Very early BR liveries

[Sylvian Tennant]

Hi there

 

I apologies if I am becoming a source of irritation for you with all of these questions.

 

However I would like a further few questions answered to clear my mind for a range of future projects.

 

Regarding Early “BRITISH RAILWAYS†liveries.

 

I would like to know the follow details:

 

 

What specific liveries were carried by the Black 5’s & Ivatt 4MTs?

 

Also is anyone knows if Ivatt 4MT “43038†carried any of these livieries?

 

What A3’s carried the “BRITISH RAILWAYS†Apple Green Livery? And if possible any specific details surrounding them (ie domes, chimney’s tenders etc) I’m aware of a few but not the whole lot.

 

What other unusual liveries were carried and by which locomotives? (regardless of region)

 

What coaching stock carried the “plum & spilt milk†livery?

 

What were the liveries carried by goods stock inc unfitted, fitted, box vans and brake vans?

 

I know this is a lot to ask of and for the moment it’s just for curiosity but it is something I am hoping to put to practical use in the near future.

 

 

Thank you guys

[gresley]

Hi there

 

I apologies if I am becoming a source of irritation for you with all of these questions.

 

However I would like a further few questions answered to clear my mind for a range of future projects.

 

Regarding Early “BRITISH RAILWAYS†liveries.

 

I would like to know the follow details:

 

 

What specific liveries were carried by the Black 5’s & Ivatt 4MTs?

 

Also is anyone knows if Ivatt 4MT “43038†carried any of these livieries?

 

What A3’s carried the “BRITISH RAILWAYS†Apple Green Livery? And if possible any specific details surrounding them (ie domes, chimney’s tenders etc) I’m aware of a few but not the whole lot.

 

What other unusual liveries were carried and by which locomotives? (regardless of region)

 

What coaching stock carried the “plum & spilt milk†livery?

 

What were the liveries carried by goods stock inc unfitted, fitted, box vans and brake vans?

 

I know this is a lot to ask of and for the moment it’s just for curiosity but it is something I am hoping to put to practical use in the near future.

 

 

Thank you guys

 

My first reaction is that you are asking for a hell of a lot. However, having said that, I suggest that you go to your local library if you haven't got any books yourself. RCTS Locomotives of the LNER; Vol 2 A, will give you all you want to know about the A3 class.

 

Similarly, there are books covering the other items you list.

 

Finally, a good investment would be a few books on the subjects. Most of them can be bought secondhand at reasonable prices and you would have the beginning of a collection of reference books which would give you a mass of information.

 

That's how most of us do these things.

 

gresley

[Il Grifone]

Some of this has already been covered on RMweb. The search function should help.

'BRITISH RAILWAYS' was only used until the appearance of the cycling lion from about 08/48 and would have been applied to locos built/serviced in this period.

At least at the beginning of the period, the pre-nationalisation liveries would have have still been in evidence. From then on the standard BR liveries would have gradually been applied. The experimental liveries were only applied to a limited quantity of stock.

 

EDIT

 

That should be 08/49

[OFFTHE RAILS]

Re: Ivatt 4F/4MT 2-6-0 43038 : this loco was built at Horwich 23/6/1949. I have no pictures of this loco as built but I do have a picture of 43032 which was built two months earlier 14/4/1949 which was in black lined livery with BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender.

43049 was built in Nov 1949 and this was finished in BR lined black with the small BR emblem.

Ian

[Hammer]

As regards unusual liveries, several locos carried BR Express Blue. There are two variations though, one which is closer to Caledonian Railways blue, and a darker version. Off the top of my head, it was carried by a few A3s, A4s and the de-streamlined Coronations. There was also the experimental purple livery, which was used on a couple of A4s.

 

Edit: This site should help you a lot with details of the A3s and A4s.

 

At the beginning of May 1949, there were 4 engines in the Experimental Purple Livery, (Nos. 60024, 60027, 60028, & 60029), 4 engines in Garter Blue Livery still carrying their L.N.E.R. number and insignia, (Nos. 14, 25, 26, & 32), One engine in Garter Blue Livery carrying its temporary No. E-22, with BRITISH RAILWAYS on the Tender, and the remaining 25 were all in Garter Blue Livery, and carrying their 6xxxx Numbers with BRITISH RAILWAYS on the Tender.

 

[Donw]

Plum and spilt milk sounds like the LNWR which would not have been used after 1923.

quite a few items of stock were still in big four liveries until well into the fifties.

