Ratio Bogie Bolster A kits

[Andy Keane]

I have three very old unused Ratio kits that are labled as GWR Bogie Bolster A for OO gauge. However they look nothing like the photo of the Bogie Bolster A in the History of GWR Wagons by Atkins and co. The kits look to have bogies as per the J11 Macaw B while the frames are much closer to the J2/3 Beaver D / Macaw G. Does anyone know anything about what these kits are trying to model? They date from the mid 1970s. Also does anyone know of any photos of the real Beaver D wagons as I think these are the most likely prototype for the kit.

thanks

Andy

Edited December 25, 2021 by Andy Keane

[Gordon A]

If my memory serves me correctly they were absorbed into the GWR from one of the Welsh railways. I think the diamond frame bogies may be incorrect. Wasn't there something about their history on the Ratio instructions?

 

Gordon A

[Prometheus]

Was it not  Taff Vale prototype?

 

Tony

[Miss Prism]

The Ratio kit is the ex-TVR with diamond-frame bogies. It was classed as a Macaw G, but no GWR diagram was issued. There are pics (plates 247 and 248) in the Bible. The kit is about 3mm too wide.

[Andy Keane]

Thanks. My kits don't have the diamond frame bogies and the frames measure 33 feet over headstocks. They have the bogies with the two circular holes in and noted as B/PL2 in the instructions with the kit (the instructions also picture the diamond frame bogies but I don't have that option). Also the wheels are plastic disk wheels with three holes in them. I suspect these bogies should have spoked wheels and since I would want to use metal wheels I will probably buy spoked metal wheels. When you say "The Bible" I must confess my ignorance as to which book you mean. I have the Great Western Way and the two volume set by Akins et al but don't immediately see suitable photos in either so I guess you must mean something else. Also in my kits there are no historical notes. But I guess we are all agreed they are not the Bogie Bolster A's in Atkins volume 2.

Finally might these ex TVR wagons have ever visited the wet country?

regards

Andy

Edited December 27, 2021 by Andy Keane

[Miss Prism]

'The Bible' is 'GWR Goods Wagons, by Atkins, Beard and Tourret'. (In effect it is the update of the previous two-volume version.)  One of the pictures shows an ex-TVR vehicle at Kingsbridge, so yes, they did get to the west country. I can't remember offhand what is shown in the previous two-volume set.

 

I do not know of another Macaw that is 33' over headstocks. The nearest is I think the Airfix J25 (which was a Macaw H).

 

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

'The Bible' is 'GWR Goods Wagons, by Atkins, Beard and Tourret'. (In effect it is the update of the previous two-volume version.)  One of the pictures shows an ex-TVR vehicle at Kingsbridge, so yes, they did get to the west country. I can't remember offhand what is shown in the previous two-volume set.

 

I do not know of another Macaw that is 33' over headstocks. The nearest is I think the Airfix J25 (which was a Macaw H).

 

Ah - that must be an extra photo in the single volume version not in my two volume set. And yes the ratio kit I have is close to the Macaw H in that it has the bogies that the H wagons have rather than the diamond version. But the kit is definitely slightly too short as the H was 35 feet according to my book, but then volume 1 says the TVR wagons were also 35 foot but points to the Beaver D as being 33 foot, though still coded as a Macaw G, soo perhaps the kit is actually the Beaver D? Another interesting point is Atkins says the Macaw G wagons (ex TVR and Beaver D) were 30 tons while the Macaw H was only 20 tons. The Ratio kit has four sets of underbracing so perhaps thats why.

Also do you know if it is possible to get diamond bogies at all - it seems unlikely that the ex TVR or Beaver D wagons would have had their bogies changed though I suppose its possible. Not sure many would notice however.

thanks for your help

Andy

Edited December 23, 2021 by Andy Keane

[Cwmtwrch]

Peco produce the former Ratio kits and sell the bogies separately. They also sell the former Parkside bogies separately.

[Andy Keane]

Given I have three kits and would never expect three such wagons to be at Helston I think I will sacrifice one to make the other two slightly longer to conform to the J30 drawing for Macaw H. These were much more common anyway and had the plate bogies I have in my kits. From what I can see from the drawings these were pretty similar design wagons anyway.

