"?

 

Well, I can't be specific as my crystal ball isn't working for 5 years from now.

 

What I do mean is something state of the art, which the current HST is far from.

 

7 hours ago, Esmedune said:

Why not keep making models? Is it not better for the customer to spread tooling costs over longer production runs, rather than artificially drive the prices up?

 

Wasn't that Lima's strategy?

 

7 hours ago, Esmedune said:

the more modern concept that companies pick prices based on what the market is willing to pay, is not palatable. 

 

I don't like it but it does seem to be working. Maybe in the old world we couldn't have had the newcomers to the market and as I understand it Hornby are also making profit again.

 

Without knowing the figures the whole thing is pretty academic.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, TomScrut said:

 

But if you consider an alternative viewpoint that it is in fact a loco with a DCC coach then you're soon at £250-300 depending on which loco you want to use in the comparison.

 

But all the head/tail and cab lighting would be included in the loco, so the equation would be:

 

Loco + 1x coach chassis + 2x coach bodies with interior lights, and I reckon £250 is plenty for that unless the loco in question is the new Bachmann 47. 

 

Sorry, but I think Bachmann are milking Multiple Units for all they can get and I'm not falling for it. 

 

John

Edited November 29, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[TomScrut]

14 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

But all the head/tail and cab lighting would be included in the loco, so the equation would be:

 

Loco + 1x coach chassis + 2x coach bodies with interior lights, and I reckon £250 is plenty for that unless the loco in question is the new Bachmann 47. 

 

Remember the RRP for a 57 is over £200 now too. Reason behind the DCC coach comparison is because a) Bachmann don't do lit coaches without DCC IIRC and b) both cars will require circuit boards

 

18 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Sorry, but I think Bachmann are milking Multiple Units for all they can get and I'm not falling for it. 

 

Maybe so, I don't know. I don't think there is a perfect analogy but if you compare a 158 with a 57 I don't think the 158 is the bad VFM one.

[Dunsignalling]

Factory-level  cost for a DCC lighting control board and connectors is probably a about a couple of quid. Let's be generous and call it a tenner....

 

Slightly old comparison but they came out more or less together, with similar spec:

Hornby 2-BiL: RRP £153.99, Bachmann 2-EPB: RRP £209.95.

Newer tooling Bachmann 2-HAP: RRP £269-95 

 

John

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[TomScrut]

38 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Factory-level  cost for a DCC lighting control board and connectors is probably a about a couple of quid. Let's be generous and call it a tenner....

 

Maybe so, it's more than that as far as the customer is concerned!

 

38 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Slightly old comparison but they came out more or less together, with similar spec:

Hornby 2-BiL: RRP £153.99, Bachmann 2-EPB: RRP £209.95.

 

Whilst I aren't familiar with those models, I presume that is from when Hornby weren't making money but Bachmann were?

 

As a generalisation, Bachmann are dearer than the alternatives IMO, I just don't see the units as bad value compared to what they charge for everything else. I did wait until I could get a Northern 150 for a decent discount rather than pay RRP (or the standard 15% off) as I felt it was too dear for what is essentially old tooling. Likewise though you wouldn't catch me paying RRP or near for a 57.

 

OTOH I'd be tempted by an appropriately liveried 47, or a Northern 158 because they look/are about as good as they get.

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

This thread, like so many others, has been muddied by people moaning about price- this time on a model which still hasn't been announced properly yet including some who are steam era and have already declared they won't be buying an HST regardless of price.

 

You obviously all saw a different program to me- the one I saw was telling me the only power car changes are a new coupling, a new set up for the illumination of the frontal lighting to allow digital users to define which headlight is on and a minor tweak to a luggage van door handle, on a luggage van layout which is ONLY correct for 43018 as it is now, ie a one-piece window but with the guards van windows reinstated.

 

I agree that having watched the programme, what we saw is an upgrade to the existing model - chassis modified to Kinematic coupling and lighting circuit rejigged. Now I'm probably going to get trampled in the pile-on, but I would suggest that for many ordinary people, sorting out the coupling and 'always on' cab light on the 'full-fat' Hornby HST power cars does actually tackle the two issues that most need updating.

