Help me wire this layout :)

[MikuMatt81]

Hi everyone,

 

   My name is matt and I am totally new to the world of model railways, so the only knowledge I have is what Ive learnt from youtube videos these last few weeks, and a few Peco mags.

 

I have come up with a basic oval trackplan for the limited space I have, which is 7.8ft x 3.6ft. I used anyrail for the plan, but because I cant afford the nearly £50 for a licence fee, I had to photoshop the rest together!

 

This is meant to be a basic family fun latout using Peco setrack, and points will be operated manually. With this in mind, given a basic 2 wire bus running around the entire oval of track, would you guys be kind enough to mark (red for "pos", blue for "neg) on the diagram, all the areas that need droppers in order to ensure smooth operation?

 

This would be a massive help as I have limited time to spend on electrics, and frankly its not my forte.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

[ITG]

Welcome. Presumably the points you are using are also Set Track, meaning they are self-isolating (when the point is set in a direction, you only get power to that route, not the alternative route). That means if you wish to maximise the benefit of DCC, and thus run multiple locos at once, you need to remove that isolating capability, by having a power feed beyond each point. For example, the fan of sidings in the centre, would each need a feed, as would the small sections of track between point. Remember, and take care, that your red and blue feeds respectively should always be to the same rail. A cheap multimeter is a good investment to check continuity.

That said, recommended good practice when wiring a layout is that every individual piece of track has a feed, thus eradicating the need to rely solely on rail joiners for connectivity around the layout, as these can be unreliable over time. Others will say they enjoy trouble free running without doing that, but I didn’t want to take the risk as I preferred to avoid fault finding and correction later. 
Another piece of recommended good practice is that the track bus is not a full circuit, but should resemble a U, not an O.

 

On a slightly different note, I assume you have access for all round the board, as reach from back to front will be tricky.

(NB. I don’t have access to anything at the moment that I can easily mark feeds on your diagram)

Edited December 31, 2021 by ITG

[AndrueC]

As far as 'pos/neg' there are two ways to do it. The most common suggestion is to attach a felt-tip pen to the side of a wagon and run it round the layout either leaving a trail or dabbing it as you go. I found that a bit fiddly so I just used two fingers, one on each rail.

 

To really ensure smooth operation every single piece of track needs droppers. You can't trust fishplates. For my next layout I'm going to attach droppers to each piece of track before I lay it. That way I can solder the underside of the rail which will help hide the wire. It should also avoid any confusion over pos/neg since you solder to match the track you're connecting to.

 

However for DCC I think the absolute minimum would be:

 

* At least one piece of track in each siding.

* Every piece of track on either side of a turnout. Or (and this is kind of poor practice) solder the droppers to the track joints on either end of the turnouts.

* The remainder of the track - as much as you want to.

 

This is based on my own personal experience over the last year. You just can't trust fishplates but nor can you trust turnouts to conduct power from rails across the points (ie; the bits that close and open). And in general you shouldn't solder track joints. However it's either that or solder the turnouts and the track on either side. As long as you don't solder very many track joints it's okay.

 

Something to be aware of is that your layout appears to be 1.2 metres in width. That puts the centre 600mm from the edges. That is 'within reach' but not comfortable. Whatever you put in the centre needs to be something easy to construct. Again I speak from experience here. When assembly the centre sidings I'd strongly suggest you assemble them off board then slide them into position making the final connection as near to the edge as possible.

 

Edit: Actually I would worry about how you're going to install droppers for those sidings. If the baseboard is well supported I suppose you could lie on it but that could be tricky if the outer loops are already laid and not fixed down and you need those in place to know where to put the centre sidings..

Edited December 31, 2021 by AndrueC

[ITG]

Another thought. I cannot tell what radius your curves are at each end of the layout, but be aware that many ready-to-run locos do not like radius 1, and manufacturers warn as such. What’s the inner radius track? 

[meil]

32 minutes ago, MikuMatt81 said:

This is meant to be a basic family fun latout using Peco setrack, and points will be operated manually. With this in mind, given a basic 2 wire bus running around the entire oval of track, would you guys be kind enough to mark (red for "pos", blue for "neg) on the diagram, all the areas that need droppers in order to ensure smooth operation?

 

There is no such thing as +ve or -ve in DCC. You must identify each bus wire as something else - many use J and K.

 

Decide which rail goes to J and which to K then CONSISTENTLY go around the layout connecting each J rail to J and each K to K.

 

You should provide frequent droppers to all track and in-particular to each point.

Edited December 31, 2021 by meil

[AndrueC]

BTW - I like the layout itself. Is the unfinished spur at the top going to be more sidings?

[melvin]

Nothing to add to what's been already said. However. You should decide what colour your Dropper wires are. Black for the outer rail and Red for the inner. Or any pair of colours you fancy. No written law. Remember not to use these colours for anything else.

[MikuMatt81]

10 hours ago, AndrueC said:

BTW - I like the layout itself. Is the unfinished spur at the top going to be more sidings?

