Hornby Points - Where is the sticking Point?

[latestarter]

3 minutes ago, ITG said:

I’ve had good results with this. No connection except for satisfied customer. There are videos on YouTube of it.

 

https://www.themodelcentre.com/gm60-gaugemaster-trix-style-66602-oo-ho-scale-wheel-cleaner-cleaning-brush

Thanks, I'll see if the only Railway model shop in Ireland has it, or it's available via Amazon. There's no other option for me for buying a lot of accessories as UK mail is getting 'lost' for weeks (or forever) and/or the postage is astronomical.

[Phil Parker]

6 minutes ago, latestarter said:

Thanks Phil - my pins could bit a bit 'tight', I'll double-check. By the way, I subscribed to BRM solely because of your articles and videos online and am currently watching your excellent 'Ground Cover' video. Let's put this post in the 'sycophancy at dawn' folder.  

 

Thanks! I'll have to tell my boss.

 

You might find the Loco servicing piece in the Virtual Show useful too for checking pickups.

[latestarter]

1 minute ago, Phil Parker said:

 

You might find the Loco servicing piece in the Virtual Show useful too for checking pickups.

Thanks, I'm in there now and will get to it soon. Only found 19 of the 20 'spot the differences', and it's keeping me busy!

[Butler Henderson]

33 minutes ago, GeraldH said:

Setrack curved points can be a bit tricky.  I have two of the latest generation of Hornby Curved Points on my layout and they work well.  Almost nothing stalls or derails on them.  Earlier generations of Hornby curved points were troublesome.  The Bachmann ones are subtly different and mine did cause regular derailments

The Bachmann ones are made from the Roco tooling that Hornby used before switching production to China, I wonder if the gauge narrowing issue was resolved.

[Il Grifone]

Track should not be fixed down too securely in my experience. I lay mine on 3mm cork sheet and glue it down using fabric adhesive. Pins are reserved for plain track, where curves might cause it to shift.

 

I was having trouble with a Peco curved point with rolling stock jamming/derailing on the crossing. First check B2B (NMRA wheels 14.4/14.6* mm). OK! so check the track. The wheel flanges were hitting the check rail! An overgenerous flangeway - presumably an early version. A new check rail solved the problem.   

A programme of eliminating plastic crossing noses (I suppose it's OK to call them 'frogs' since the layout follows American practice (ATSF and SP) or at least my impression of it) is in operation. Short wheelbase 0-6-0 switchers need particular care. Gauge wandering too much (see below) needs attention. It may need cutting/replacing sleepers to correct.

 

* The NMRA tolerances are rather precise and, being American, are translated from thousandths of an inch. See their website.

 

IPA used to be readily available as tape head cleaner. I suspect that in today's digital age this is no help....  Here in Italy clear denatured alcohol is readily available in supermarkets and is a reasonable substitute.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Il Grifone

[cadder toad]

I would do three things with this problem before spending money on anything. (No. 1 being most important)

1. Check the point is truly level and all railheads are on the same plane. A spirit level is adequate for this, checking that the point is level across its width at various points(placing the spirit level across the rails). I would adjust by using cardboard or plastic spacers as required, usually 0.5-1mm is enough

2. Look underneath the loco and make sure all pick ups are touching the wheels - you can usually see if they're not. Move the wheels side to side and make sure they still touch. You can also check pick ups using power and flying leads - a more thorough method

3. Once the point is level and you're happy with the pick ups, run the loco slowly and if it stops then get a length of wire, clip to one rail and take the other end to each wheel in turn(each wheel on the rail on that side) and see when it restarts. It might not restart so repeat but with the wire clipped to the rail and wheels on the opposite side. It might be easier to remove the loco body to do all this.

 

Hopefully the answer will have revealed itself but if not then there are a number of further potential solutions, some already suggested and all these have merit too. All part of the fun of railway modelling! 

[latestarter]

@Il Grifone and @cadder toad Thanks for the additional thoughts. I have noticed a point where the rails are not in vertical alignment, so the 'spacer' idea was very helpful, and I had been contemplating bending the rail upwards!

@cadder toad Can you add a bit more to this....3. Once the point is level and you're happy with the pick ups, run the loco slowly and if it stops then get a length of wire, clip to one rail and take the other end to each wheel in turn(each wheel on the rail on that side) and see when it restarts. It might not restart so repeat but with the wire clipped to the rail and wheels on the opposite side. It might be easier to remove the loco body to do all this. If the wheels don't turn, what does it tell me and is there a fix?

Thanks again.

[cadder toad]

...If the wheels don't turn, what does it tell me and is there a fix?

Don't bother with no. 3 until you're really convinced that no. 1 is ok - ie point is truly level...

