Microswitch for Peco points

[Ben Alder]

Bit of advice need here. I am replacing the Peco polarity switches that glue on to their point after several playing up and am confused by the variety on offer on ebay. Could someone point me in the direction of a suitable type, please. I did buy some a few years ago, based on info here,IIR, but can't find any similar ones in my searches.

[RFS]

You mean something like this  on Ebay - a toggle switch worked by the point motor or the tie-bar.

 

Alternatively the Gaugemaster GM500 relay which is especially useful if you have a cross-over since one switch will do for both turnouts as it's DPDT. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by RFS

[Titan]

I use these, might be the same as the Gaugemaster one except without the PCB etc, but I find it works just fine with the coils wired in parallel with the point motor with no diodes or resistors.

 

https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Panasonic-Industrial-Devices/TQ2SA-L2-12V-X?qs=YINDDaGsG3G1Dq5YIx48ZA==&mgh=1&vip=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA5aWOBhDMARIsAIXLlkfb9k1AGms0UQGIYs2MYRUnKw3OwEqqdh9_h1eI8sPt0jsaWY8EeVsaAhlfEALw_wcB

[Butler Henderson]

I have used lever fitted microswitches with the lever bearing on the solenoids operating rod. Difficulty is finding ones that are so lightly sprung that they do not affect the solenoids performance - the ones I found to work okay were alarm switches sold by Maplin RIP, the online recreation does not deal in such things.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Butler Henderson

[ikcdab]

I have found microswitches difficult to set up and work properly. And I would work about the strength of the solenoid to operate and hold the switch in position.

I moved to relays sometime ago and have never regretted it. I use these ones

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-x-Subminiature-PCB-12V-Signal-Relay-DPDT-/254167283689?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

 

The issue you will have is providing a constant current to hold the relay when solenoid motors require a momentary pulse. It depends on how you actuate your solenoids.

 

 

 

 

[WIMorrison]

19 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

I have found microswitches difficult to set up and work properly....

 

 

 

 

 

How do you know that the turnout has actually thrown using relays, and how do you ensure that you don't get a track short with the relay switching faster than the turnout?

[ikcdab]

11 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

How do you know that the turnout has actually thrown using relays, and how do you ensure that you don't get a track short with the relay switching faster than the turnout?

I'm not sure what you mean by the first question as I flick my switch, the point motors over and the relay switches.

I am working DC. The point vee is electrically isolated from everything else so its polarity cannot cause a short circuit. I have a large layout with 35 sets of points which i run frequently.  I have never had a short circuit problem of the type you describe.

Ian

[WIMorrison]

The point is that the switching of the turnout and the relay are not synchronised with each other - either one can switch without the other switching.

[AndyID]

7 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

I have used lever fitted microswitches with the lever bearing on the solenoids operating rod. Difficulty is finding ones that are so lightly sprung that they do not affect the solenoids performance - the ones I found to work okay were alarm switches sold by Maplin RIP, the online recreation does not deal in such things.

Looks lice the middle spade connector us not plugged on to the spade

[ikcdab]

4 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

The point is that the switching of the turnout and the relay are not synchronised with each other - either one can switch without the other switching.

It depends on how you do it. On my layout, one switch operates the point motor and the relay simultaneously.

Ian

[WIMorrison]

You are still assuming - of hoping - that the turnout and the micro switch will both throw at the same time. 
 

Mechanical linkage is needed to ensure  that the polarity is only changed when the turnout throws, this is what a switch on the tiebar or motor achieves. If the motor doesn’t move, tiebar doesn’t move therefor switch doesn’t change which means polarity isn’t changed.

 

in your case the motor could move and the relay doesn't, or vice versa.

 

whilst I admire you faith in Peco motors and the belief that a relay will always sync the motion with the polarity changes - I would not do this and wouldn’t advise anyone to do this either.

[Chris Densham]

I couldn't understand why I had problems with the Peco switches when they are such a simple arrangement. Suffice to say I found that simply unclipping them (taking them apart) and bending the copper connector to a greater degree of bend ( technical term!) and clipping back together solved the problem. 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Chris Densham
Spelling

[RFS]

There will be no problem with polarity so long as the frog has been fully isolated, ie the connecting wires underneath the Peco point have been cut so the frog is not connected to the blades.

 

As far as reliability is concerned, the relay will always switch. If the point motor does not, then you have a bigger problem than having the wrong polarity on the frog. You obviously cannot use the second switch on a DPDT relay to display an LED on your control panel, as that does not guarantee the blades have moved. 

 

I still have a few Peco motors on my layout due to clearance issues under the baseboard, and use home-made latching relay boards to manage polarity. Never had an issue. 

 

 

[WIMorrison]

There is one enduring fact within RMWeb which is that no matter what is said someone will contradict the statement and say that they have never had a problem in xxx years of operating opposite to what has been suggested.
 

There is however a significant difference in something fortuitously operating and it being designed to operate reliably and consistently.

[Butler Henderson]

1 hour ago, AndyID said:

Looks lice the middle spade connector us not plugged on to the spade

Well spotted - have been shuffling stuff on the shelf below and must have caught the wire.

