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Announcement: Bristol Model Railway Exhibition


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2 hours ago, ikcdab said:

I guess I have mixed feelings about this. People are saying that the exhibition needs reinvigoration, but I was very happy the last time in went in 2019.  I have a concern that Warner's would only take it on of they felt there was a profit to be made for their business, so I guess that means higher extrance fees and more traders, therefore less layouts. I have no idea why the railway club have involved Warner's, but I guess it's because they can no longer get the volunteers to organise it themselves.

I hope it continues as good as before and I will go in 2022, it just leaves me unsettled when one organisation is running several of our big exhibitions.. Eggs in baskets comes to mind.

 

 

The show has input from a number of clubs. As far as I am aware, it's not organised by one club in isolation. The club I was part of used to provide members to assist in the running of the show. 

 

In respect of your observations regarding the content, as you allude to, you're simply guessing.

 

Incidentally, I would rather have less layouts of an overall decent quality (subjective of course ) than 'aisle fillers'. Of course there needs to be profit. I would venture that to not expect this to be the case is naive but if this is in exchange for the updating of the show, that seems to be a good deal all round. 

 

Rather than pre-judging how the involvement of Warners will affect the show, shall we just wait and see what happens ? 

 

I am not seeing the end of the world as we know it or am I missing something ? 

 

Rob. 

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The world of model railway exhibitions has been evolving and changing ever since I first got involved in the late 1970s.

 

The first shows I was involved with were run by the club in a small local hall. There were maybe 8 or so layouts with the vast majority being either club layouts or built and owned by club members. The catering was done by the families of the club members. Trade was a couple of stands put on by local model railway shops. We usually had one or two visiting layouts and we had a reciprocal arrangement with another club that we would send a layout to their show and they would send one to ours. No expenses were claimed or requested and the visitors were put up in spare rooms at the houses of members. Layouts were moved around in an open flat bed lorry that one of the members used for his business and we borrowed scaffolding type barriers from another club.

 

It cost very little to put on apart from the hire costs of the hall and made a good contribution to the club finances.

 

They were actually great fun and I still look back to those days with great affection.

 

Nowadays most of those ways of doing things have gone by the wayside and many shows require substantial financial risk and outlay. The turnover has gone from perhaps hundreds of pounds to tens of thousands of pounds. They also require volunteers who are willing to give up huge chunks of their spare time to organise them and there are all sorts of rules and regulations that need to be complied with that back in the day either didn't exist or were never enforced.

 

So I can see the benefits of having professional exhibition organisers on board at the larger shows.

 

It is very easy to be critical of those who take on such things but I would rather have a show run on a sound commercial basis by Warners or suchlike than no show at all. Which is what we had in Doncaster for a while.

 

We can all decide whether we want to attend such a show on ethical grounds, or we can look at the lists of layouts and traders and decide if we like what will be on show before we go. Nobody is forced to attend!   

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1 hour ago, NHY 581 said:

 

 

The show has input from a number of clubs. As far as I am aware, it's not organised by one club in isolation. The club I was part of used to provide members to assist in the running of the show. 

 

In respect of your observations regarding the content, as you allude to, you're simply guessing.

 

Incidentally, I would rather have less layouts of an overall decent quality (subjective of course ) than 'aisle fillers'. Of course there needs to be profit. I would venture that to not expect this to be the case is naive but if this is in exchange for the updating of the show, that seems to be a good deal all round. 

 

Rather than pre-judging how the involvement of Warners will affect the show, shall we just wait and see what happens ? 

 

I am not seeing the end of the world as we know it or am I missing something ? 

 

Rob. 

Well I'm not seeing the end of the world either, I'm said it left me feeling unsettled. My final point was the pertinent one, eggs all in one basket. 

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1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

The world of model railway exhibitions has been evolving and changing ever since I first got involved in the late 1970s.

 

The first shows I was involved with were run by the club in a small local hall. There were maybe 8 or so layouts with the vast majority being either club layouts or built and owned by club members. The catering was done by the families of the club members. Trade was a couple of stands put on by local model railway shops. We usually had one or two visiting layouts and we had a reciprocal arrangement with another club that we would send a layout to their show and they would send one to ours. No expenses were claimed or requested and the visitors were put up in spare rooms at the houses of members. Layouts were moved around in an open flat bed lorry that one of the members used for his business and we borrowed scaffolding type barriers from another club.