 

If the loco began to run when the wire was touched to the right leading wheel for example, it could mean, pickups on centre and trailing wheels on right side are not working. Look for dirt or the point curvature may be causing the wheel to move sideways, for example. 

[DCB]

The test tells you which wheels are not picking up, if the loco ,moves when the wire is stroked across the wheel and the loco moves that wheel was not making contact. It may well be all 3 wheels on that side aren't making contact but if you can sort out one of the three then the loco shouldn't stall there again.    Most wheels run on the inside edge of the rails not the tops, some awful wheels (Dapol) run on the tops but most are coned and run on the inside  edges so clean those edges.    The distance between the wheel backs, the "Back to Back" varies so the Hornby points have wide flangeways to suit their old wheels which were notoriously tight, which lets the outside wheel bang into any irregularities and the point frog if it has correct  or wide back to back measurements.  Its a minefield.

[Il Grifone]

We are back to the check gauge. In an ideal world, all flanges would be the same thickness, but of course they are not!  Flange thickness varies from about 0.4mm on 'finescale' wheels* to well over a millimetre on some of the coarser rubbish out there.

The critical dimension is the check gauge back to back + flange thickness. When the back of one flange is against the check rail the front of the flange on the other wheel of the set must miss the crossing nose. This should be constant.

The NMRA website goes into this in some detail.

 

Real rails are inclined inwards so that the coned wheel runs on the flat(ish) top of the rail. Model rails are not so refined. Once upon a time they had a rounded top, so wheel profile was not very important.

Hornby's history is rather complicated. Back in the days when they were Tri-ang, the wheels were extremely crude. On taking over Hornby (Meccano) they adopted the Dublo track/wheel standards, which became the norm, adopted by Lima and Mainline etc.. (Still coarse, just not as bad) and it took nearly forty years before something finer appeared.

 

* By this, I didn't intend P4. On the real thing wheels are 5" thick of which about an inch is flange. Locomotive wheels were/are probably a bit more. The GWR (see below) favoured 5¾".

[meil]

I think the fundamental issue here is that you can only expect toy train performance from toy train track.

 

If you want more satisfactory running then you need better track, laid properly.

[latestarter]

26 minutes ago, meil said:

I think the fundamental issue here is that you can only expect toy train performance from toy train track.

 

If you want more satisfactory running then you need better track, laid properly.

Ouch!

[cadder toad]

Fifty years ago my first layout was laid on foam underlay - the kind with recesses for the sleepers. Maybe a dozen points. Baseboards sat on the carpet, all track straight from the Hornby boxes. No particular effort into levelling the track. 50+ locos, coaches and wagons ran everywhere except one or two had different issues on different stretches of track. It was temporary and only set up for high days and holidays. Over the years I was able to fix some of the glitches but not all, although given more time I would have. Sometimes it can be frustrating  but there's a process to ironing out the minor faults. Toy train performance can be very good. (That was the aim in the 00 concept after all)

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Well because of this thread I have just checked a job lot of new old stock Hornby points I bought quite cheaply. And every one causes some of my engines to derail when going of the points whenturning either left or right. Nothing derails going straight on. They all derail n the turn off raols where the point trackwork seems to narrow. That is 15 Lt and Rt hand points and 3 curved points. So they may not have been such abargain after all. 

[Georgeconna]

On 05/12/2021 at 13:55, latestarter said:

Thanks, I'll see if the only Railway model shop in Ireland has it, or it's available via Amazon. There's no other option for me for buying a lot of accessories as UK mail is getting 'lost' for weeks (or forever) and/or the postage is astronomical.

 

IPA can be dropped to you within Ireland No hassle. Got some Dropped the other week from these lads.

 

https://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/electronics-cleaners/2274427?cm_mmc=IE-PLA-DS3A-_-google-_-CSS_IE_EN_Facilities_Cleaning_%26_Maintenance_Whoop_HI+(2)-_-(IE:Whoop!)+Electronics+Cleaners-_-2274427&matchtype=&pla-299936613816&gclid=Cj0KCQiAqbyNBhC2ARIsALDwAsAbzHcJr8aTWk7AqwJLyZKOOdfC8vD2Ebejmz0Zgly1TUd_ZCltFBYaAgqEEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

On getting the paint off the  metal parts of the track Cellusose thinners  for enamel will take it off no bother with a damp cloth, Not for the plastic sleepers though.

 

Marks don't have the Cleaning Cradle

 

I have used white spirits and cotton buds for my wheels and a Fiberglass pen for the pick ups. Everything works perfect.

 

BTW there is a Irish Form too that may help:  https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/

 

Hope all is good in Kerry today

 

George

Cork.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by Georgeconna

[latestarter]

19 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

 

IPA can be dropped to you within Ireland No hassle. Got some Dropped the other week from these lads.