Donw

[Hammer]

Plum and spilt milk sounds like the LNWR which would not have been used after 1923.

quite a few items of stock were still in big four liveries until well into the fifties.

Donw

 

Several liveries, including LNWR plum, GWR brown and cream and carmine and cream (can't remember which company that was from) were applied to BR stock around about 1948. None of them except carmine and cream lasted long.

[SRman]

Several liveries, including LNWR plum, GWR brown and cream and carmine and cream (can't remember which company that was from) were applied to BR stock around about 1948. None of them except carmine and cream lasted long.

 

 

I can't remember, off the top of my head, which stock carried the plum and split milk but there was at least one rake of Stanier coaches in chocolate and cream. I had a feeling (to be confirmed!) that some Bulleid stock was involved too; possibly that carried the LNWR style livery??

[chrisf]

I've found some info in the June 1948 issue of the Railway Observer which sheds some light on this question:-

 

" ... details are now available concerning the experimental painting of rolling stock. The locomotives will be:-

 

Most powerful passenger: blue with red, cream and grey lining

 

Other express passenger: green, with similar lining

 

Mixed traffic: black, with similar lining

 

Freight: black, unlined

 

The coaching stock will be:-

 

Main Line corridor trains: (a) plum and spilt milk lined with bands of yellow - maroon - yellow separated by lines of spilt milk. (B) chocolate and cream lined with black and golden yellow

 

Local suburban steam trains: maroon lined with golden yellow - black - golden yellow

 

Multiple-unit electric stock: green

 

There followed a long list of trains [excluding the suburbans, of course] on which sets in these colour schemes might be seen, spread across all regions. The public were invited to vote, though as always how much notice was taken of the response was anybody's guess. From a later RO it appears that the Western had one set in each main line livery for the Cornish Riviera - not the then latest Hawksworths, please note, but the 1938-40 vintage Colletts. It is probably too much to expect that anyone thought to record the numbers of the coaches, though as one RCTS member based in the West Country had an obsession with dining cars and told RO readers all about them (whether or not they wanted to know) we might be pleasantly surprised. If I come across any more details I will post again. The locos which bore strange paintwork were, of course, very well recorded!

 

The "maroon" to be used for suburban stock was emphatically NOT crimson: that was introduced in 1949. The description used widely by RCTS members was "wine red". It lingered on after the new colour was introduced because Swindon had so much maroon paint to use up and stock was still carrying it well into the 1950s. Oh for a colour slide of this little-known livery!

 

Chris

[Colin]

To really confirm the period, how about having a couple of locos (as per the A3 already mentioned) still in post-war pre nationalisation livery and numbering but with a regional prefix to the number - such as "m5045" for a Black 5, "s1866" for a N class mogul etc. (I don't know if the locos I've quoted are correct, they're just examples). If you can get hold of a copy, H C Casserley's "Locomotives of British Railways" depicts several locos adorned thus - the prefix letter seems to be a fairly makeshift stencilled addition (often above the main cabside number, just below the power classification) and not in the same style as the main number. Smokebox numberplates could also sport a similar addition, which could look very odd.

 

Plum/spilt milk livery - at least one Bulleid 3-coach corridor set carried this scheme, as did some Stanier pattern stock (some of which also ran in choc/cream for a short while).

[Sylvian Tennant]

Thanks guys, I shall tery to refrain from asking more questions about this (as I know I have asked pently and fear I will be going around in circles if I continue at this rate!)

 

gresley: Thanks for the tip, I know a friend who may be able to help me out book wise! just I thought I'd check this place out first since it's cheaper.

 

Il Grifone: Interesting you say that, I tended to think the cycle and lion bage cropped up around mid-1950.

 

Hammer: Excellent, I never though of using that site!! That will come in handy

 

Donw: True, however, BR experiment with some carriages during the nationalisation process. I've seen black and white photos of Stanier & Maunsell (I think though SRman & Colin have proved me wrong there) stock but unfortunatly no coloured one and at the moment only in very short local rakes, I woulkd greatly appreciate it if anyone has any information on express rakes having this livery applied. Since most of my stuff is ER/MR I was hoping some Gresley stock has been painted in it!

 

Chrisf: That's a massive help. (And I agree with the colour slides!) and thanks for answering my question above! I would love to hear anything on MR/ER stock (local or express)

 

Colin: Actually yes that is my other alternative too Currently I've seen a Black 5 and a 4MT with this numering pattern. At the moment I'm still in the deciding stages about how I want to number/livery them. I wouldn't mind doing the City/Duchess that was on the Southern Reagion during the exchanges with the BR numbering but WD tender in LMS black!!!