 

It cost very little to put on apart from the hire costs of the hall and made a good contribution to the club finances.

 

They were actually great fun and I still look back to those days with great affection.

 

Nowadays most of those ways of doing things have gone by the wayside and many shows require substantial financial risk and outlay. The turnover has gone from perhaps hundreds of pounds to tens of thousands of pounds. They also require volunteers who are willing to give up huge chunks of their spare time to organise them and there are all sorts of rules and regulations that need to be complied with that back in the day either didn't exist or were never enforced.

 

So I can see the benefits of having professional exhibition organisers on board at the larger shows.

 

It is very easy to be critical of those who take on such things but I would rather have a show run on a sound commercial basis by Warners or suchlike than no show at all. Which is what we had in Doncaster for a while.

 

We can all decide whether we want to attend such a show on ethical grounds, or we can look at the lists of layouts and traders and decide if we like what will be on show before we go. Nobody is forced to attend!   

 

 

Spot on. 

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26 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

The world of model railway exhibitions has been evolving and changing ever since I first got involved in the late 1970s.

 

The first shows I was involved with were run by the club in a small local hall. There were maybe 8 or so layouts with the vast majority being either club layouts or built and owned by club members. The catering was done by the families of the club members. Trade was a couple of stands put on by local model railway shops. We usually had one or two visiting layouts and we had a reciprocal arrangement with another club that we would send a layout to their show and they would send one to ours. No expenses were claimed or requested and the visitors were put up in spare rooms at the houses of members. Layouts were moved around in an open flat bed lorry that one of the members used for his business and we borrowed scaffolding type barriers from another club.

 

It cost very little to put on apart from the hire costs of the hall and made a good contribution to the club finances.

 

They were actually great fun and I still look back to those days with great affection.

 

Nowadays most of those ways of doing things have gone by the wayside and many shows require substantial financial risk and outlay. The turnover has gone from perhaps hundreds of pounds to tens of thousands of pounds. They also require volunteers who are willing to give up huge chunks of their spare time to organise them and there are all sorts of rules and regulations that need to be complied with that back in the day either didn't exist or were never enforced.

 

So I can see the benefits of having professional exhibition organisers on board at the larger shows.

 

It is very easy to be critical of those who take on such things but I would rather have a show run on a sound commercial basis by Warners or suchlike than no show at all. Which is what we had in Doncaster for a while.

 

We can all decide whether we want to attend such a show on ethical grounds, or we can look at the lists of layouts and traders and decide if we like what will be on show before we go. Nobody is forced to attend!   

Very good post and one that matches my experience. I have exhibited at a Warners show (Peterborough) and was well looked after, put up in good accommodation, good food and the shows was well organised.  A show of that size would represent a significant commercial risk to a club as one bad year/event would potentially wipe out all the reserves. I knew the show was contributing to a commercial entity but at the end of day I got paid my travel expenses and I had a good time.

 

Smaller shows lend themselves to local clubs where the profit margin is better even if the overall level of profit is significantly less. I have mostly been well looked after, had all my expenses paid etc good food so the enjoyment was no less than a commercial show.

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7 hours ago, t-b-g said:

small local hall.

There were maybe 8 or so layouts with the vast majority being either club layouts or built and owned by club members. The catering was done by the families of the club members.

 

They were actually great fun and I still look back to those days with great affection.

That pretty much describes the way the RMWeb Members Days at Taunton started and continue to be run, albeit now under 'new management'. Long may it continue.

 

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The Bristol show cost a lot of money as a result of having to be cancelled in 2020 and the deal with Warners was a way of ensuring that the Bristol show at Thornbury would continue.

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On 03/01/2022 at 09:54, Camperdown said:

No argument there.  And with a 10,000 ft runway, Filton could handle anything.  Lulsgate does have one advantage however; as Wikipedia puts it: "Being high, at 600 ft (180 m), the site had a poor weather record during warm front conditions, when it was often covered in low cloud.  However, when this occurred the alternative airfields at Filton and Cardiff were usually clear and operational; and as Lulsgate was clear when the low-lying airfields were obscured by radiation fog in calm weather, the landing ground provided a useful alternative."