[watfordtmc]

The kit is definitely meant to represent the Macaws G, as it has the post and rod trussing and lever hand brake that the ex TVR wagons were built with, along with their diamond frame bogies.  It certainly does not represent the Beaver D.

 

Macaws H had a set of angle iron (bulb angle) trussing each side, and were fitted with the DC brake, plus the modern pattern of plate bogie and self-contained buffers.

 

I have a suspicion (no more than that) that the shortfall in length might have something to do with Ratio’s production capacity at the time.  The kit has been going a long time, since the early 1970’s at least and possibly the late 1960’s, and Ratio may not have been able to mould a full length wagon.  A near miss though.

 

Looking at the illustration on the Peco website, it seems the kit is now supplied with diamond frame bogies – which would be correct – but I seem to recall (from a long time ago though!) that mine came with GW plate frame bogies.

 

Reference

GWR Goods Wagons, Atkins A, Beard W, Tourret R, Oxford Publishing Co (Hersham) 2013.

 

I also studied the images concerned in J H Russell’s first wagon book where they are reproduced to a larger size and rather more sharply.

 

Regards

TMc

24/12/2021

 

[Andy Keane]

Thanks for this update - most helpful. Do you think it possible that its a typo in the table in Atkins where it says the length should be 35 feet and that 33 feet is correct?

Also all the photos I have seen of similar vintage wagons suggest spoked wheels rather than plate wheels with three circular holes that I have in my kit.

I can of course get the diamond frame bogies but it seems to me that plate bogies are also possible if any of the wagons were re-bogied - my instructuions refer to both though the kits only have the plate version - what do you think?

I want mine to be as per 1930-32 vintage.

regards

Andy

Edited December 27, 2021 by Andy Keane

[Steamport Southport]

I think you get both types of bogie now. I'm pretty sure I did. Plate and Diamond types. That was about eight years ago.

 

Mine was built as a temporary runner for a Dapol crane with the bolsters omitted. Eventually it'll be finished and painted into GWR livery.

 

 

 

Jason

[cctransuk]

14 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I think you get both types of bogie now. I'm pretty sure I did. Plate and Diamond types. That was about eight years ago.

 

Mine was built as a temporary runner for a Dapol crane with the bolsters omitted. Eventually it'll be finished and painted into GWR livery.

 

 

 

Jason

 

A correct runner for a (corrected) Airfix / Dapol Booth Rodley crane can be easily built from a Mainline / Bachmann bogie bolster.

 

Unfortunately, to build a correct version of the BR Booth Rodley crane, you need an eight-wheeled rigid chassis; a longer jib, and a modified cab.

 

CJI.

[cctransuk]

14 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I think you get both types of bogie now. I'm pretty sure I did. Plate and Diamond types. That was about eight years ago.

 

Mine was built as a temporary runner for a Dapol crane with the bolsters omitted. Eventually it'll be finished and painted into GWR livery.

 

 

 

Jason

 

A correct runner for a (corrected) Airfix / Dapol Booth Rodley crane can be easily built from a Mainline / Bachmann bogie bolster.

 

Unfortunately, to build a correct version of the BR Booth Rodley crane, you need an eight-wheeled rigid chassis; a longer jib, and a modified cab.

 

CJI.

[Grovenor]

When these kits were first introduced Ratio did supply GW pattern plate bogies with the Macaw. The kit for the Caledonian bogie wagon produced at the same time had diamond frame bogies that were correct for the Macaw. I think it was several years before the bogies were offered seperately.

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

A correct runner for a (corrected) Airfix / Dapol Booth Rodley crane can be easily built from a Mainline / Bachmann bogie bolster.

 

Unfortunately, to build a correct version of the BR Booth Rodley crane, you need an eight-wheeled rigid chassis; a longer jib, and a modified cab.

 

CJI.

 

All done. It was a copy of an article in one of the magazines. ISTR I used a cannibalised LNER tender chassis.

 

I just didn't have anything for a runner at the time. So I bought a cheap kit instead with the idea of replacing it when I get something more suitable. It's virtually just the kit with the bolsters omitted and painted black.

