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GWR - Railcars, Autocars, DMU's


RobinofLoxley
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Im looking at the late 50's as a period trying to identify what if any RTR models have been produced that might have been operational in and around Birmingham during the period. Hornby made diesel railcars but the Autocoaches arent driven, I wondered if any AVC's had been produced with drives, ditto class 122/121's with trailers. There are obviously speed-wing 3 car DMU's to find (I havnt yet). Any others?

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Are we talking about the WR, LMR, or both.

 

On the WR, class 116 3-car sets were introduced into the Birmingham area in 1958 IIRC, in the unlined green 'speed whisker' livery and without gangways.  Nobody has ever done an RTR model of this and whilst it is possible to make a reasonable representation by cut'n'shutting Lima or Bachmann 117s, it is an expensive and time consuming game needing 5 coaches to prise a 3-car unit out of*, especially at Bachmann prices.  You have to remove the headcode panels and replace them with smaller destination board panels.  These ran with class 122 bubble cars and DTS trailers as well, but these did not appear until the early 60s. 

 

There were also Swindon Cross Country sets used on Cardiff-Birmingham services, and also not available in RTR form.

 

I know this is not what you want to read if you are modelling the WR side of Birmingham's railways, but this is the state of play,  Swindon Cross Country 120s are high scorers in wishlist polls and have been for some time, but no manufacturer has yet taken the hint.  116s seem very unlikely since Bachmann's repeat of the 117, only suitable for London area in your period.

 

The GWR railcars, both 'flying banana' and 'razor' styles, ran in the Birmingham area, though TTBOMK the flying bananas did not survive long enough to recieve green livery and ended their days in early BR crimson and cream.  Crimson/cream and lined green 'razors' could be both seen, though.  These are available as RTR models, Lima/Hornby doing the 'razor' single car and twin set types, and Heljan doing the 'flying banana'.

 

Auto traliers operated with auto fitted steam locomotives in a push-pull setup, the train being driven from the auto trailer cab when the locomotive was propelling it; these are not the same thing as a dmu or diesel railcar and were not compatible with them.  They did run in the Birmingham area, though. 

 

Over at New Street, the LMR featured Metro-Cammell, Cravens, and Derby (class 108) types, all of which are readily available in RTR, and the BRCW class 104s, which aren't.

 

 

*I know, having done exactly this with Lima donors some 40 years ago. when they were insanely cheap even for those days.  I still have the set, and it still runs reasonably well.

 

 

 

 

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Thanks @johnster. Since I'm not familiar with the pet names of some of these items just so that we're on the same sheet I have copied some examples from warwickshire railways site photos - this site is my main resource for eventually stocking my layout which is based around wolverhampton based on an earlier (1950's) rebuild combining high and low levels - we had a conversation about this before, I can run almost anything.

 

The left photo is the lightweight AVC, the right hand one I assume being streamlined is what you refer to as the flying banana, the other style being more angular hence the razor. The auto trailers could be towed behind either one according to Warwickshire railways. The AVC was powered and had trailers - up to 2. I know that the razor and banana could tow trailers.

 

Amazed there are no 120's, I thought it was incompetence that I couldnt find any.

 

Also there were class 112/113 - cant find any evidence of those being modelled but still looking.

 

Not very keen to run 108's but it would be 'Allowed'. If thats what is available.

 

 

gwrms2755th.jpg

gwrms2752.jpg

Edited by RobinofLoxley
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On 02/12/2021 at 14:14, Killybegs said:

Ex GWR railcar 22 made it into green livery and is available RTR.

 

Link to pic https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/292452569536260489/

That's a 'razor', not a 'flying banana'.  At least one of the razor twin sets made it into lined green as well.

 

On 02/12/2021 at 15:44, RobinofLoxley said:

Sometimes as you keep researching, you answer your own questions

 

http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/british-rail-derby-lightweight-single-car-unit/  etc etc

 

LMR unit, not used on WR lines in Birmingham area late 50s TTBOMK.

 

On 02/12/2021 at 14:42, RobinofLoxley said:

The auto trailers could be towed behind either one according to Warwickshire railways.

 

They could, so long as the railcar had conventional drawgear and were geared for this.  Nos.1-17 didn't.  But the railcars were not fitted with the auto linkage (TRG, Through Regulator Gear} to work with auto trailers in auto 'mode', and a train consisting of a diesel railcar (or anything else that was not an auto-fitted steam locomotive) propelling an auto trailer could not be driven from the leading auto trailer cab.  Auto-fitted steam locomotives in the late 50s Birmingham area would have been 14xx and possibly 54xx or 64xx (54xx not available RTR), TTBOMK the auto fitted 4575s were all allocated to South Wales originally and migrated to Plymouth after the dmus supplanted them.