Filton was not a good location for an airport, which was why it closed. As a manufacturing site it was adequate, however many practical and operational factors made it less than ideal for that purpose. Those would have been magnified for an airport so no development was pretty much guaranteed.

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36 minutes ago, Claire RJ said:

What was "Non-public domain info removed"  Please explain, as I do not remember anything  that I sent other than the message.

 

It was the reference to another event that's not public information.

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22 minutes ago, PMP said:

Filton was not a good location for an airport, which was why it closed. As a manufacturing site it was adequate, however many practical and operational factors made it less than ideal for that purpose. Those would have been magnified for an airport so no development was pretty much guaranteed.

 

Including a railway running through it!  (Pic: July84.  The A300-600 is F-WZLR)

 

rev 47094 Filton July84 with F-WZLR.jpg

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Last time I was at Bristol Show it was down at the waterfront 1978?

and I have flown from Filton... In a Chipmonk, overtaking Concorde at the time..

Not that this matters with the subject.

 

Getting a club show organised  is getting more difficult, we've lost 4 club shows in our area, including our own. Though our loss is due to the hall not being used for exhibitions anymore.

Schools have become almost impossible to hire, as they have put the prices up so much. 

 

I think the days of Big shows being run by clubs are slowly coming to the end, village hall shows Ok but big ones are getting too complicated, expensive and risky for for little MRCs to run, so I welcome the take over of The Bristol Show.

 

For our own club it's looking like one or two village hall shows each year to try to make up the lost income. Also what happens to our hobby if it is reduced to half a dozen huge business run shows a year? For many of us exhibiting and visiting shows are a major part of the hobby just as much as building our own railways..

 

Will I attend Brizzle again? maybe when I've retired, it being a 4.5 hour journey to get there now, (instead of under an hour) it's a 2 day trip minimum..

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I'd have to agree with the sentiments there about big shows run by clubs, but at the same time that trend was already underway, Nottingham and Hull to name but two major events that disappeared before COVID could do its worst. What it happening is something of a resurgence of the "village hall" arrangements that TBG refers to above, and all of the shows I've been to in the post-covid era have been such, and both the shows mentioned above have successfully downsized to less extravagant and more informal events its pleasing to report.

 

The debate around whether commercial enterprises should be running shows has rumbled for many a year and as mentioned previously, if you don't like the idea then there's no three line whip which says you have to go so you can stay at home. One thing that should be remembered though is the business model for these shows is based on a sizeable element of goodwill in order to make them viable, and ultimately to contribute to the profitability of the organisation that runs it. If the show didn't have that and had to be run along strictly commercial lines, expenses for layouts would be horrendous, travel would be paid on the basis of 45p a mile, per vehicle, and operators (and all other staff for that matter) would attract payment of at least minimum wage (there could be a lot of exhibition layouts by junior modellers suddenly appear, though they'd have to be 17 and in possession of a full driving licence, 'can't afford a driver!). I'm not suggesting that's the view that exhibitors should take, far from it, but lets not forget the sizeable contribution that those exhibitors and volunteer staff make, if they're willing to do it then they deserve the support of the show going public because without it, in the current climate we wouldn't have big shows simply because the cost would be too high for commercial ventures and the risk too great for non-commercial ones. 

 

The character of many shows however is defined by the organisers, in many cases the clubs themselves and though not strictly a club show, York, a show wholly independent of outside influence albeit backed by a number of commercial concerns, has maintained a high standard and a very distinct character, and remains the (IMHO) the premier show of the year. This in my mind is still very much a show where "the dog wags the tail". Commercial shows do tend towards a greater proportion of trade (commercial reality perhaps) but not always adding any real value to the show itself (other than monetary contribution) but with that comes a danger that "the tail wags the dog" and you end up with a trade show where maximising return overtakes the primary reason for holding a model railway exhibition. That might work for a short term but its not a long term strategy.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, RANGERS said:

I'd have to agree with the sentiments there about big shows run by clubs, but at the same time that trend was already underway, Nottingham and Hull to name but two major events that disappeared before COVID could do its worst. What it happening is something of a resurgence of the "village hall" arrangements that TBG refers to above, and all of the shows I've been to in the post-covid era have been such, and both the shows mentioned above have successfully downsized to less extravagant and more informal events its pleasing to report.