 

OFFTHERAILS: Thank you, I may do some digging myself to see if I can find out what liveriy it would have carried. The reason I specifically wanted 43038 was that I have it already but would have liked to have back dated it after seeing Chris Nevards model of 43017. If at all would it be possible if you PM me the picture? I have yet to see one in lined BRITISH RAILWAYS livery and I may have to resort to renumbering anyway if that is the case.

 

 

Again one thing I'm wondering about is the liveries applied to freight stock to at this time. I know alot of the open wagons have pre-nationalise liveries or were shopped out unpainted but I've read nothing about brake van and box vans or anything fitted. Most frustrating.

 

Thanks for a very interested thread guys

[Ceptic]

Hi

One excellent source of reference on the subject would be to aquire the book "Railway Liveries, BR Steam 1948-1968" by Brian Haresnape, revised by Colin Boocock, published/re-printed by Ian Allan 1989/1993 ISBN 0 7110 1856 1.

The cover features a painting by George Herion of Jubilee class 45694 BELLEROPHON in Apple Green hauling a train of Stanier coaches in Chocolate and Cream out of St. Pancras.

There's plenty of photographic material inside, including many colour shots.

 

Regards.

[random]

This book has a chapter on early BR liveries and is a very cheap read:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Big-Four-Colour-1935-50/dp/0906899621

 

It was often one of the titles offered very cheaply to entice people to join the The Railway Book Club and therefore many must have been printed hence they are very cheap to buy now.

[Caledonian]

Very much a how long is a piece of string question. There was so much variation that you really need to sort out what's to be portrayed. The British Transport Commission came up with all sorts of clever ideas on liveries but never really caught up until the last steam engines had been safely scrapped - which is why I prefer the immediate post nationalisation period to the steam/diesel transition.

 

In very basic terms, all of the above applies, but locomotives could be seen in LNER and LMS livery - including the lettering on the tenders or side tanks - with new British Railways numbers well into the 50s. Gresley coaches similarly ran well into the 50s in teak and some appear to have made the transition from teak directly into maroon without an intervening period in blood and custard. Private owner liveries on wagons likewise survived until they fell apart, but as none of them got painted after 1939 they were progressively shabbier and dirtier and not at all like the colourful things produced by messrs Hornby and Bachmann. I presume the same was true in the south and the west

[chrisf]

One Gresley that went straight from teak to maroon was corridor second SC12972E - in December 1961!

 

On the Western, chocolate and cream could still be seen well into the fifties, especially on local services. In "Steam in England", Rodney Lissenden's compendium of colour photos by the late R C Riley, there is a shot of an auto train being propelled off the Royal Albert Bridge in 1955. One of the trailers is in chocolate and cream. Note that the WR had to be told in 1952 to stop painting these vehicles in crimson and cream as, in case they hadn't noticed, such vehicles were not main line stock!

 

I'm told, though others on here know far better than I, that some Southern coaching stock was revarnished as opposed to being repainted and thus kept SR livery until green was reintroduced circa 1956.

 

Chris

[DavidB-AU]

Two Patriots were painted apple green in 1948.

 

Cheers

David

[Il Grifone]

 

Il Grifone: Interesting you say that, I tended to think the cycle and lion bage cropped up around mid-1950.

 

 

The only reference I can find is to the use of "an emblem" with the lettering 'British Railways' at about this time. The lion was certainly in use a year later. I have found photos of the first 15xx and 16xx tanks so adorned and a reference to the Turbomotive with it - in black! There is also a letter enquiring why passenger locos are leaving Crewe in black rather than green or blue. (Trains Illustrated 9/10 1949.) Paint (and everything else) was in short supply at the time, so repainting would only have been done if necessary with top link locos and stock getting priority.

 

Wagon colours were finalised about the same time (late 1949 - lower priority) and were basically: grey unfitted & bauxite fitted/piped. Wood not to be painted. Black underframe. Solebars and headstocks body colour if wood, u/f colour if steel. Some vans were crimson and insulated vans were white.

[45157]

I wouldn't mind doing the City/Duchess that was on the Southern Reagion during the exchanges with the BR numbering but WD tender in LMS black!!!

 

 

 

I think it might have been an LMS "Self Weighing" Tender to accurately measure coal consumption, not an ex WD one, they do have a similar look about them.

