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Are O gauge models more-robust and detailed than OO?


faa77
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Because O gauge is larger, do the diesel locos (particularly 31, 37, 47, 56, 60) have more detail than OO and are they more robust because the pieces are larger?

 

It seems like Heljan is the only O gauge loco supplier for the classes I'm interested in?

 

(I'm thinking of moving from OO gauge because Bachmann models seem so delicate with regards to problems and I think the prices are now too high for what you get)

Edited by faa77
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Where to start! I wouldn't say they are more robust per say but I certainly find them easier to maintain if something does come off! If you want to go down the rtr line then yes, you've basically got Heljan and the Dapol 08 loco wise but Dapol also have a 66 in the pipeline. Picking the five classes you've mentioned:

 

31 - Generally seems to be fairly positive of the un-refurbished version. Unfortunately the refurbished version seems to have had the buffer-beam pushed forwards. I did take a look at one the other day and think this could be rectified but I have not had one apart.

37 - For a long time I resisted the Heljan 37 as it does have some significant issues, all the side grills are too low and so are the bodyside windows, this is especially noticeable with TTG and Dutch liveries, less so with plain blue/green and the LL liveries. The early split box ones did suffer from the split gear issue but this isn't so much of an issue with later models though some people seem to insist that it is.

47 - This seems to be very much a marmite loco at the moment. It does have some quite significant issues with the 'face' of the model. So much so I have seriously been thinking about building the MM1 kit instead. Probably worht having a read through this thread https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129885-retooled-class-47-in-7mm-scale/

56 - This is looking good, though again there is some conjecture on the cab shape. 

60 - Generally accepted that its a pretty good model. Looks like a 60 to me!

 

We have a list of available kits & rtr on our website which might be of help though I do need to update it https://www.modernimageogauge.co.uk/rollingstocklist.html

 

I won't bang on about split gears (I have had a 26 and an early 37 fail but that's and this year most of my locos have done a fair bit of running) and you should build kits as everyone is different. Research research research as with everything is key!

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A difficult question.

If you compare a O gauge Dapol 08 shunter with similar models in OO, tho O gauge one will compare very favorably  in terms of detail, robustness and price.

If you are looking at the larger diesels from Heljan, I think it's not quite so clear. You will probably have to pay well over twice the price for the O gauge model, and Heljan have a history of gears splitting on some models.

Some of the detail on the Heljan diesels is a bit heavy (I am particularly thinking of the steps on the bogies), but I'm not sure you could call them more robust, any well detailed model needs careful handling, whatever the scale.

Of course, you will need much more space in 7mm, or a smaller layout!

 

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As Quintus hints, if the model incorporates fine detail, the finest that the scale will permit without being “gross”, almost irrespective of the material it will be delicate. Even in 0, a handrail or lamp-iron, for instance, if rendered as close as practicable to scale in brass or nickel-silver will be very easy to bend if handled heavily.

 

Its almost true to say that you can have either detail or robustness, although that is a bit of an over-simplification.

 

I’m an extremist when it comes to robustness, so here’s an EE Type 1 in 0 of the kind that I like ……. I suspect that many will consider it crude, but I love it!

 

 

AB5D6DEC-3A09-4A16-A3E8-3B8568C23080.jpeg

Edited by Nearholmer
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2 hours ago, faa77 said:

Because O gauge is larger, do the diesel locos (particularly 31, 37, 47, 56, 60) have more detail than OO and are they more robust because the pieces are larger?

 

It seems like Heljan is the only O gauge loco supplier for the classes I'm interested in?

 

(I'm thinking of moving from OO gauge because Bachmann models seem so delicate with regards to problems and I think the prices are now too high for what you get)

 

All of the Heljan loco's (mark I) you have mentioned suffer from issues, mainly split gears over a period of time (not sure of the Class 56 & 60) as I have had to replace them over the years but once replaced with a set of brass ones then these loco's run superbly and will give you a great performance for many years to come. I have dabbled in many gauges but have seriously settled on 7mm as they are easy to maintain and look the bee's knee's also they seem to be a lot more robust than "OO" IMHO but all I would say if you buy a Heljan and providing if it is not going to be lifted on and off a layout every day then I would use some glue to fit the buffer beam pipes accessories and other bits and bobs on the loco but that's my opinion.