 

The debate around whether commercial enterprises should be running shows has rumbled for many a year and as mentioned previously, if you don't like the idea then there's no three line whip which says you have to go so you can stay at home. One thing that should be remembered though is the business model for these shows is based on a sizeable element of goodwill in order to make them viable, and ultimately to contribute to the profitability of the organisation that runs it. If the show didn't have that and had to be run along strictly commercial lines, expenses for layouts would be horrendous, travel would be paid on the basis of 45p a mile, per vehicle, and operators (and all other staff for that matter) would attract payment of at least minimum wage (there could be a lot of exhibition layouts by junior modellers suddenly appear, though they'd have to be 17 and in possession of a full driving licence, 'can't afford a driver!). I'm not suggesting that's the view that exhibitors should take, far from it, but lets not forget the sizeable contribution that those exhibitors and volunteer staff make, if they're willing to do it then they deserve the support of the show going public because without it, in the current climate we wouldn't have big shows simply because the cost would be too high for commercial ventures and the risk too great for non-commercial ones. 

 

The character of many shows however is defined by the organisers, in many cases the clubs themselves and though not strictly a club show, York, a show wholly independent of outside influence albeit backed by a number of commercial concerns, has maintained a high standard and a very distinct character, and remains the (IMHO) the premier show of the year. This in my mind is still very much a show where "the dog wags the tail". Commercial shows do tend towards a greater proportion of trade (commercial reality perhaps) but not always adding any real value to the show itself (other than monetary contribution) but with that comes a danger that "the tail wags the dog" and you end up with a trade show where maximising return overtakes the primary reason for holding a model railway exhibition. That might work for a short term but its not a long term strategy.

 

 

 

I used to think along similar lines but my views have changed over the years. I think that much of it comes down to why we build exhibition layouts and why we take them to shows. I treat them very much as a social event. A weekend away with one or more friends, meeting other people and hopefully putting on a good show. There is not much more pleasing in the hobby when people come up to your layout, watch it for a while and then show their appreciation with a few kind words. Then there is the opportunity to spend a couple of days at a show, browse the trade stands, get to see other layouts and pick the brains of the people who have built them.

 

The experience of exhibiting is no different to me, whether it be a club show or a commercial one.

 

I don't think there is any exhibition that would be viable if the exhibitors charged for their time. I don't expect to be out of pocket and as long as I am looked after in terms of accomodation and food and travelling costs, I am happy. I get a free weekend away with my mates, often in a nice hotel paid for by others. I don't see exhibiting as an opportunity to earn a few quid.

 

The organisers, whether it be a club or a business, put all the money up front and take all the risk, so why shouldn't they reap the reward if a show is successful. Sometimes that does lead to a different sort of show, with the stand allocation weighted in favour of traders. If people don't like that, then they simply don't go.

 

My only concern would be if a commercial organisation "muscled in" on a town or city where a club had been running a show. Trying to take revenue off a club by competing against them would change things considerably. A show in an area where there either isn't one, or where the club has suggested or requested commercial involvement, I have no problem with at all. 

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Agree with you Tony.

 

I took my layout to three Warners shows, not the usual show to take my layout (Clutton) to, but all were good in their own way. Perhaps Ally Pally stands out, we were in the 'scale' hall.

 

Taking the layout away for the weekend with some mates, a curry on the Saturday night and a few beers was always enjoyable. I never charged to take the layout to any show, but I did expect the van hire and accommodation to be covered. I think some exhibitors must charge - or maybe exaggerate their expenses, else how on earth do they go to shows week in and out?

 

As for the Bristol show, I haven't been for some years, although I live nearby. The quality of the layouts was disappointing, I went to one show at the Watershed, walked out after 20 minutes. The standard was much better at the Victoria Rooms. I was never asked to take my layout to Thornbury, had I been asked, I would have turned it down.

 

I remember the late Geoff Endecott saying that he couldn't understand why Thornbury could pull in a lot of visitors, while his show didn't get anywhere like those numbers.

