OO branchline in 8'x6'

[Chimer]

That plan will allow you to drop the branch by an inch or two between Hellydale and Xenasholme and maybe a smidge more between Xenasholme and Timsden, which will nicely differentiate between main and branch where they are running nearly parallel.  The use of the cassette to represent the branch beyond Timsden looks like a really good idea.  You could operate is if there were any number of stations on the branch, some with passing loops ...... so not necessarily a single-engine-in-steam set up.

 

I think adding at least one more siding in Hellydale goods yard, with identified spots for specific types of wagon, would significantly increase the fun/challenge of shunting there.

 

But the key to having the variety of operations that I would like to see (you might not be interested in the same things, obviously) will be ease of use of the vertical traverser.  Without it, you will be quite limited: with it, lots of options open up.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Chimer

[Zomboid]

Is it really essential to have two stations on the branch? It seems that it's a huge squeeze to get two in, and does it gain anything important?

[RJS1977]

1 hour ago, Chimer said:

That plan will allow you to drop the branch by an inch or two between Hellydale and Xenasholme and maybe a smidge more between Xenasholme and Timsden, which will nicely differentiate between main and branch where they are running nearly parallel.  The use of the cassette to represent the branch beyond Timsden looks like a really good idea.  You could operate is if there were any number of stations on the branch, some with passing loops ...... so not necessarily a single-engine-in-steam set up.

 

I think adding at least one more siding in Hellydale goods yard, with identified spots for specific types of wagon, would significantly increase the fun/challenge of shunting there.

 

But the key to having the variety of operations that I would like to see (you might not be interested in the same things, obviously) will be ease of use of the vertical traverser.  Without it, you will be quite limited: with it, lots of options open up.

 

I'd go as far as to say - build the main line first, and make sure the vertical traverser and the turntable are working properly, before building the baseboards for the branch, which are going to make access to these more difficult.

 

I'm just thinking that an alternative to the vertical traverser might be to have lift-off cassettes there that can be placed on shelves above the layout. This would enable trains to be reversed easily. Of course, you'd need some sort of system to ensure trains weren't driven round there without a cassette in place!

[Harlequin]

Hi Tim, (What do you code?)

 

This is a big improvement to my eye - much more practical and easy to live with. The cassette at the end of the branch line is a great idea.

 

Some further thoughts:

 

The removable section by the door is too big and too complicated, I fear. Lots of track joints to keep aligned and many of them are curving while they cross the joints. The platform crossing one of the joints will have an annoying line right across it. The board will be heavy to lift and the delicate buildings on it will be prone to damage. You might say that it won't be removed often and you would usually duck-under. Fair enough but then why bother with the complexity of making it removable? If really has to be removable then it would be better if it was much smaller and simpler - requiring a complete rejig of the plan, unfortunately. On the other hand if that section is a fixed duck-under then you've got more scope to change the track levels/gradients if you want to.

 

The bigger the cassette, the more difficult and less safe it is to handle. 4ft is on the upper limits and in your restricted operating well smaller cassettes might be a big improvement. A 3ft cassette would hold a small tank loco and 3 coaches. 3ft6in would hold a large tank loco, 3 coaches and a tail traffic van. Both those formations should be big enough for most branch line services and obviously the permutations of locos, coaches, vans and wagons within those lengths are infinite. In fact big enough for a single track main line, which leads on to...

 

I think you said before that the "vertical traverser" would actually be something much simpler. So, thinking of it as "vertical storage" instead then it would be really sensible and flexible if it used exactly the same cassettes as the branch line. Then you could swap things around at will to simulate any operating pattern, on any imaginary network topology you wanted. That would also give you more room to straight the track out before it hits the vertical storage.

 

BTW: Note that some shunting moves in Hellydale might need to run onto an empty road in the vertical storage. Not necessarily a problem, just something to be aware of.

 

Scenically, the branch line is very close to the main line all around. Will it "read" as a separate line? Will Hellydale and Timsden read as two separate stations? I'm sure it can be done but you might need to leave a bit more space on the plan for scenic elements to help differentiate them. Actually, Hellydale and Timsden could be modelled as "Hellydale High level" and "Hellydale Low Level" with some scenic connection between them but still operated as separate stations.

 

Hellydale is very close to the backscene for its entire length. How will you disguise the transition from scene to backscene? Maybe more room is needed to do that in places.

 

Is the branch line imagined to be terminal or does it connect back into the network somewhere? It makes a difference to what you need from the cassette at the end of the branch: You might need to have your loco "run round" but not turn the whole train.

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Harlequin

[Harlequin]

More radical thoughts:

If the branch line went around the room twice that might help make some things work better...

 

Assume the branch is generally descending as it circles, as @Chimer suggested.

 

Xenasholme could be slid further along so that it is away from the door and in front of the vertical storage. After Xenasholme, the branch line dives into a tunnel in front of Hellydale so that Hellydale no longer has Timsden confusingly right next to it. (There's probably not enough elevation difference for a true tunnel here so the upper landscape would need to rise to cover the branch line.)