[Titan]

7 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

How do you know that the turnout has actually thrown using relays, and how do you ensure that you don't get a track short with the relay switching faster than the turnout?

 

7 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

The point is that the switching of the turnout and the relay are not synchronised with each other - either one can switch without the other switching.

 

2 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

There is one enduring fact within RMWeb which is that no matter what is said someone will contradict the statement and say that they have never had a problem in xxx years of operating opposite to what has been suggested.
 

There is however a significant difference in something fortuitously operating and it being designed to operate reliably and consistently.

 

What is your problem?  I have also used this method and it has worked faultlessly and reliably every time, far more so than any mechanically operated switch.  No shorts, no issues with one switching before the other, no sticky or dirty contacts, just 100% reliable operation every time.  Not only that the self latching relays are cheaper than the microswitches too.  And you can easily wire in as many as you like on one set of points to operate panel lights, signals, or even in my case switching the OLE as well.  Also, because they are not mechanically attached to the points you are not restricted to where you put them - if you are using them for control panel indications you can even have them behind the control panel if you so wish, wherever is convenient. Now if you have used relays such as these and had a problem then fine, but if not then why are you trying to invent problems that don't exist, and contradicting the experience of those that do use them without any basis?  There is no fortuitous operation, the relays are doing what they are designed to do and do it well.

 

Now I am not trying to persuade you against using micro switches or whatever you prefer, but you should not be trying to discourage people from making an informed decision about alternatives that work by trying to "suggest" problems that don't exist.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Titan

[AndyID]

4 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

You are still assuming - of hoping - that the turnout and the micro switch will both throw at the same time. 
 

Mechanical linkage is needed to ensure  that the polarity is only changed when the turnout throws, this is what a switch on the tiebar or motor achieves. If the motor doesn’t move, tiebar doesn’t move therefor switch doesn’t change which means polarity isn’t changed.

 

in your case the motor could move and the relay doesn't, or vice versa.

 

whilst I admire you faith in Peco motors and the belief that a relay will always sync the motion with the polarity changes - I would not do this and wouldn’t advise anyone to do this either.

 

 If they are two-coil latching relays they are synchronized with the solenoid point motor. (Assuming the point motor doesn't jam.)

 

More here:  https://ac-faq.industrial.panasonic.com/en/faq_detail.html?category=&page=2&id=1223

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by AndyID
more info

[NinOz]

3 hours ago, Titan said:

What is your problem? 

Their problem is they are talking about the situation where the frog is electrically connected to other live bits of the track so when point blades touch the rails the frog has to be the same polarity or a short will occur.  This usually needs some sort of switch timed to blade movement.  Can be tricky to get just right, especially in smaller scales.

Whereas the relay method uses a completely isolated frog the polarity of which is independent of blade position so any possible short would be limited to misalignment of polarities of frog and blades coupled with the actions of passing conducting wheels. 

Some people just need to read and comprehend what has been written, rather than apply their limited view to all situations.

[Titan]

With the two coil latching relay the switching action is timed exactly to the the blade movement, as the coils of the relay are in parallel with the coils of the point and receive the same power at exactly the same time, so they are perfectly timed without any trickyness whatsoever, no matter what the scale.  the relay method can use any frog configuration you want, isolated/not isolated or whatever, you can wire them exactly the same as you would a microswitch, or any other way if you prefer.

[AndyID]

1 hour ago, NinOz said:

Their problem is they are talking about the situation where the frog is electrically connected to other live bits of the track so when point blades touch the rails the frog has to be the same polarity or a short will occur.  This usually needs some sort of switch timed to blade movement.  Can be tricky to get just right, especially in smaller scales.

Whereas the relay method uses a completely isolated frog the polarity of which is independent of blade position so any possible short would be limited to misalignment of polarities of frog and blades coupled with the actions of passing conducting wheels. 

Some people just need to read and comprehend what has been written, rather than apply their limited view to all situations.

 

Yes. The frog must only be supplied through the relay. It has to be completely isolated from the switch rails and that applies with both the relay and micro-switch methods.

 

Ian Morrison is correct in saying the relay and the solenoid can be in opposing states. That can happen if the point solenoid fails to move the tiebar for some reason. In that respect a switch activated by the tiebar is a bit better but a solenoid that fails to set the points correctly is a bigger problem.

 

(Personally I hate solenoid point motors but that's neither here nor there )

[DY444]

15 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

There is one enduring fact within RMWeb which is that no matter what is said someone will contradict the statement and say that they have never had a problem in xxx years of operating opposite to what has been suggested.
 

There is however a significant difference in something fortuitously operating and it being designed to operate reliably and consistently.

 

What's your definition of reliability then?  Mine is "never had a problem in xxx years of operating".

 

There is often more than one way to do something and yet this "you can't do that because ..." thing comes up time after time.  I do things on my layout which people repeatedly tell me is "a bad idea because .." but they work for me so I don't understand why people get so upset about them. 