 

Maybe Warners taking on the show will be a good thing.

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Its fair to say that little local shows can be nice little earners with a low up front investment and not too much work. Of two little shows I have been involved with one made £1,400 and the other in excess of £2k. Ok not big enough for some but nice little earners for the organisations they were supporting without risk and without an army of volunteers. Little shows can also throw up some gems of layouts but are generally light on the big trade exhibitors and also the specialist traders. I have to admit that I will often look at the list of trade exhibitors before deciding whether to visit a show or not. The Warners run shows do appear to have a higher than average ratio of trade stands to layouts, especially Doncaster. Based on my previous comment is this a bad thing? It should be noted that the ratio of trade stands to layouts at Doncaster is very similar to the ratio at Model Rail Scotland which is an association show. Specialist shows such as the ALSRM and GOG have a much higher ratio of trade to layouts than commercially run shows but they are all about supporting specialist traders. Looking back at a few large shows it does seem that most business run shows are just a bit more expensive in terms of the number of layouts per £1 admission price than similar sized club run shows. I would argue that is because the club run shows either don't charge enough or try to put too much in rather than business run shows charging too much. Although many won't accept this, model railway exhibitions are very cheap entertainment compared to football matches, theatre etc.

 

I must confess that while I still lament the reduction in purely club run exhibitions, the move towards business organised model railway exhibitions as opposed to no big exhibitions is a good thing. At the same time I do hope that most of the larger club exhibitions such as Stafford will be able to continue as proud club run shows.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tim V said:

I think some exhibitors must charge - or maybe exaggerate their expenses, else how on earth do they go to shows week in and out?

 

 

I would have expected the opposite - if exhibitors 'charge' more than the usual van hire, fuel, and accommodation, I would expect word to get around quite quickly that XYZ is expensive for what you get and their invitations would dry up rather than get more invites to go to more shows.

 

 

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

Specialist shows such as the ALSRM and GOG have a much higher ratio of trade to layouts than commercially run shows but they are all about supporting specialist traders.

 

A couple of the O Gauge 'Trade' Shows are just that - a hall full of traders with no layouts. This means that everyone exhibiting has paid to be there and the organisers have no expenses to pay apart from the costs of actually putting on the event - hall hire, advertising, staffing etc. An easy way to make a profit - it works for 7mm but would it work for 4mm OO ?

 

Imagine NEC, Ally Pally, Doncaster etc without any layouts . . . . . . . . 

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3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I think that much of it comes down to why we build exhibition layouts and why we take them to shows. I treat them very much as a social event. A weekend away with one or more friends, meeting other people and hopefully putting on a good show. There is not much more pleasing in the hobby when people come up to your layout, watch it for a while and then show their appreciation with a few kind words. Then there is the opportunity to spend a couple of days at a show, browse the trade stands, get to see other layouts and pick the brains of the people who have built them.

 

I can't put it any better than that.

Chris H

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4 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

 I think that much of it comes down to why we build exhibition layouts and why we take them to shows. I treat them very much as a social event. A weekend away with one or more friends, meeting other people and hopefully putting on a good show. There is not much more pleasing in the hobby when people come up to your layout, watch it for a while and then show their appreciation with a few kind words. Then there is the opportunity to spend a couple of days at a show, browse the trade stands, get to see other layouts and pick the brains of the people who have built them.

 

The experience of exhibiting is no different to me, whether it be a club show or a commercial one.

 

 

 

 

 

Once again, spot on. 

 

Rob. 

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5 hours ago, Mike Bellamy said:

 

I would have expected the opposite - if exhibitors 'charge' more than the usual van hire, fuel, and accommodation, I would expect word to get around quite quickly that XYZ is expensive for what you get and their invitations would dry up rather than get more invites to go to more shows.

 

 

 

A couple of the O Gauge 'Trade' Shows are just that - a hall full of traders with no layouts. This means that everyone exhibiting has paid to be there and the organisers have no expenses to pay apart from the costs of actually putting on the event - hall hire, advertising, staffing etc. An easy way to make a profit - it works for 7mm but would it work for 4mm OO ?

 

Imagine NEC, Ally Pally, Doncaster etc without any layouts . . . . . . . . 

