Very early BR liveries

[Sylvian Tennant]

Thank you for these very interesting references

 

Il Grfone: That cleared everything up to exactly what I wanted to know

 

asmay: were they lined in respect of their liveries? or just grey and red?

 

Tim: I didn't realise that there was any blue V2s? but I'll sift aroiund on the coach liveries cheers for the heads up on the Thompsons though

 

45157: don't worry, this thread is totally to help not just myself but others with similer questions

[asmay2002]

 

asmay: were they lined in respect of their liveries? or just grey and red?

 

 

The same source that I quoted earlier says that the malachite engine was lined yellow and black, the LNER green engine was lined black and white and the GWR green engine was lined orange and black. M5292 which was the one that Riddles had prepared in LNWR style had more lining on the boiler than the later BR standard version and also an LNWR style black border around the buffer beam. There is a picture of this engine in "The big four in colour 1935-1950" along with many other colour photos of engines in the transitional liveries. The numbers on these Black 5's were white 12" LMS 1946 pattern numbers except on the SR liveried engine where they were yellow and 9". The three engines with the white numbers had "BRITISH RAILWAYS" in white but agian the SR liveried one had them in yellow. 44762 was still in malachite in Nov 1952.

 

Hope this helps

 

Andy May

[coachmann]

Many years ago I had a good chat with a well-known author and publisher while he was at my home over why so many 'express' locos appeared in LNWR lined black after nationalization. It was known that Riddles wanted this livery to be adopted but that some in BR wanted something more colourfull for the express locos. While BR was making up its mind, Crewe, it seems, were having a field day turning out Jubilees, Scots and Pacifics in LNWR lined black with full British Railways on the tenders (later known as....mixed traffic livery).

[10000]

Early years were a very mixed up period.

 

Different works did different things ie 'British Railways' yellow lined red , straw coloured and even white.

 

I have ' British Railways Locomotives 1948'. Photos are black and white but most are dated some with a description of the livery i.e. 45561 in lined black livery in June 1948, another photo is 58092 sometime after August 1949 ( when it was given that number on the side of the tank) no 'British Railways' or emblem

 

So as someone else said you do need to do a lot of research yourself in order to get all the info you are after.

[Sylvian Tennant]

Cheers guys, I bought it yesterday at Hartlepool and it's an interesting read, I'm going to delve further though, with the Black 5 though since I'm in three minds as to their liveries in photos: ie. Lined Black, lined black but heavily weathered or plain black (due to the post war constraints!)

 

However I'm more or less fully done in my research with the Ivatt... only one question about them if anybody knows. Was Ivatt 4MT numbered "M3000" before becoming "43000"?

 

From what I've read & seen of other Mucky Ducks in those days, this may be the case but I have found no photo evidence to prove it.

 

Cheers

[coachmann]

Putting a regional prifix such as 'M' in front of the loco's running number was an interim move (except ex GW locos) but was by no means applied to every single loco. To be accurate, you need a photo of the loco you are choosing to model. It was more likely the prefix was applied to locos being built or shopped in early 1948.

[DaveF]

Sorry I don't know about 43000/M3000 but here is M3003 at Cambridge around 1948. Photo taken by my father, not me!

 

 

 

Cambridge South M3003 Ivatt 2-6-0 Cambridge to Bletchley c1948

 

 

Hope it is some use, even if only for how the numberplate was done.

 

David

[Sylvian Tennant]

Cheers Dave but are we allowed to put other's pictures up on public threads? Or is it public domain stuff now?

 

However, that's a really good shot of what I'm looking for... I think I might leave M3000 and do M3003 instead

 

 

[DaveF]

Cheers Dave but are we allowed to put other's pictures up on public threads? Or is it public domain stuff now?

 

However, that's a really good shot of what I'm looking for... I think I might leave M3000 and do M3003 instead

 

 

 

He left all his photos to me on his death, so I now hold the copyright. As I've not (yet) put it on fotopic it has not got my copyright marking on it.

 

David

[Invicta]

Cheers Dave but are we allowed to put other's pictures up on public threads? Or is it public domain stuff now?

 

However, that's a really good shot of what I'm looking for... I think I might leave M3000 and do M3003 instead

 

 

 

Another candidate would be M3005, illustrated in the Casserley 'Locomotives of British Railways' book that was mentioned a few posts back. The book also has a shot of Black 5 M4763 in experimental Apple Green as mentioned earlier.

 

A quick scan through the ex-LMS section of the Casserley book brings up all kinds of interesting examples of early BR liveries- plenty of the 'Mxxxx' style of renumbering, locos in pre-nationalisation livery with BR renumbering, and at least a couple of locos carrying 'British Railways' lettering on the tender, but not renumbered ('Crab' 2910 and 8F 8310)

 

 

Another interesting find is 8F M8602, shown coupled to a WD 8-wheel tender; the caption suggesting that this was for use on the Southern Region the exchange trials in 1948. The tender has 'British Railways' lettering, rather than the 'LMS' seen on the WD tenders paired with Pacifics and Scots for the trials.