 

Just with points the way I choose to move them, detect them and set the polarity seems to send people into fits of apoplexy because they are (or were when I first adopted them) somewhat unconventional and/or filled with other people's idea of fatal flaws notwithstanding the fact that they all work for me and the way my layout is operated.  What they can't seem to grasp is that if the flaws they perceive were actually happening then I'd do things differently.  Hey ho.

Edited December 29, 2021 by DY444

[ikcdab]

15 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

There is one enduring fact within RMWeb which is that no matter what is said someone will contradict the statement and say that they have never had a problem in xxx years of operating opposite to what has been suggested.
 

There is however a significant difference in something fortuitously operating and it being designed to operate reliably and consistently.

I wouldn't say that my reliable operation is "fortuitous". I designed in reliability from the outset and you can see the results on my layout thread.

I do not use solenoid point motors for all the reasons that have been aired here for ages.

I use ordinary servos (about £2 each) operated by MERG drivers (about £5 to operate 4 turnouts). All I then need is a simple on/off switch to operate the turnout. No messing about with passing contacts or cdus or whatever. I use double pole on/off switches. One pole is the on/off for the servo, the other pole is for 12v to fire the relay which changes polarity (about £1.20 each). The common crossings (frogs?) are totally isolated from the point blades and no short circuit can possibly occur. The relay can be positioned anywhere and is totally reliable.

As I said above, I operate my layout frequently and have around 35 turnouts. In a couple of years, I have not had any failures whatsoever. It is totally reliable and works perfectly everytime. I am in Somerset and I am happy for visitors to come and see any time.

Ian

[Titan]

Indeed, I started off by having switching on the point motors, be it the Peco ones that were causing the problems in the OP or the built in ones on Seeps, which also are known to have issues.  When I discovered twin coil self latching relays with coils that could handle the voltages used on capacitor discharge units and therefore be wired directly in parallel with the point motor coils, that immediately became my new way of doing things despite at the time being a method that I had not heard of anyone else using. It works very well and has significant advantages over mechanically operated switches, both in terms of reliability, simplicity and convenience.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Titan

[AndyID]

9 hours ago, ikcdab said:

I wouldn't say that my reliable operation is "fortuitous". I designed in reliability from the outset and you can see the results on my layout thread.

I do not use solenoid point motors for all the reasons that have been aired here for ages.

I use ordinary servos (about £2 each) operated by MERG drivers (about £5 to operate 4 turnouts). All I then need is a simple on/off switch to operate the turnout. No messing about with passing contacts or cdus or whatever. I use double pole on/off switches. One pole is the on/off for the servo, the other pole is for 12v to fire the relay which changes polarity (about £1.20 each). The common crossings (frogs?) are totally isolated from the point blades and no short circuit can possibly occur. The relay can be positioned anywhere and is totally reliable.

As I said above, I operate my layout frequently and have around 35 turnouts. In a couple of years, I have not had any failures whatsoever. It is totally reliable and works perfectly everytime. I am in Somerset and I am happy for visitors to come and see any time.

Ian

 

I use servos too but I remove the electronics and only use the motor and gears. The control panel has a simple on/off switch that powers a two-pole relay at the turnout. One pole controls the servo's motor and the other pole feeds the frog.

[Pete the Elaner]

On 28/12/2021 at 19:57, Titan said:

 

 

 

What is your problem?  I have also used this method and it has worked faultlessly and reliably every time, far more so than any mechanically operated switch.  No shorts, no issues with one switching before the other, no sticky or dirty contacts, just 100% reliable operation every time.  Not only that the self latching relays are cheaper than the microswitches too.  And you can easily wire in as many as you like on one set of points to operate panel lights, signals, or even in my case switching the OLE as well.  Also, because they are not mechanically attached to the points you are not restricted to where you put them - if you are using them for control panel indications you can even have them behind the control panel if you so wish, wherever is convenient. Now if you have used relays such as these and had a problem then fine, but if not then why are you trying to invent problems that don't exist, and contradicting the experience of those that do use them without any basis?  There is no fortuitous operation, the relays are doing what they are designed to do and do it well.

 

Now I am not trying to persuade you against using micro switches or whatever you prefer, but you should not be trying to discourage people from making an informed decision about alternatives that work by trying to "suggest" problems that don't exist.

 

The problem is recommending methods which work in one scenrio but not in another.

I normally use DCC now, but this is only relevant below the board. I fit a dropper to each rail isolate the same & feed frogs the same.

But the point being made is that we all have our short cuts which work for us with the way we do other things.

 

An example for me is that I use D plugs. A friend of mine recommends using shrink wrap on each connection. I agree this is a good recommendation but it is something I have never done myself. I consider my soldering to be fairly neat & I always use hoods for the plugs & attach the sockets to blocks, so both are secured nicely & the wire ends have no chance to be pulled about relative to the plug. This has never given me a problem.

So I therefore feel that omitting shrink wrap is a short cut which works with other methods I insist on using.

But would I recommend to strangers on a forum that they not bother with shrink wrap? No, because if they don't also follow the other methods I use, they may cause themselves problems.