.

I think it’s likely that a 4mm scale trade show would be viable. Obviously the GoG shows are advertised to members whom understand the concept. 
 

If a good venue with easy access was found, I imagine that with good marketing a purely ‘trade’ show might work. It could be attractive to retailers and manufacturers as people would be coming primarily to ‘buy’. I wouldn’t restrict it to one scale though, it’d make sense to make it open to all, so you in effect have a market that’s open for one day.

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On 04/01/2022 at 22:10, PMP said:

I think it’s likely that a 4mm scale trade show would be viable. Obviously the GoG shows are advertised to members whom understand the concept. 
 

If a good venue with easy access was found, I imagine that with good marketing a purely ‘trade’ show might work. It could be attractive to retailers and manufacturers as people would be coming primarily to ‘buy’. I wouldn’t restrict it to one scale though, it’d make sense to make it open to all, so you in effect have a market that’s open for one day.


I always see the specialist trade stands as an important part of the specialist NG shows that I attend - often it’s the only chance you get to buy stuff from small specialist suppliers without paying for postage. Whether it would have the same appeal in standard gauge 00 (where everything is a bit more mainstream) is a different question, although finescale 4mm might work well.

 

On that note, and without wanting to open a slightly different can of worms, is there scope for Warners to become similarly involved in the specialist NG show scene now that it is in charge of Narrow Gauge World as well (mods please move/edit if you think this bit is too off-topic for this thread)?

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The other shows of course are those organised by the "gauge" societies, Expo EM and Scalefour. Unlike the GOG shows they have a mix of layouts, exhibitors and trade. But the EMGS has been having difficulties with its northern show as the cost of venue hire has increased markedly. It is doubtful if Expo EM North would ever be a "money spinner" but it is run (when possible) to support the EM gauge community. Of the few shows I usually attend, Expo EM North and Scalefour North are two of the most important shows for me, and usually both very good.

The only big shows I usually attend are Stafford and Manchester. But at the other end of the scale is the Small Cardiff Show. Small, yes, but very friendly, I see many of the traders I would like to patronise etc (not Eileen's Emporium unfortunately). Well worth the three hour train trip and a long walk through Sophia Gardens. I hope that shows like that can continue.

Jonathan

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20 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

 But at the other end of the scale is the Small Cardiff Show. Small, yes, but very friendly, I see many of the traders I would like to patronise etc (not Eileen's Emporium unfortunately). Well worth the three hour train trip and a long walk through Sophia Gardens. I hope that shows like that can continue.

Jonathan

 

Morning Jonathan, 

 

Going off topic somewhat but the Small Cardiff Show is 'resting' this year. However, it is hoped that it will return in 2023. 

 

Rob. 

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I believe that this is really great news.

 

First attending the Bristol show back in the early 70s, then later (but still at the Victoria Rooms) representing "Whitemans Bookshop" with CK, I many years later had the pleasure of exhibiting at Thornbury with "Pomparles Siding", the G1 layout I built in response to the RMweb "Six square feet challenge".

 

I was hugely chuffed to win the Moorcroft cup for over Gauge O modelling with my "Toad", usually the late David Buckingham was awarded this pot for his lovely G scale creations. Here's a picture of W68740 in later life, a prototype which is shortly to be recreated by Rapido in 4mm scale. 

 

DSCN0052.jpg.05b1f73a7b39daab6f7a96fdfd1768fc.jpg

 

Over many years the Association Bristol show has given a huge amount of pleasure to very many people. For all the criticisms that have been levelled at it, and any vicissitudes that it has gone through, it has always retained a great "buzz". Not least, I think, because there is always a great contingent of modellers from South Wales present, who are both good modellers and good fun.

 

Warners taking it on is I think perfect, and I have already contacted Bev at Bourne to book space at the show for Wild Swan.

 

It strikes me that the combination of fresh impetus from Warners together with the date being early in what will be a forward looking post Covid environment should result in an absolutely stonking show!

 

Hopefully there will be an RMweb presence where we can all gather and argue over pointless details have a really good time saying hello to each other, and stuff.

 

And there's a bar...

 

I am really looking forward to what I am sure will be a "not to be missed" show! 

 

Simon

 

 

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