[wairoa]

The idea of a new HST is certainly interesting. However, it will have to be pretty amazing for me to buy one as I am quite happy with the two  I  have. I have one from the 80s that cost me $30 off ebay and I have another one of the deluxe versions that I also bought from ebay. I am very happy with both, although like many others  the coupling on the bogie is not that attractive.

[adb968008]

13 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

I agree that having watched the programme, what we saw is an upgrade to the existing model - chassis modified to Kinematic coupling and lighting circuit rejigged. Now I'm probably going to get trampled in the pile-on, but I would suggest that for many ordinary people, sorting out the coupling and 'always on' cab light on the 'full-fat' Hornby HST power cars does actually tackle the two issues that most need updating.

Dont forget the sugar cubes…

 

so thats the lights, the chassis and the body that was updated, only thing left is the box.

Edited November 29, 2021 by adb968008

[TomScrut]

11 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

I agree that having watched the programme, what we saw is an upgrade to the existing model - chassis modified to Kinematic coupling and lighting circuit rejigged. Now I'm probably going to get trampled in the pile-on, but I would suggest that for many ordinary people, sorting out the coupling and 'always on' cab light on the 'full-fat' Hornby HST power cars does actually tackle the two issues that most need updating.

 

Yes, assuming it is going to be priced around where it is now I think that lighting (assuming more than 8 pin, that I wasn't sure about where they were going with better lighting), the rear coupler are key things. I think an improvement to the guards area internally could be good, although I am tempted to just paint the inside of my NMT cars black. I never thought the top of the windscreen was right on current shape, not sure if that has been tweaked at all.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Maybe so, it's more than that as far as the customer is concerned!

 

 

Whilst I aren't familiar with those models, I presume that is from when Hornby weren't making money but Bachmann were?

 

As a generalisation, Bachmann are dearer than the alternatives IMO, I just don't see the units as bad value compared to what they charge for everything else. I did wait until I could get a Northern 150 for a decent discount rather than pay RRP (or the standard 15% off) as I felt it was too dear for what is essentially old tooling. Likewise though you wouldn't catch me paying RRP or near for a 57.

 

OTOH I'd be tempted by an appropriately liveried 47, or a Northern 158 because they look/are about as good as they get.

Current pre-discount prices. Taken from the KMRC website earlier.

 

Couldn't use Hattons or Rails for obvious reasons.

 

John

Edited November 29, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Dont forget the sugar cubes…

 

so thats the lights, the chassis and the body that was updated, only thing left is the box.

They talked about the body but they didnt actually say they had amended it.

[GordonC]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Factory-level  cost for a DCC lighting control board and connectors is probably a about a couple of quid. Let's be generous and call it a tenner....

 

Slightly old comparison but they came out more or less together, with similar spec:

Hornby 2-BiL: RRP £153.99, Bachmann 2-EPB: RRP £209.95.

Newer tooling Bachmann 2-HAP: RRP £269-95 

 

John

 

 

is that a tenner at the factory or in the model shop? because an extra tenner at the factory must make a much bigger difference in the price on the shelves by the time everyone in between gets their cut

[GordonC]

3 hours ago, andyman7 said:

I agree that having watched the programme, what we saw is an upgrade to the existing model - chassis modified to Kinematic coupling and lighting circuit rejigged. Now I'm probably going to get trampled in the pile-on, but I would suggest that for many ordinary people, sorting out the coupling and 'always on' cab light on the 'full-fat' Hornby HST power cars does actually tackle the two issues that most need updating.

 

personally I'd have thought price and rubbish paint jobs would have been the two biggest issues

[stonojnr]

6 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

This thread, like so many others, has been muddied by people moaning about price- this time on a model which still hasn't been announced properly yet including some who are steam era and have already declared they won't be buying an HST regardless of price.

 

You obviously all saw a different program to me- the one I saw was telling me the only power car changes are a new coupling, a new set up for the illumination of the frontal lighting to allow digital users to define which headlight is on and a minor tweak to a luggage van door handle, on a luggage van layout which is ONLY correct for 43018 as it is now, ie a one-piece window but with the guards van windows reinstated.