 

TBH I don't really have a need for cranes. It was just a project following a magazine article as a bit of fun.

 

 

Jason

[Andy Keane]

Given what everyone has chipped in, I want to run the Macaw G ex TVR version as used in 1930/32 so is the consensus I should fit diamond bogies? Also my two volume version of Atkinson does not give wagon numbers for these adopted wagons. Could people advise on these please? Finally do people know what lettering was used? Presumably 30T, Macaw G, wagon number, then the big G W then some suitable tare  value and perhaps a Not Common Working plaque? If anyone could post a photo or simply send it in a message that would really help

thanks

Andy

Edited December 27, 2021 by Andy Keane

[BMS]

Taff Vale official drawings, Diagram 22, for the 30Ton Timber wagon (later Macaw G) show body length of 35ft and width of 7ft 4in.

Hope this helps?,

[Andy Keane]

7 minutes ago, BMS said:

Taff Vale official drawings, Diagram 22, for the 30Ton Timber wagon (later Macaw G) show body length of 35ft and width of 7ft 4in.

Hope this helps?,

That at least confirms Atkins as being correct on length and the Ratio kit as being two foot too short.

Does it give details on bogie types?

[BMS]

Whoops I missed that issue.

Both Diagram 20 and the "GA" shows diamond frame bogies

AND

In TVR days a manufacters photo shows diamond frames. The wagon number not visible

Moving on

GW lettered wagon photos of GW 32352 and 32348 show diamond frames.

However

32348 is lettered Bogie Bolster A

and

32352 is lettered Macaw G

So you could have one of each?

Can't date any of the photos........

Perhaps 32348 is in early BR time before GW lettering updated? Looks likely - Paul Bartlett shows eg Bogie Bolster B (Macaw C) - perhaps BB A was type with a wide range of varieties.

None of Pauls extensive photos shows an ex TVR bogie bolter, sadly

 

Seasonal greetings to all

 

 

[watfordtmc]

The consensus of opinion is that the Macaws G were 35 feet overall, and the shortfall on the kit is down to Ratio (or Parkside now of course).

 

The two images in GW Wagons (Ref 1) were taken in the 1930’s (32352) according to the caption; and sometime in the late 1940’s (32348) I believe (see note).

 

Both images show diamond frame bogies with 8 spoke wheels, so my view is that the bogies were never changed, and probably not the wheels either.  For your specified time period I would fit diamond frame bogies and spoked wheels.

 

Numbers for the ex TVR ‘Macaws G’ is quoted in both references as:

32327, 32328, 32331-40, 32343-48, 32351 & 32352

 

From the image of 32352, which seems most relevant to your interests, the wagons were lettered (written in GW speak?) in the form: No., Code, G W, Load/tare.

 

32352 was painted to the right of the 1st stanchion bracket, MACAW G to the right of the 2nd stanchion bracket, G to the left of the 4th stanchion bracket, W to the right the 5th stanchion bracket, 30 Tons Tare 16-xx to the right of  the 7th stanchion bracket.  The load and tare were italicised.

 

The Macaw G sketch in Ref 2 states the tare to be ‘16t-0c’, but 32352 seems to tare 16 tons and a number of hundredweight.  Unfortunately the image is not clear enough to show what the cwt was, and in the image of 32348 the tare is obscured by shunters chalking’s!

 

The NCU plate was mounted on the underframe at the extreme right hand end.

 

It would be a lot easier to post a copy of the images, but OPC is still an active imprint and I have no idea who now holds copyright of JH Russell’s images.

 

Note on dating image of 32348

I have stated that 32348 was photographed in the late 1940’s.  I do so on the basis that:

a)    The wagon is coded “Bogie Bolster A’’ using the standard RCH code that was applied across all companies from 1943.

b)    The image is uncredited – very few images in GW Wagons have a photographer’s credit – but I believe the photographer to be JH Russell.

c)    Russell was a GW Traffic Apprentice (Management Trainee in modern speak) before the Second World War, but after his war service left the         railway in 1945, and became a professional photographer, which seems to have been when he started recording the GWR.

d)    The few images that are dated tend to be post-war, and other images or their backgrounds either show a proportion of wagons with the                later lettering styles (e.g. 1936/1942 or the 1943 RCH codes) or very early BR notations.