 

The WR dmus were compatible with each other, and for your purposes this means 116, 120, and 122.  The control gear compatibility was indicated by symbols on the cab front, blue square in this case.  Some of the LMR units were not compatible, including the Derby lightweights you have mentioned.  I would be surprised if some 108s (Derby Heavyweight) and 101s (Metro-Cammells) did not find their way on to WR metals during your period in the Midlands.

 

The AVC unit was a trial prototype and a one off, and no RTR model is available. 

 

Wikipedia is useful here, as it gives a list of first generation dmus in order of their TOPs class numbers from which you can conveniently link to the article for that class,  This should give you a basic understanding of what the dmus were, when they were built, and what they looked like.  Another class that creeps into you location/period frame is the Gloucester RCW Class 119, similar to the 120 and with the same interior layout but with 'Derby' cabs and a slightly different body profile, another 'blue square' type.  You may be happy to use a 108 as a Rule 1 representation of this set, but there are significant differences, notably the coach length, 57' for the 108 and 64' for all the WR vehicles.  I have heard of people using Cravens sets as ersatz 120s, so it is not an altogether unheard of thing

 

First generation dmus are confusing, and I would only consider my information to be properly reliable as applied to WR sets.  The multiplicity of very similar looking classes such as 113/4/5/6/7/8 does not clarify matters, but those classes all had significant detail differences and different seating layouts; 117/8 had central toilet compartments in the trailer, and despite looking identical to a quick glance, had different shaped buffers and headcode panesl, and there were very similar looking 4-car sets operating out of Marylebone and St Pancras. some of which had Rolls Royce engines and hydraulic transmission. 

 

It might help to consider that the 1955 modernisation plan, which post dated the introduction of the 79xxx series Derby Lightweights and MetroCammells, envisaged 4 basic types, 'Branch' sets on 57' underframes, gangwayed within the set so that the guard could sell tickets on the trains (don't be fooled by the 'Branch' classification, many of these sets worked long distance stopping trains on main lines on regions other than the Western and Southern) (the Southern went their own way with diesel-electric compartment units that looked like the EPB emu stock, and the 'Slim Jim' Mk1 based Hastings sets).  These were built by MetroCammell, BR Derby, Cravens, Gloucerster RCW, Park Royal, Birmingham RCW, and others, all with their own distinctive house styles.   'High Density', open saloon stock on 64' underframes with doors to each seating bay, like the 116s,  and not originally gangwayed, intended for suburban work., 'Cross Country', WR gangwayed sets with open saloon seating on 64' underframes, the 119 and 120 types, some of which had Buffet counters in the trailers, intended for secondary main line work, and 'Inter-City', I think the first use of the term as applied to trains in 1956, Swindon 3-sets on 64' underframes initially used between Cardiff and Birmingham but quickly redeployed to Glasgow-Edinburgh duties.  The cabs were similar to the 120s, but they were intended to run as 6-car gangwayed sets that could be split into 3-car, so there were 'half cabs; at the 'inner ends' of the sets with gangways.  Again, there were buffet trailers. Followed in 1962 by a Swindon 4-car Inter-City, mk1 based with half cabs and gangways, and the first stock to use the new Swindon designed B4 bogie.  Buffet trailers were provided.

 

First generation dmus were intended to run at a maximum of 70mph, considered a reasonable speed in those days, but the 1962 Inter-City sets, though 'blue square' compatible, were geared to run at 75, and running in multiple with 'ordinary' sets was discouraged; the gear ratiios were all different.  There was a 5th type, also from Swindon and following the 4-car Inter-Cities, a 6-car 75mph high powered set for the Liverpool-Hull 'Trans Pennine' service, with the distinctive 'wrap around' cab windows.  And buffets.

 

For your period, liveries are a mixture of plain mid green, lined mid green on the gangwayed sets, and lined dark olive green for all types.  All had 'speed whiskers', which I think are what you are calling 'speed wings', and white fibreglass domed cab roofs; the small yellow warning panels were not applied until 1961, and some sets survived into 1966 Blue livery without them.  The pre-1955 plan sets were given numbers in the 79xxx series, prefixed by region as coaching stock, and the 1955 plan 'first generation proper' sets were numbered in the 5xxxx series.  The allocation of number blocks does not seem to have been governed by date of introduction (perhaps it was by date of ordering), and some types carried over into different number series within the 5xxxx range.  Motor coaches and Buffets carry the BR roundel.