 

The problems with the coaches are two fold- to go with CDL or not to go with CDL- either way it's wrong depending on which side of 1994 it's depicting, and then how many buffet car variations to run with (although the obvious answer to me is two- one 403xx/407xx three windower and one 402xx/404xx four windower) and let those who want some weird limited run buffet (like 40619 or the 408xx) make do with the nearest equivalent. Talk of coaches is academic anyway, there was no mention of any coach improvements in the program, not even quick fix basic ones let alone all singing, all dancing ones.

 

 

 

I think the programme started off making it sound like it was a complete retooling project, but by the end it seemed alot less than the sum of those parts, even though where you sit on how big or important the coupling,sound,lights and variations on where a handle might sit maybe bigger or lesser depending on your preference for those things.

 

But you have to balance that off against the whole reason they started doing this refresh in the first place was this claimed potential rival coming in and stealing their thunder in producing a better HST on the market, as its one of those Hornby models that, and I dont think it was just Simons hyperbole flourish for the cameras, that he was willing to defend fire with fire on,and weve seen Hornby under his tenure do that before.

 

so then you have to ask yourself well do those changes shore up Hornbys HST enough to check mate any potential rival from coming to market with a better HST, and the answer would have to be no, not really, yes theyve improved bits of it, but its not the ultimate model that it perhaps could be or should be.

 

and thats to me where the issue about Mk3 coaches come in, because theres no use having a set of new upgraded HSTs, which Ive no doubt will cost even more than the rather large cost of the current sets, if you have no comparable quality rolling stock to fit between the power cars, you dont buy an HST just to run around in light engine duties, its no good fixing the coupling at one end but having even more obvious gaps left between the coaches as a result.

 

so its not unreasonable to imagine alongside this HST theres been a similar piece of freshening up, as has been done with the Mk4s to match up with the new improved Class 91s, on the Mk3s for HSTs that wasnt covered in the programme,and then youve got your improved HST, and a set of improved Mk3s to go with it, and that might be a better proposition that Hornby can then use to defend against a rival looking at making headway in that direction towards an HST of their own.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

 

is that a tenner at the factory or in the model shop? because an extra tenner at the factory must make a much bigger difference in the price on the shelves by the time everyone in between gets their cut

My point exactly, but as with cars, the difference of the component cost off the end of the production line between basic and bells-and-whistles versions isn't a big percentage, certainly a mere fraction of the retail differential between a bare analogue version and the same thing with DCC and full lighting.

 

Somebody who worked at Ford once told me that if they stripped out all the complication involved in messing about with the myriad trim levels and optional extras, and did every Escort as a Ghia, the economies of scale from making everything identical would mean everybody could have that for about twenty quid more than a basic one and the company wouldn't lose a penny.

 

In both cases the retail prices are based on what the maker thinks the market will stand, and bears little direct relationship to the cost of production. 

 

In any event, we're talking about Factory (owned by Kader), to Bachmann UK (largely owned by Kader), to Retailer, so there is hardly a gaggle of middlemen adding a slice.  

 

John

Edited November 29, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[TomScrut]

10 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

In any event, we're talking about Factory (owned by Kader), to Bachmann UK (largely owned by Kader), to Retailer, so there is hardly a gaggle of middlemen adding a slice.  

 

Yes but maybe because it is the Kader factory they use will mean it is competing with stuff from larger markets meaning the price needs to be the price to even get the build slot? I.e. it being more cost effective make X of 1 thing for the US market than X/3 of 3 different things for our market.

Edited November 30, 2021 by TomScrut

[Roy Langridge]

11 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

In any event, we're talking about Factory (owned by Kader), to Bachmann UK (largely owned by Kader), to Retailer, so there is hardly a gaggle of middlemen adding a slice.  

 

Quite the opposite can be true. When the company dictates that you use "internal" production facilities the price can be higher as there is no competition. And I speak from personal experience.

Roy