 

By the time it reaches the Hellydale sidings there may be enough elevation difference for it to run under them, which would make more efficient use of the space. (Not sure.)

 

Then the branch line continues on around, descending all the time. It may be covered or open in places, as required to help the layout not look too dense.

 

It crosses the doorway again, round in front of Xenasholme and the storage, still descending, round in front of Hellydale, this time in the open, maybe in a cutting now, and finally into Timsden, which is a bit further around towards the top. Its new position and the elevation difference now separate it visually from Hellydale. If you're lucky that final descending circuit would give enough elevation difference for the terminal cassette to be partly under the upper levels, again making more efficient use of the room.

 

So

• The stations are more evenly spaced
• The branch line is more clearly separated from the main line
• The bridge across the door is smaller and simpler (although it now carries tracks on different levels so might still need to be a fixed duck-under...)
• The journey time from Hellydale to Timsden is satisfyingly longer
• There's more simple single track in the countryside between stations.

 

I haven't worked out the levels to know how feasible that is, though!

 

Just a thought!

Edited January 16, 2022 by Harlequin

[RJS1977]

Just thinking about the short distance between Xenasholme and Timsden (especially if Xenasholme is moved off the removable board):

 

The station building at Hellydale is shown as being over the tracks. This means that it is likely served by a road passing over the top of Hellydale station. This road will then pass over the branch, effectively creating a scenic break between Xenasholme and Timsden.

This will also have the effect of 'breaking up' a journey between Hellydale and Timsden (especially if a train from Hellydale has had to wait to pass another at Xenasholme), making the close proximity of Timsden and Hellydale less of a problem.

[Coder Tim]

@Chimer I think you're right about a third siding at Hellydale, will work that out in more detail later.  You're also spot-on about the main storage being important for operation, I'm drifting towards cassettes now rather than the vertical traverser but not sure either way yet.

 

@Zomboid I think the second branch station is important for a couple of reasons.  The minor considerations are modelling operation of a station that isn't a block post, operating a one-directional goods yard, and providing more than one possible destination on the branch.  The major reason is that it makes the branch feel more like a complete system to me in a way that defining one that exists somewhere beyond the fiddleyard wouldn't, if that makes any sense.

 

@RJS1977 Good idea to get the outer loop running as well as possible while it's still accessible, I'll definitely do that.  It's a good point about the road bridge acting as a scenic break, I'll bear that in mind when evaluating the options.

 

@Harlequin If the others will forgive the diversion, professionally I've mostly written simulations of various things, starting with games then cancer research, pharmaceutical simulation and now engineering simulations.  Also had a brief diversion into GPU driver development which was interesting.  Am I right in thinking you are one of the developers for a CAD package?
On the cassette length, I'm going to leave them at 4ft while designing and then do some practical experiments to see what I can handle, I can always fit a smaller cassette into a large space.  I like the idea of running the branch round twice, I've drafted that and it provides nice long runs but does add a lot of complexity.  Looking at the diagram below it would be trivial to keep Xenasholme and Timsden in their new locations but only go around once, I'm not sure which option I prefer yet.  I've also indicated hidden sections to try and get a better sense of how the separation between lines will feel.

 

[Harlequin]

Hmmm... That does look a bit complicated...

 

I work for Xara, mainly on our desktop drawing program, Xara Designer, but the company is moving more and more towards online tools now.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Harlequin

[RJS1977]

Yes, definitely looks too complicated to me too. All those different levels are going to make the removable section very complicated, and all those tunnels are going to be difficult to access.

 

Also, having the main line in tunnel whilst the branch line adjacent to it is not will look odd! Maybe put the main line behind a false backscene instead (possibly the branch as well).

 

However I think there is something to be said for moving the cassette round to be in front of Xenasholme.

 

Personally I think there is sufficient distance between X and T anyway (especially with the road bridge as a scenic break) that the extra loop round the room between them can be left out. (You could also create more distance visually between X and T by reversing the sidiing at T and putting it behind the platform*).

 

If you wanted to get more distance on the branch, you could bring X out a bit, take a line behind it, call at T first, then at X, then have the cassette in front of T. (you can swap X and T over if you prefer).

 

*Also just wondering if there is a way of working in a loaded/empty circuit between H and T given their proximity. I'll have a think about it.

[Coder Tim]

I've had a very quick go at sketching the suggestion of 1.5 laps and it seems like it might be a good compromise: better running lengths but with no overlapping tracks so much simpler to build and maintain.  Also much less hidden track:

 

 

Does this look more manageable to everyone?

 

@Harlequin Yeah, the whole industry seems to be going web based, I'm going to have to learn it at some point.