 

Hope this helps!

 

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Thank you for that. I followed the investigation route through Wikipedia yesterday as it happens. It is complicated especially the non tops numbered often 'non standard' versions. 

Warwickshire railways site has photos of almost every class in the Diesel dawn sections of the photo archive which have to be worked through station by station to find. 

I suppose that unusual sightings would get photographed so even when the received wisdom is that such and such a class were despatched to Scotland and were never deployed in the West Midlands there is a photo proving the opposite; however some were more likely to be in long term service.

 

I have recently realised that dmus will have more route flexibility on my new layout than loco hauled trains so while it was a long term plan to introduce them I have decided I should have some available from the start.

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Up until a few years ago, WR steam/diesel changover was the most popular era modelled, and while it has been overtaken by current scene, rightly, is still very popular.  If you are modelling even a secondary main line based on the WR in this period, dmus are an essential, if unglamorous, component of the scene, yet the only contribution from the trade has been Lima's 117, now repeated by Bachmann, a fine model but very rarely seen outside the London Division in this period.  To be fair to the RTR manufacturers, dmus are not an easy sell; the power cars cost as much as locomotives and the price of a 3-car set soon racks up.  They have, therefore, concentrated mostly on types that can be offered as 2-car sets made into 3-car sets with the addition of the centre trailer.  This is no use to WR modellers, who want 3-car sets, and who are not catered for at all at the crucial 1958-65 end of steam period unless you are modelling the London area.  The most popular area to model is probably the West Country followed by the Midlands,

 

The news is not all bad.  I'd say new RTR models of 3-car units are unlikely with the market as it is at present; they'd never make a profit and would have to be discounted to clear shelves.  I could be wrong of course; I'm a modeller not an RTR marketing executive.  If you are ok with painting and providing your own interiors, and doing a bit of surgery to models, it is possible to make a good impression of a 116, absolute core material for the WR in the Midlands in your era, out of Lima or Bachmann 117 donors, but it's not cheap.  The news is a little better in regard to the 120; Rue d'Etropal of this very parish as ever is markets 3D bodyshell prints of all the 120 vehicles, to sit on top of Lima or Bachmann chassis donors, again not cheap but a lot less work than the 116 or the various aly bodyshell kits, which can be made up into fine models but are really more in the nature of scratch aids.

 

It comes down to having the money to spend and being willing to spend it, something you have to work out your own equation for.  Dmus are a poor relation in the RTR world, and it seems mad to me when obscure steam locos that only ever ran on the Lyme Regis or Wenford Bridge branches for most of their lives are produced, and sell successfully, when so much of the dmu world is unrepresented; no WR sets except 117, no BRCW 104s, no Gloucester 100s or 119s, no BRCW 104s, Wickham 108s, Park Royal 103s, Pressed Steel 118s, Swindon 3- or 4-car Inter Cities, and many variations of the existing RTR provisions left out as well. 120s were widewpread geographically in their later lives, appearing in the East Midlands, Lincolnshire, and Southern Scotland, and 116s got everywhere, though the class encompasses several cab styles and two types of centre trailer, an all second and a composite.  But the companies don't care what I think, and why should they, following my suggestions is probably as quick a road to bankruptcy as any...

 

The current RTR provision, IIRC 117, 101, 108, Cravens not sure which of the 4 classes, and 110 Calder Valley, will 'do' at a push for modelling the LMR, ER, NER, and ScR, but the WR is ill served.  117 did spread around the region in the later 70s and 80s, but not for long.

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56 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If I'm not mistaken, that is standing on the traverser at Moor Street?

Why?  It wouldn't need to be released from other stock.

 

 

Perhaps it has arrived and then been blocked in by a later arrival on the same road being signalled in by the 'calling on' board.  Impressed that it fits on the traverser, though; it's a good bit longer  than most locos on Moor Street terminating services...

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Be careful of Rue d'Etropal's products... They all seem to have some level of issues, some very glaring others not so, in particular bodyside profiles seem to be an issue.. Have a look at his thread for examples of what has been pointed out to him, and his carefree responses...

 

Be careful with railcar.co.uk, its a wormhole that you can get lost in for days!

 

Andy G

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12 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If I'm not mistaken, that is standing on the traverser at Moor Street?