 

Great looking loco's and they will pull anything.....

 

I hope this helps.

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2 hours ago, faa77 said:

(I'm thinking of moving from OO gauge because Bachmann models seem so delicate with regards to problems and I think the prices are now too high for what you get)

 

Given the number of people who post on here about moving up, who seem to have underestimated the space needed, I'd suggest that is worth looking into carefully.

 

Value is difficult to define but O certainly isn't cheap with the 73 is coming in at over £600.

 

In terms of detail, I suggest you look at photos or better still in the flesh. There are issues around the shape of some of these which may or may not be an issue as it is down to personal taste whether they bother you.

 

As to robustness, that probably isn't the first word that springs to mind for anyone trying to pick up a 3kg loco without breaking off small plastic details!

 

Edited by Hal Nail
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Delicate small parts, but literally due to the sheer weight when lifting meaning you have to grasp harder and things do get damaged in the post, again due to weight of the things getting a sudden stop when the post handlers throw stuff about. If you can get to a supplier rather than posting, then this issue isn’t a problem. Being in Australia, I can’t get around that and have had to send a couple of locos back.

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For me, the price difference is the killer.

Are O gauge Heljan locos three times as good...ie, will they give three times the pleasure, of an OO gauge loco?

Your decision.

But you need to find some way to see, and if possible, handle the O gauge diesels.

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I think the price is more of a Heljan problem, than an O gauge one. Ignoring the discounts one can find online for the time being, the Heljan class 50 has an RRP of £699.99 whilst the forthcoming Dapol Class 66, fitted with sound no less is £475. Compared to something in 00 with sound added you're definitely over the £200 mark.

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12 hours ago, JeffP said:

For me, the price difference is the killer.

Are O gauge Heljan locos three times as good...ie, will they give three times the pleasure, of an OO gauge loco?

Your decision.

But you need to find some way to see, and if possible, handle the O gauge diesels.

I don't think it is the detail you are paying for (eg an Accurascale class 37 in 00 will be a more accurate model than the Heljan O gauge one as supplied), it is the size. If you build a layout say 20ft x 12ft in 00 you will probably have space for 20 locos, in O gauge the same space will probably mean 5 or 6. Bearing in mind OO gauge locos are £200 a loco and an O gauge one is £550, O gauge works out no more expensive. 

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Generally an OO locomotive these days can be in the 750g-1kg weight band and be made up of around 250 parts. 
 

the main difference is that the tools needed for 7mm are physically larger, raisi g the cost of tooling and unit costs by around a third. 

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On 24/11/2021 at 23:08, faa77 said:

Because O gauge is larger, do the diesel locos (particularly 31, 37, 47, 56, 60) have more detail than OO and are they more robust because the pieces are larger?

 

It seems like Heljan is the only O gauge loco supplier for the classes I'm interested in?

 

(I'm thinking of moving from OO gauge because Bachmann models seem so delicate with regards to problems and I think the prices are now too high for what you get)


In short - maybe and not really. Detail on O gauge models tends to be a bit finer, but there's not necessarily more detail. 

I've never handled a Heljan class 31 or class 37, so I'll avoid those. There's a lot of documentation online on the errors with the Heljan class 37.

The Heljan class 47 (old and new) are full of errors. Heljan for some reason have an issue with locomotive cabs, they just cannot get the shapes right. If you're looking for accuracy, there's a class 47 kit available.

The upcoming Heljan class 56 is another model full of errors. the cab area especially is completely incorrect.

 

The Heljan class 60 fairs much better than the others, the only issue I can see with the Heljan class 60 is the sunken in grills on the body.

 

Dapol are much better in terms of accuracy. Dapol are also much better at pricing. Heljan seems to be 3 times as more expensive 

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1 hour ago, Katie87006 said:


In short - maybe and not really. Detail on O gauge models tends to be a bit finer, but there's not necessarily more detail. 

I've never handled a Heljan class 31 or class 37, so I'll avoid those. There's a lot of documentation online on the errors with the Heljan class 37.

The Heljan class 47 (old and new) are full of errors. Heljan for some reason have an issue with locomotive cabs, they just cannot get the shapes right. If you're looking for accuracy, there's a class 47 kit available.