 

References

1. A Pictorial Record of Great Western Wagons, Russell J, Oxford Publishing Co (Oxford) reprinted 1975.  pp 77 for list of Macaw numbers, pp 81 for images of 32348/32352.
2. GWR Goods Wagons, Atkins A, Beard W, Tourret R, Oxford Publishing Co (Hersham) 2013.  pp 208 for the same two images as Ref 1, pp 209 for sketch of Macaw G.

 

Regards (& Happy Christmas)

TMc

25/12/2021

 

[Andy Keane]

3 hours ago, watfordtmc said:

The consensus of opinion is that the Macaws G were 35 feet overall, and the shortfall on the kit is down to Ratio (or Parkside now of course).

 

The two images in GW Wagons (Ref 1) were taken in the 1930’s (32352) according to the caption; and sometime in the late 1940’s (32348) I believe (see note).

 

Both images show diamond frame bogies with 8 spoke wheels, so my view is that the bogies were never changed, and probably not the wheels either.  For your specified time period I would fit diamond frame bogies and spoked wheels.

 

Numbers for the ex TVR ‘Macaws G’ is quoted in both references as:

32327, 32328, 32331-40, 32343-48, 32351 & 32352

 

From the image of 32352, which seems most relevant to your interests, the wagons were lettered (written in GW speak?) in the form: No., Code, G W, Load/tare.

 

32352 was painted to the right of the 1st stanchion bracket, MACAW G to the right of the 2nd stanchion bracket, G to the left of the 4th stanchion bracket, W to the right the 5th stanchion bracket, 30 Tons Tare 16-xx to the right of  the 7th stanchion bracket.  The load and tare were italicised.

 

The Macaw G sketch in Ref 2 states the tare to be ‘16t-0c’, but 32352 seems to tare 16 tons and a number of hundredweight.  Unfortunately the image is not clear enough to show what the cwt was, and in the image of 32348 the tare is obscured by shunters chalking’s!

 

The NCU plate was mounted on the underframe at the extreme right hand end.

 

It would be a lot easier to post a copy of the images, but OPC is still an active imprint and I have no idea who now holds copyright of JH Russell’s images.

 

Note on dating image of 32348

I have stated that 32348 was photographed in the late 1940’s.  I do so on the basis that:

a)    The wagon is coded “Bogie Bolster A’’ using the standard RCH code that was applied across all companies from 1943.

b)    The image is uncredited – very few images in GW Wagons have a photographer’s credit – but I believe the photographer to be JH Russell.

c)    Russell was a GW Traffic Apprentice (Management Trainee in modern speak) before the Second World War, but after his war service left the         railway in 1945, and became a professional photographer, which seems to have been when he started recording the GWR.

d)    The few images that are dated tend to be post-war, and other images or their backgrounds either show a proportion of wagons with the                later lettering styles (e.g. 1936/1942 or the 1943 RCH codes) or very early BR notations.

 

References

1. A Pictorial Record of Great Western Wagons, Russell J, Oxford Publishing Co (Oxford) reprinted 1975.  pp 77 for list of Macaw numbers, pp 81 for images of 32348/32352.
2. GWR Goods Wagons, Atkins A, Beard W, Tourret R, Oxford Publishing Co (Hersham) 2013.  pp 208 for the same two images as Ref 1, pp 209 for sketch of Macaw G.

 

Regards (& Happy Christmas)

TMc

25/12/2021

 

Brilliant - many thanks indeed. I do wonder why ratio made the kits to a 33 foot length - I guess few people would notice. The extra length seems to need to go in the middle - the underframing central span is 8mm too short so fixing that would bring it all back into the correct proportions, though the markings on the mouldings for the stanchions are all over the pace and best ignored I think.

I will post some photos as I build these wagons up. I have some 8 spoke metal wheels and diamond bogies on order and meantime I can focus on the wagons themselves.

I plan Kadee couplers so will also have to see how to integrate those into the bogies.