Why?  It wouldn't need to be released from other stock.

 

 

Common Western practice at many dead end platforms was to have short trains right up against the blocks so that entraining passengers didn't have to walk too far to get on their train.  The number of trains that regularly started away  with one coach bogie, or even a push-pull engines, having to negotiate a facing point which had no locking bar/FPL or detecting signal must have been quite considerable at one time but nobody seemed bothered about it.

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On 02/12/2021 at 01:58, The Johnster said:

Are we talking about the WR, LMR, or both.

 

On the WR, class 116 3-car sets were introduced into the Birmingham area in 1958 IIRC, in the unlined green 'speed whisker' livery and without gangways.  Nobody has ever done an RTR model of this and whilst it is possible to make a reasonable representation by cut'n'shutting Lima or Bachmann 117s, it is an expensive and time consuming game needing 5 coaches to prise a 3-car unit out of*, especially at Bachmann prices.  You have to remove the headcode panels and replace them with smaller destination board panels.  These ran with class 122 bubble cars and DTS trailers as well, but these did not appear until the early 60s. 

 

There were also Swindon Cross Country sets used on Cardiff-Birmingham services, and also not available in RTR form.

 

I know this is not what you want to read if you are modelling the WR side of Birmingham's railways, but this is the state of play,  Swindon Cross Country 120s are high scorers in wishlist polls and have been for some time, but no manufacturer has yet taken the hint.  116s seem very unlikely since Bachmann's repeat of the 117, only suitable for London area in your period.

 

The GWR railcars, both 'flying banana' and 'razor' styles, ran in the Birmingham area, though TTBOMK the flying bananas did not survive long enough to recieve green livery and ended their days in early BR crimson and cream.  Crimson/cream and lined green 'razors' could be both seen, though.  These are available as RTR models, Lima/Hornby doing the 'razor' single car and twin set types, and Heljan doing the 'flying banana'.

 

Auto traliers operated with auto fitted steam locomotives in a push-pull setup, the train being driven from the auto trailer cab when the locomotive was propelling it; these are not the same thing as a dmu or diesel railcar and were not compatible with them.  They did run in the Birmingham area, though. 

 

Over at New Street, the LMR featured Metro-Cammell, Cravens, and Derby (class 108) types, all of which are readily available in RTR, and the BRCW class 104s, which aren't.

 

 

*I know, having done exactly this with Lima donors some 40 years ago. when they were insanely cheap even for those days.  I still have the set, and it still runs reasonably well.

 

 

 

 


Thank you @The Johnster for a comprehensive reply. Just to add to this, the class 116 started in 1957 in the WR Birmingham Division (all based at Tyseley though some were out stationed elsewhere overnight). These were the first of the class to appear (see the class 116 thread at the top of the ‘Prototype Questions’ for a lot more detail). Prior to that Swindon Inter-City units (no TOPS code) ran a Snow Hill to Cardiff express service - via Stratford On Avon, Cheltenham, Gloucester (the units were transferred to the ScR, replaced by class 119 and 120 when they were first introduced. 
 

Class 122 appeared in 1958 in the WR Birmingham Division (W55002 - 55010 being allocated). They were used on numerous branch and feeder services (eg Snow Hill to Dudley; Dudley to Old Hill; Leamington to Stratford on Avon and Gloucester; Worcester to Bromyard; Hartlebury to Bewdley to Shrewsbury and Much Wenlock, and Stourbridge Junction to Town), sone of which had been worked previously by GW rail cars. Some of these services were subject to Beeching closures in the early/mid 60s. The units were based at Tyseley but could be seen parked at places like Leamington and Worcester. In addition some of these worked with drive end trailers (number series W56291-9) some of which were based at Tyseley. The other duty the class 122 performed was temporary replacement of motor cars in class 116 units (especially in the early years of the 116). Class 122 are available RTR in guises in which they ran in the Birmingham Division (Dapol). Until 1962 or so, ex GWR units ran at the same time also (generally the later non streamlined type) - notably (but not exclusively) on the Severn Valley and Tenbury Wells services - most of the survivors were in BR early DMU green (available RTR - Heljan - I’ve just bought W32W in green as this was at Worcester at the beginning of the 60s). The GW survivors appear to have been replaced by 1961/2 by W55012 and 18, direct from the London Division (replaced by new class 121 units there), and subsequently 55017/9 after a brief visit to the West Country. 55019 departed to Cardiff in around 1964 - 55013 made a brief appearance from Cornwall and returned after a matter of months (confusing me greatly as I had seen it several times and presumed it was a long-standing Tyseley unit!!!) There are also photos on line on 55001 on Birmingham based services when very new - possibly in advance of receipt of subsequent units?
 