The upcoming Heljan class 56 is another model full of errors. the cab area especially is completely incorrect.

 

The Heljan class 60 fairs much better than the others, the only issue I can see with the Heljan class 60 is the sunken in grills on the body.

 

Dapol are much better in terms of accuracy. Dapol are also much better at pricing. Heljan seems to be 3 times as more expensive 

I agree re the Dapol vs Heljan, and there are some issues with a number of the Heljan models but they have done some good models as well,  eg the 03, the Hymek, class 26, 25/3. There are a couple of comments on here re the Heljan class 37; while the grille issues are there, I didn't notice them until it was pointed out to me. With some detailing parts from Shawplan/PHDesigns it scrubs up well:

20211120_182031.jpg.20bacd50a9f725dbcc84ac67d8a931e6.jpg

20201121_062452.jpg.bcb047ef975a07786914cf03ae798216.jpg20201121_062519.jpg.bd04ad881438f95886da8593fa0a5f0f.jpg

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A mate brought round two of his Heljan diesels earlier today, a 25 and a 40.

 

Regarding robustness, well the 25 had a piece of cab glazing loose inside the cab and I found a spring from the frame of the 40 loose in the box. The spring was easy to put back, it clipped into place, but the glazing will be harder and to be honest reminds me of experiences with Heljan locos in 00. They seem to use a diluted solvent.

 

Both models are a lot heavier than I was expecting - nearly 2 kg for the 25 and nearly 3 kg for the 40. I have my doubts about the engineering sense of using nylon gears in such heavy models, especially when you think how heavy a train can be. I am told, brass replacement gears can be had but they cost £45 a loco.

 

I found the 25 extremely difficult to couple up to a wagon. Access is difficult because of the various hoses. In the end I realised the gap behind the coupling hook on the loco is too small to let the 3-link link drop into place. I manouvred its screw coupling over the hook of the wagon but I found this really difficult. I think I would remove the hoses if I wanted to operate the model on a layout, and certainly modify the coupler hook. And trickle a solvent around all of the window frames before the glazing has a chance to fall out.

 

Nice-looking models and the 40 especially would look good in a display case, but I think they will need repairs from time to time to keep them going on a working layout.

 

- Richard.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention, the 40 kept on derailing and rerailing itself on my one and only turnout ... we checked the wheels and the B2B of one driven axle on one bogie was about 0.5 mm greater than all of the others.

Edited by 47137
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On 26/11/2021 at 21:44, Dreadnought05 said:

I think the price is more of a Heljan problem, than an O gauge one. Ignoring the discounts one can find online for the time being, the Heljan class 70 has an RRP of £699.99 whilst the forthcoming Dapol Class 66, fitted with sound no less is £475. Compared to something in 00 with sound added you're definitely over the £200 mark.

Heljan don't manufacture a class 70.

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16 hours ago, 47137 said:

Nice-looking models and the 40 especially would look good in a display case

 

Edit: I forgot to mention, the 40 kept on derailing

Almost a metaphor for modern life. Looks good, doesn't actually work.

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Good morning.

 

The size V cost thing controls itself.  With 2mm, 3.5mm and 4mm you can squirrel away a fortunes worth of loco's quite easily...

 

Not quite so easy with 7mm, but I'm sure some of us will rise to that challenge.

 

My view is that the move to O was the best thing I ever did and wished I'd done it earlier.  It was originally spurred on by the announcement of the Dapol 08.  Then the Terrier tipped the scales completely.  

 

So now I have a few Terriers, a couple of 08's and just got an all green 03.  All suitable for use on South Coast locations.  I had a LLC 15, superb loco, but did not fit my area, so that went before the house move.

 

A luxury for Christmas is a P class kit.  That makes my roster pretty well complete.  

 

I could get a class 33 or 73, but would rather have a larger passenger tank loco, maybe a Radial Tank, suitable for passenger of freight...

 

In summary, it's a larger scale, but you buy less....

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On 06/12/2021 at 08:27, The Bigbee Line said:

 

In summary, it's a larger scale, but you buy less....

 

Judging by my pile of unmade kits I am not sure I agree!!!!!  But I take on board the sentiment!

 

Paul R

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