[Coder Tim]

I still felt the layout was too complicated so I've been letting it percolate and had an idea the other.  The overbridge station at Hellydale is inspired by Keighley which has four platforms, two for the mainline and two for a (fairly significant) branch.  I realised that if I go with this approach I only have to model the branch side which is effectively a terminus so can be pushed up into the corner.  This also means I can have the vertical traverser for the mainline inside the station behind a fake backscene so I can eliminate the main line completely.

 

I built a new version of the plan like this, pros are that it simplifies things quite a bit, opens up the scenery somewhat, fixes all remaining access issues, and widens all the visible curves to at least 2ft.  The only downside I can see is that I can't use a cassette in the main line anymore, it will have to be an actual vertical traverser, but that doesn't bother me, neither does losing the continuous run.

 

A couple of practical notes: I've re-added one of the reversing loops (but not the one that was causing difficulties).  This may be too complicated in real life but if so I can fall back to the cassette plan from the previous version without any difficulties, going to try it because not having to pick the train up and turn it around at the end of the branch feels like it will make the operation a lot easier.  Secondly, on the plan one of the hidden lines fouls the vertical traverser, this isn't the case in the actual templot plan, I just adjusted to make the plan easier to read.

 

 

Thoughts or opinions?

[Chimer]

I am quite attracted to the idea of a vertical traverser, but while I would be happy with one acting as a set of through storage loops, using one as a terminal fiddle yard, where locos and brake vans have to be removed, turned or swapped seems fraught with difficulty, even without being hidden behind a backscene.  So I think I would suggest this is not your best idea so far .... unless you have a clear plan for how it would work in practice?

 

Sorry .....

[Happy Hippo]

The only problem with any traverser, (vertical or horizontal) stuck up against a wall and behind a back scene is one of accessibility when something goes wrong.

 

When you are building inside a room and are building out to the walls, there is a tendency to start packing in too much and end up with a case of the dreadful stretches if you aren't careful.

[Harlequin]

Crewlisle uses the temporary reversing loop connection across the operating well as its (his) storage cassette and that might be a neat trick to employ here because it would kill several birds with one stone:

• Rolling stock exchange in the operating well where you can get at it.
• Feed new trains onto the fixed layout in either direction.
• Reversing loop not in the way all the time.

Then, to get the desired length of run maybe configure the main fixed layout as a folded figure of 8?

 

[Zomboid]

A vertical traverser with a track above (or below) it isn't going to work.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

A vertical traverser with a track above (or below) it isn't going to work.

 

The situation requires a quantum traverser which holds any number of trains on the same track, so long as you don't look at it.

[RJS1977]

Could you rotate the plan through 180 degrees so that Timsden is on the lift-out section and the fiddle yard is in the corner by the door? That way, the fiddle yard could be accessed by removing the lift-out section, or just through the doorway.

 

If the layout is now representing a branch line with just the bay platforms at Hellydale*, I would envisage that there wouldn't be much in the way of through traffic coming out of the fiddle yard - probably just the branch goods train with maybe an occasional through passenger working. To that end, the vertical traverser is superfluous - I'd suggest instead either a single or double track cassette that could be set up the right way round at the start of an operating session (i.e. before the lift-out section is in place). Both trains depart and arrive back during the session, and at the end, the lifting section would be removed and the cassette would either be reversed or exchanged for a similar one containing different stock.

 

(*) I'm not quite sure how the backscene at Hellydale will work. You can't paint the rest of the station on the backscene as a train going behind the backscene will seem to 'disappear'. An alternative would be for Hellydale to be the terminus of a light railway, with the station being distant from the 'main line' station, and the line behind the backscene being the link line. (The thought's just struck me that at the other extreme, Reading Southern had a similar relationship to Reading General, or even Paddington to the Metropolitan platforms!

[Coder Tim]

I think we're all agreed that the previous attempt was a step backwards but it got me thinking about termini.  Specifically if I have a terminus at the end of the branch it saves me having to turn large cassettes or find space for a return loop.  Doing this means moving the branch to the outside of the mainline, which has the nice effect of bringing the storage to the inside next to the operating well:

 

 

Does this look reasonable?

[RJS1977]

Yes, that looks a lot better. The only minor amendment I can think of might be to move the signalbox at Xenasholme onto the platform.

 

Depending on era, Timsden could potentially be arranged to give the appearance that the line once went further.

[RJS1977]

Also - the headshunt at Hellydale needs to be longer.

[Chimer]

Istr you're building your own track, but there looks to be an awful lot of pointwork in a small space in the Hellydale throat?

[RJS1977]

You could probably take the Hellydale loop down to single track on leaving the station, then split out to the branch and main, rather than having two crossovers between parallel single lines (saving two points). I wouldn't anticipate Hellydale being so intensively worked that there would be a need to avoid conflicting moves.

 

(And you can't operate the branch and main line independently anyway as any branch trains arriving at H would require any trains circulating the main line to stop in order for the loco to run round the branch train).