Another type of DMU not mentioned here is the class 119, which was quite ubiquitous on the ex WR lines in the Birmingham Division. They were cross country units used on longer services. In fact some of class 120 (some of the first and the whole of the second batches) were allocated initially to Tyseley. A number of class 119 Cross Country units were allocated there in replacement for the 120s, which were transferred to Cardiff and the West Country. 
 

Finally, W55993-6 of class 128 started life in the WR Birmingham Division and worked on lines such as Stourbridge Junction-Snow Hill-Stratford - collecting/delivering parcels at each station. These are also available RTR (Heljan). 
 

Class 123 units, when new, operated a Cardiff to Derby service via New Street and Lickey. 
 

Only a handful of local services remained steam hauled in the Birmingham WR Division in the early 60s - train spotting at Snow Hill would largely be DMUs, steam hauled freight and diesel hauled express passenger, with a handful of stopping passenger services steam hauled. 


The WR Birmingham Division transferred to the LMR in 1963 and all of the units (possibly with the exception of the 119s until transferred to Chester in 1967) allocated to Tyseley at that stage had their W numbers progressively replaced by M (on a painted green square covering the W - quite useful for modellers renumbering their RTR green liveried ones!!). 
 

New Street started off with Derby Lightweights (B’ham to Four Oaks). There were also class 103 Park Royal (the whole batch at one time or another) and class 100 (GRCW - almost all the LM allocation); 2 car and 3 car class 101, all of which were progressively introduced. The latter replaced the Derby Lightweights, the service having developed in passenger numbers significantly enough - the class 101 3 cars were used on New St to Sutton Coldfield to Four Oaks to Lichfield, and the corresponding predecessor of the Cross City Line, New Street to Barnt Green to Redditch. The 2 car 101 units tended to be seen on Nuneaton to Coventry to Leamington and New Street to Walsall to Rugeley. The class 100, 103, 2 car 104 and for a matter of weeks, class 108 units were based at Ryecroft (Walsall) and appeared on Black Country LM services like Wolverhampton-Walsall-Brownhills; Walsall to Dudley. The 3 car class 104 and 106 units worked into New Street from East Midlands destinations like Leicester and Derby on stopping services and in the case of the 3 car 104s on stopping services from the north (including Stoke and Stafford). 
 

Class 129 parcels cars also worked on parcels duties running from Ryecroft (such as to Coventry) in the early days of DMUs - the usual suspect being M55998. 
 

The Birmingham LM area local services changed significantly from the mid 60s (Beeching closures took out most of the Black Country and other services based on Ryecroft leaving just the Walsall to New Street via Perry Barr service. The  Nuneaton to Leamington, New St to Walsall via Sutton Park were also withdrawn). The 2 car class 104s moved to Manchester and the 2 car class 101s to Chester. 
 

The electrification of the LM lines (fully functioning service from 1967) resulted in the class 100 and 103s being banished (the latter to Chester for Cambrian Lines generally) and replaced by class AM4 and AM10 on local and longer distance stopping services New Street to Wolverhampton, New Street to Coventry/Rugby and New Street to Walsall services. 3 car class 101s remained on their previously allocated services, but based at the new Soho depot rather than Monument Lane (ex carriage shed) which was closed. 3 car class 104 and 106 continued to operate the services they had previously (largely LM Midland Lines) but like all other routes, with some intermediate stations gradually closing over the period from the mid 60s. 
 

At the introduction of the electrified LM services, Snow Hill was closed as a through station, retaining a generally class 122 operated pair of services to Wolverhampton Low Level and Langley Green & Oldbury. The stopping services to Stourbridge and Kidderminster moved to New Street and ran via Soho, Smethwick Rolfe St to regain the previous route at Smethwick West, but continued to be operated by Tyseley based class 116 units (although often seen parked at Soho, which the service now passed en route to Smethwick). The Moor St to Stratford and Leamington services remained operated by class 116 units based at Tyseley. Longer distance services like the service to Cardiff continued to be operated by class 119/120 but from New Street and some via Lickey and Worcester to Gloucester (rather than Stratford/Honeybourne/

Cheltenham) after that route closed. 
 