Incidentally, the cabside numbering on this one has the 'M' below the number (so '8602M') rather than above the number- I think this might be the first pic I've seen of a loco renumbered in this manner- certainly all of the other examples of Mxxxx numbering in the book have the 'M' above the number

[Sylvian Tennant]

Ah okay, I'll keep an eye of for this book too, could be interesting to read through... at the moment I'm not really having much look with a decent picture of a Black 5 showing a decent example of being either line dor unlined! But rummaging through my clubs "Britsh Railways Illustrated" to find one!

 

I wouldn't mind see that 8F with the WD tender either I'll take a look to see if any 8F were used (I'm sure they were) in the 1948 exchanges! be an interesting modelling project and slightly unusual too

 

As for the Letter after the number (and apologies on correcting coachman here!) I do have a picture in the British Raiwlays Livieries book of a GWR loco (I can't remember what exactly...possible a Castle) with a Hawkworth tender GWR livery with "BRITSH WAILWAYS" on the side... only below the number plate of a small "W".

[The Johnster]

As regards unusual liveries, several locos carried BR Express Blue. There are two variations though, one which is closer to Caledonian Railways blue, and a darker version. Off the top of my head, it was carried by a few A3s, A4s and the de-streamlined Coronations. There was also the experimental purple livery, which was used on a couple of A4s.

 

Edit: This site should help you a lot with details of the A3s and A4s.

 

Blue also applied to Merchant Navies and GWR Kings.  I believe the darker blue was based on the GER colour, though the lining was different.

As regards unusual liveries, several locos carried BR Express Blue. There are two variations though, one which is closer to Caledonian Railways blue, and a darker version. Off the top of my head, it was carried by a few A3s, A4s and the de-streamlined Coronations. There was also the experimental purple livery, which was used on a couple of A4s.

 

Edit: This site should help you a lot with details of the A3s and A4s.

 

Blue also applied to Merchant Navies and GWR Kings.  I believe the darker blue was based on the GER colour, though the lining was different.

[Nearholmer]

If you get into the fine-grain of this, it is b complicated, because some locos were painted for exhibition to Directors, during the choosing process, and more than one such exhibition was held ......., a pal of mine has diligently collated all the detail, and I keep pestering him to write it up for Backtrack.

 

My favourite oddity from this process is a SR 'Hornby' electric, painted ultramarine blue; there is a (B&W) photo of it in trafffic on semgonline, iirc.

 

And, the point made above about some BR(s) hauled stock always being green is correct. Bullied stock was being built, and turned out in green, until c1952, and many remained green until scrapped. The shade possibly changed (endless debate will now ensue), but not much. EMUs, of course, were green until the late 1960s.

 

Kevin

[The Johnster]

I've found some info in the June 1948 issue of the Railway Observer which sheds some light on this question:-

 

" ... details are now available concerning the experimental painting of rolling stock. The locomotives will be:-

 

Most powerful passenger: blue with red, cream and grey lining

 

Other express passenger: green, with similar lining

 

Mixed traffic: black, with similar lining

 

Freight: black, unlined

 

The coaching stock will be:-

 

Main Line corridor trains: (a) plum and spilt milk lined with bands of yellow - maroon - yellow separated by lines of spilt milk. ( chocolate and cream lined with black and golden yellow

 

Local suburban steam trains: maroon lined with golden yellow - black - golden yellow

 

Multiple-unit electric stock: green

 

There followed a long list of trains [excluding the suburbans, of course] on which sets in these colour schemes might be seen, spread across all regions. The public were invited to vote, though as always how much notice was taken of the response was anybody's guess. From a later RO it appears that the Western had one set in each main line livery for the Cornish Riviera - not the then latest Hawksworths, please note, but the 1938-40 vintage Colletts. It is probably too much to expect that anyone thought to record the numbers of the coaches, though as one RCTS member based in the West Country had an obsession with dining cars and told RO readers all about them (whether or not they wanted to know) we might be pleasantly surprised. If I come across any more details I will post again. The locos which bore strange paintwork were, of course, very well recorded!

 

The "maroon" to be used for suburban stock was emphatically NOT crimson: that was introduced in 1949. The description used widely by RCTS members was "wine red". It lingered on after the new colour was introduced because Swindon had so much maroon paint to use up and stock was still carrying it well into the 1950s. Oh for a colour slide of this little-known livery!

 

Chris

 

Would this maroon 'wine red' livery be the odd purplish colour Airfix turned their A30 auto and 'B' sets out unlined in?  It was quite unlike 1949-56 crimson, and not much like post 1956-58 unlined maroon either.

[Il Grifone]

This 'maroon' for non-corridor coaches would account for the fact that I cannot recall any coaches in all over crimson* (i.e. the 'corridor' colour which was a bright red (hence the erroneous desciption of 'carmine'). Hornby Dublo D13 suburban coaches (introduced in 1954) are maroon colour.

 

*I lived next to the Avonmouth branch in Bristol at the time.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dublo+d13&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjM48Cl0pzRAhWbNVAKHdgLD_sQ_AUICSgC&biw=1303&bih=671

[6959]

Faendre Hall 5954 was in August 1948 the first ex-GWR loco to be painted in lined black with lion on wheel emblem.

 

I will post a picture when I can work out how to do it from ipad.