 

Hi AndrueC,

 

   Thankyou so much for your detailed reply. Yes the unfinished spur is for future sidings,  Im on a tight budget so wanted to leave the option open for if and when I decided to add more, as I want shunting old wagons around to be the main focus of operations =)

 

From reading your's and others posts, the general concensus I get is that adding droppers to every piece of track would be ideal, but at minimum on every end of each turnout, plus whever else on the "maineline" I see fit - is that right?

 

I plan to go solderless by using peco droppers and splice connectors as shown in a guide I saw on youtube. I plan on installing the droppers before the baseboard is fixed indoors, so I will do most of the wiring in the garden where I have plenty of access.

 

 

[ITG]

I wonder what the sidings on the left side are for? They seem very short, so may be ok if only loco spurs. But anything longer, and by the time you’ve (possibly?) included an uncoupler ramp (on a straight) there wouldn’t be much space, if any.

[MikuMatt81]

10 hours ago, ITG said:

Welcome. Presumably the points you are using are also Set Track, meaning they are self-isolating (when the point is set in a direction, you only get power to that route, not the alternative route). That means if you wish to maximise the benefit of DCC, and thus run multiple locos at once, you need to remove that isolating capability, by having a power feed beyond each point. For example, the fan of sidings in the centre, would each need a feed, as would the small sections of track between point. Remember, and take care, that your red and blue feeds respectively should always be to the same rail. A cheap multimeter is a good investment to check continuity.

That said, recommended good practice when wiring a layout is that every individual piece of track has a feed, thus eradicating the need to rely solely on rail joiners for connectivity around the layout, as these can be unreliable over time. Others will say they enjoy trouble free running without doing that, but I didn’t want to take the risk as I preferred to avoid fault finding and correction later. 
Another piece of recommended good practice is that the track bus is not a full circuit, but should resemble a U, not an O.

 

On a slightly different note, I assume you have access for all round the board, as reach from back to front will be tricky.

(NB. I don’t have access to anything at the moment that I can easily mark feeds on your diagram)

 

Hi ITG,

 

  yes Peco set track, thanks for the tip on keeping the respective feeds on the correct rails - its something I have seen covered on a youtube vid so I will make sure to keep continuity throughout.

 

Thats a good point on the U shaped circuit, I plan on getting a couple terminating blocks for for that - any reconmendations?

 

 

[MikuMatt81]

1 minute ago, ITG said:

I wonder what the sidings on the left side are for? They seem very short, so may be ok if only loco spurs. But anything longer, and by the time you’ve (possibly?) included an uncoupler ramp (on a straight) there wouldn’t be much space, if any.

 

just for a few wagons, and maybe a little water tower  =)

[MikuMatt81]

10 hours ago, meil said:

There is no such thing as +ve or -ve in DCC. You must identify each bus wire as something else - many use J and K.

 

Decide which rail goes to J and which to K then CONSISTENTLY go around the layout connecting each J rail to J and each K to K.

 

You should provide frequent droppers to all track and in-particular to each point.

 

Thanks for the tip, that is a concept I did pick up in the vids I watched, but didnt know how best to label it, so J and K it is!

 

Tommorow I think I will markout my connections on the diagram myself, and share with you all to check over.

[MikuMatt81]

10 hours ago, ITG said:

Another thought. I cannot tell what radius your curves are at each end of the layout, but be aware that many ready-to-run locos do not like radius 1, and manufacturers warn as such. What’s the inner radius track? 

 

The inner most oval is radius 1, the middle oval radius 2, and a mixture of 2 and 3 on the left had run off.

[SimonDCC]

Where you have passing loops, or oval to oval crossings, you will need rail breaks (or insulated joiners).

otherwise you will get a J/K short with some turnout combinations.

Follow the crossings with a finger, you’ll soon see.

Not a problem to wire though - just insulate the rails from the frog and feed the rails beyond separately.

The same applies in sidings if you feed the siding separately from the turnout.

[ITG]

6 minutes ago, MikuMatt81 said:

 

The inner most oval is radius 1, the middle oval radius 2, and a mixture of 2 and 3 on the left had run off.

So are you ok with that? You will need to be selective about which locos you acquire.

[MikuMatt81]

3 minutes ago, SimonDCC said:

Where you have passing loops, or oval to oval crossings, you will need rail breaks (or insulated joiners).

otherwise you will get a J/K short with some turnout combinations.

Follow the crossings with a finger, you’ll soon see.

Not a problem to wire though - just insulate the rails from the frog and feed the rails beyond separately.

The same applies in sidings if you feed the siding separately from the turnout.

 

Thats a top tip thanks, when I markout my wiring plan tommorow I will be sure to include isolation joints there.

[MikuMatt81]

1 minute ago, ITG said:

So are you ok with that? You will need to be selective about which locos you acquire.

 

Whelp, I dont have a lot of space and I need a double oval so itll have to be ok. If I cant run certain locos on the innermost loop its not the end of the world.

 

I am mostly interested in little tank engines and the such, probably start off with a couple of Terriers! =)