Tyseley lost class 122s 55002, 55005 and 55007 in around 1968 (55000, 11, 13, 14 and 15 moving from the South West also to Scotland (55000 along with 4 AC Cars Railbuses in 1967)). This was all probably caused by lack of work due to line closures. 

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5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Common Western practice at many dead end platforms was to have short trains right up against the blocks so that entraining passengers didn't have to walk too far to get on their train.  The number of trains that regularly started away  with one coach bogie, or even a push-pull engines, having to negotiate a facing point which had no locking bar/FPL or detecting signal must have been quite considerable at one time but nobody seemed bothered about it.

It may not have been totally by the book, but a derailment in such circumstances would have had minor consequences compared to a full-blooded derailment at speed on a set of open facing points. His Majesty’s Inspectors were pragmatic people, a characteristic that seems to have taken something of a back seat these days.

 

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5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Common Western practice at many dead end platforms was to have short trains right up against the blocks so that entraining passengers didn't have to walk too far to get on their train.  The number of trains that regularly started away  with one coach bogie, or even a push-pull engines, having to negotiate a facing point which had no locking bar/FPL or detecting signal must have been quite considerable at one time but nobody seemed bothered about it.

Hence the expression, 'The GWR way or the Right way'!

 

:)

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7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Common Western practice at many dead end platforms was to have short trains right up against the blocks so that entraining passengers didn't have to walk too far to get on their train.  The number of trains that regularly started away  with one coach bogie, or even a push-pull engines, having to negotiate a facing point which had no locking bar/FPL or detecting signal must have been quite considerable at one time but nobody seemed bothered about it.


This sounds very pragmatic and passenger focussed, something public transport operators have, in the past and currently, been in the habit of ignoring or overlooking, often it seems for the sake of operating convenience - I would cite examples of arriving on a six car Javelin unit at St Pancras International and disembarking only to find I have to walk the length of the unit and another 6 cars because someone has decided to stable 6 car units at the buffers for later use - this is even more infuriating if arriving at the platform with only a few minutes to departure and finding the need to walk (or run) 6 + cars to get to the train - East Midlands used to often do the same at their platforms - but with 5 car trains - and not announcing their platform until 5 mins to departure.  I suspect a lot of people have missed trains owing to this type of ‘operational convenience’. 
 

Back to the GW unit at Moor St - I wonder when that photo was taken - is it possible it was standing in, for parcels use? 
 

One type I omitted from units in use  at Birmingham New St was the Wickham 2 car type - they appeared quite regularly on services from the East Anglia/Peterborough direction (sorry - not ex GW lines but still Birmingham). 

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20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The current RTR provision, IIRC 117, 101, 108, Cravens not sure which of the 4 classes, and 110 Calder Valley, will 'do' at a push for modelling the LMR, ER, NER, and ScR, but the WR is ill served.  117 did spread around the region in the later 70s and 80s, but not for long.


I think ex GW modellers are blessed currently with the class 121/122 and 128 offerings. These were present in most ex GW settings. The 116, as has been observed by many, seems to be the biggest hole in the ex GW offering if modelling anything but the London/Reading/Oxford areas in some part of the 1960-70s period. They were used on relatively short local stopping train services in the earlier days (often on secondary lines like Snow Hill-Stourbridge Junction-Kidderminster; Newton Abbott - Exeter- Exmouth; South Wales Valleys; North Warwickshire Line) whereas 119/120s were used largely on longer distance ‘main line’ services -although services such as Birmingham-Stratford on Avon-Honeybourne-Evesham-Worcester and Snow Hill to Cardiff would have operated in part on secondary routes. I would certainly buy a mid 60s appropriate class 116 for my North Worcestershire based layout setting. 

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2 hours ago, MidlandRed said:



 

Back to the GW unit at Moor St - I wonder when that photo was taken - is it possible it was standing in, for parcels use? 
 

23rd September 1950. It's hard in black and white but it's clearly the early livery. 

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19 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

How are you defining 'earlier' ?  .......An early British Railways ( red & cream ) livery would be pretty fresh at that date - so I suspect it's retaining chocolate and cream from its earlier owner.

 

Perhaps.

 

Some photographic film responded differently to different colours.

 

Also, I'm not sure how dark the red was, when ex-GWR railcars were repainted into BR colours.

 

Personally, I'd like to think it might have been dark (as I think it would have looked good on the railcars - yes, I'm thinking about my own planned build) - but I get the impression that there might have been some variation in the BR "red & cream" livery. (This might also explain my deliberately vague description of the colour scheme.)

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