 

https://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/electronics-cleaners/2274427?cm_mmc=IE-PLA-DS3A-_-google-_-CSS_IE_EN_Facilities_Cleaning_%26_Maintenance_Whoop_HI+(2)-_-(IE:Whoop!)+Electronics+Cleaners-_-2274427&matchtype=&pla-299936613816&gclid=Cj0KCQiAqbyNBhC2ARIsALDwAsAbzHcJr8aTWk7AqwJLyZKOOdfC8vD2Ebejmz0Zgly1TUd_ZCltFBYaAgqEEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

On getting the paint off the  metal parts of the track Cellusose thinners  for enamel will take it off no bother with a damp cloth, Not for the plastic sleepers though.

 

Marks don't have the Cleaning Cradle

 

I have used white spirits and cotton buds for my wheels and a Fiberglass pen for the pick ups. Everything works perfect.

 

BTW there is a Irish Form too that may help:  https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/

 

Hope all is good in Kerry today

 

George

Cork.

 

 

 

Really helpful post George, thank you very much indeed. I'll look up your links and try and get some IPA. Everything in the house is rattling, and I can hardly hear the TTS in the train room with the dormer window! I hope you're not flooded in Cork!

[smokebox]

An alternative to IPA is methylated spirits.  Not quite as good as IPA but works well and is easier to get hold of and should be cheaper.

 

Another option is lighter fluid (Naptha).  Make sure there are no naked flames in the room and keep well ventilated

 

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[Georgeconna]

3 hours ago, latestarter said:

 

Really helpful post George, thank you very much indeed. I'll look up your links and try and get some IPA. Everything in the house is rattling, and I can hardly hear the TTS in the train room with the dormer window! I hope you're not flooded in Cork!

All ok here, down in East Cork in a valley so all is quite ok!

 

[Harlequin]

This is has been posted before on RMWeb but if you really want to get into some deep ideas about track cleaning have a look at this famous article about Polar and Non-Polar solvents and their effects on micro-arcing between wheels and track.

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/mrhpub.com/2019-05-may/online/index.html?page=9

 

[DCB]

There is also a mis match between the Hornby sectional track intended to be laid on the kitchen table or lounge floor and the scale model locos, like the Dapol Terrier later sold by Hornby.

With the Terrier, ex Dapol and quite fine scale and light,  I would get a coupe of wires attached to your track with crocodile clips or similar and turn the Terrier upside down and put one wire to the tread of a left side wheel and one to a right side wheel and make sure it runs. Try every combination of lefts and rights.   DO NOT try two lefts or two rights, you will damage the pick ups. (Especially if using DCC or rechargable batteries for the test)  If any combination fails determine which wheel is at fault  check the tyre is clean , if the tread is dirty clean it and try again, if it still don't work  it's a pickup the contact strip which rubs on the wheel back at fault clean the wheel back and very carefully clean the contact strip. Once all 6 (sometimes 4 on older engines,) wheels  conduct power from your wires and let the loco run upside down (in its cradle )   Then on try it on the point/ If it stalls apply one wire to attached to the left rail to each left wheel in turn ,with power on and then one attached to the right rail to  each wheel in turn.  When the loco starts you have identified which wheel is not making contact , try the wheels on the metal rails, not much point trying the  plastic blobs.  You need at least one wheel each side making contact.  all the time. Be wary, a mod to the point to let the Terrier run might cause a Diesel with traction tyres to derail.  Have Fun 

Edited December 7, 2021 by DCB

[Steamport Southport]

That's a proper new Hornby Terrier though, not an ex Dapol version. Should work perfectly fine on Hornby track.

 

 

 

Comments such as toy train track should be avoided. Nothing wrong with Hornby track. It's ideal for beginners. That's the point of it. If not everyone would be starting out using P4.

 

 

 

Jason

[latestarter]

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

Comments such as toy train track should be avoided. Nothing wrong with Hornby track. It's ideal for beginners. That's the point of it. If not everyone would be starting out using P4.

Thank you Jason. I've been avoiding responding to the toy train comments as I think it says more about the writer's than me. I will say though, that the authors of the Hornby track plans books must be toy train fans. Some of those plans can be very complex, and they are all made with set track.

[RJS1977]

52 minutes ago, latestarter said:

Thank you Jason. I've been avoiding responding to the toy train comments as I think it says more about the writer's than me. I will say though, that the authors of the Hornby track plans books must be toy train fans. Some of those plans can be very complex, and they are all made with set track.

 

And I will also say, often designed with little thought to operation. Sidings facing the wrong way is a common issue with those plans!