 

Regarding Black Fives, the name says it all, they were only ever black in service, lining (or not) and lettering being the only colour variations.

I believe one was painted light green with full lining and displayed for consideration during the 1948 livery trials, but as far as I am aware, never actually ran in revenue earning service wearing this livery.

 

If prototypical accuracy matters, always, but always, paint and line a model to a photograph from your chosen period as variations were numerous, to say the least, especially in more "rural" locations.

 

regards

Stewart

[Sylvian Tennant]

Thanks David... I'm guessing the wood would have also applied to brake vans though I can see why I no pre-national liveries would have escaped the rebradning so ealry into the shake up

 

45157: I know what you are on about but no they were actually WD tenders though I can see that they did look incredbily similer. On that subject I wouldn't mind doing a Black 5 (again back onto them ) with one of those tenders but for the moment I'm going to keep to what I can relaistic do for the moment thanks though

 

As for the liveries cheers, the photograph I am basing it on has the engine in question, 45242 I think, a little weathered so it's hard to be able to see any lining especially as it's B/W too. Yes if you look online you might come across a 5inch gauge model of one in the light green livery. If I'm not mistaken there were a couple painted but the directors didn't approve!

 

Thank for the help though

 

 

 

[asmay2002]

I think it might have been an LMS "Self Weighing" Tender to accurately measure coal consumption, not an ex WD one, they do have a similar look about them.

 

City of Bradford ran on the SR in 1948 with an Austerity tender lettererd "LMS" it was NOT an LMS self weighing tender. The problem was that the SR had no water troughs.

 

Regarding Black Fives, the name says it all, they were only ever black in service, lining (or not) and lettering being the only colour variations.

I believe one was painted light green with full lining and displayed for consideration during the 1948 livery trials, but as far as I am aware, never actually ran in revenue earning service wearing this livery.

If prototypical accuracy matters, always, but always, paint and line a model to a photograph from your chosen period as variations were numerous, to say the least, especially in more "rural" locations.

 

In the 1948 livery trials M4762 was painted SR malachite, M4763 was painted LNER apple green and M4764 was painted GWR green. After the parade the locos were returned to Crewe for the lining to be completed on the Right hand sides and they then entered service. They became black at the next repaint (dates unknown). (all from LMS locomtive profiles No 6. David Hunt et al).

[Tim Lewis]

There were certainly some Thompson coaches in plum and spilt milk. I also have a Colour Rail slide of a blue V2 with what looks like a plum and spilt milk Gresley coach (but it could be carmine and cream: bit difficult to tell).

[Il Grifone]

Checking my reference, which I should have done first , the unpainted wood was "wagons" which means unfitted opens/minerals, as a seperate entry states that all fitted vehicles and fitted and unfitted vans are to be painted.

 

I also found a mention of using up old stocks of paint! Reasonable for economy and shortages of new paint.

[45157]

City of Bradford ran on the SR in 1948 with an Austerity tender lettererd "LMS" it was NOT an LMS self weighing tender. The problem was that the SR had no water troughs.

 

In the 1948 livery trials M4762 was painted SR malachite, M4763 was painted LNER apple green and M4764 was painted GWR green. After the parade the locos were returned to Crewe for the lining to be completed on the Right hand sides and they then entered service. They became black at the next repaint (dates unknown). (all from LMS locomtive profiles No 6. David Hunt et al).

 

Always going to be a problem, quoting from vague memories while still at work (lunchtime of course) with no reference materials, I consider myself corrected.

 

That the three Black Fives ran in green until their next repaint in revenue earning service is very interesting.

I must delve deeply into what reference material I have regarding shed allocations for the three locos, as I imagine they would have been a popular choice for the camera.

 

regards

Stewart

[asmay2002]

Always going to be a problem, quoting from vague memories while still at work (lunchtime of course) with no reference materials, I consider myself corrected.

 

That the three Black Fives ran in green until their next repaint in revenue earning service is very interesting.

I must delve deeply into what reference material I have regarding shed allocations for the three locos, as I imagine they would have been a popular choice for the camera.

 

regards

Stewart

 

Steam shed database on the 'net suggests that they were all Crewe North engines at that period.

[45157]

Steam shed database on the 'net suggests that they were all Crewe North engines at that period.

 

Thank you for the information, I looked up my 1948 Ian Allan and can confirm Crewe North.

I am now trying to find a photograph.

(apologies for the thread hijack)

 

regards

Stewart