I recently built a Siphon F kit up and that had nice whitemetal bogies which were easy to add couplers to and also added some useful weight to the wagon. I may try and weight up the bogies for these Macaws with some brass parts and just use the outside mouldings from the kits - we shall see.

regards and happy Christmas

Andy

Edited December 25, 2021 by Andy Keane

[hmrspaul]

20 hours ago, BMS said:

 

32348 is lettered Bogie Bolster A

 

 

 

Perhaps 32348 is in early BR time before GW lettering updated? Looks likely - Paul Bartlett shows eg Bogie Bolster B (Macaw C) - perhaps BB A was type with a wide range of varieties.

None of Pauls extensive photos shows an ex TVR bogie bolter, sadly

 

Seasonal greetings to all

 

 

How old do you think I am? 

 

No one has yet come on and said they have examined the GWR registers easily available in the NRM. This may well give details of any bogie changes although possibly not the main descriptions. I'm always suspicious of published "lengths"; it is too easy to confuse over buffers and over headstocks. 

Bogie Bolster A is, of course, a BR description. I am away from home and don't have the description, but like TOPS they are more likely based on tonnage not length or anything else. Atkins et al is a wonderful book - well at least the big bible is - but they may a hash of understanding, or even recording, the huge number of wagons that came from the Welsh companies. They simply ignored them or suggested they were ancient when, of course, new wagons were being built right up until Grouping. 

 

The Ratio kit dates way before some mentions on here. A look through the mags should identify date but early to mid 60s is when I made one, and I am suspicious there was a wood bodied one earlier - but that may have been a Kenline kit. 

 

Happy holidays

 

Paul

 

[Andy Keane]

On 25/12/2021 at 20:29, hmrspaul said:

How old do you think I am? 

 

No one has yet come on and said they have examined the GWR registers easily available in the NRM. This may well give details of any bogie changes although possibly not the main descriptions. I'm always suspicious of published "lengths"; it is too easy to confuse over buffers and over headstocks. 

Bogie Bolster A is, of course, a BR description. I am away from home and don't have the description, but like TOPS they are more likely based on tonnage not length or anything else. Atkins et al is a wonderful book - well at least the big bible is - but they may a hash of understanding, or even recording, the huge number of wagons that came from the Welsh companies. They simply ignored them or suggested they were ancient when, of course, new wagons were being built right up until Grouping. 

 

The Ratio kit dates way before some mentions on here. A look through the mags should identify date but early to mid 60s is when I made one, and I am suspicious there was a wood bodied one earlier - but that may have been a Kenline kit. 

 

Happy holidays

 

Paul

 

My kits date from 1973/4 which was when I started my Helston model (yes I know I am not being speedy - a wife, a career and three children have slowed me down).

I have measured the length of the central rod truss in the moulding and it is exactly 20mm / five feet long (the TVR sketch drawing says it should be seven feet / 28mm). The diagonal parts of the bracing are 19mm long so about the same length, four feet nine inches, see below. It is very clear from the photos of the real wagons that the central part is rather longer than the two diagonals - I make it a ratio of about 3:4:3 on the photos using a ruler. In the TVR sketch plan it is shown as 5'6":7':5'6" so 3.05:3.9:3.05 which is pretty close. So while the diagonals are perhaps 3mm too short the central part is 8mm too short and also relatively simply to lengthen which is my plan. This would also bring the length over headstocks up to 35 feet as desired.

Andy

ps - the buffer beam in my kit is 31mm long so 7 feet 9 inches full scale while the TVR drawing shows it as 7 feet 4 inches so my kit is about 2mm too wide - a point Miss Prism makes above. This is probably less noticeable and rather harder to fix.

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

Suitably elongated bodywork for my Macaw G / ex TVR wagons. Now measuring 35 foot over headstocks. Not sure it was worth the faff but something to do on Boxing day. I think when painted and weathered the insert will not be noticed but the overall shape better reflects the original. I left the two interior underframes as they were - I am not even sure the orignal wagons had four sets of bracing looking at the photos - its hard to tell. Again the fact they are a bit short will I think never show.

The grey bodied kit shows the additions rather more clearly - note small strengthening pieces I have added (no idea why one of my kits was moulded in grey):

Edited April 7, 2022 by Andy Keane