Church bells as wagon loads - UK prototype practice?

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

I learnt on a ring of 8. Never broke a stay! 

I did (break a stay).  However having told the band there of my past misdemeanour I was still  given an opportunity to ring on a practice evening in Sheffield cathedral

[The Stationmaster]

Bell is not listed as telegraphic code word in the 1958 edition of the Standard Codes.  That of course doesn't mean that it might or might not have been a code word in earlier years but as 'nonclere' was still in the book that late it suggests that changes didn't exactly move with the times when it came to taking out old code words (Yes, I do know that clerestory roof vehicles were still in departmental use then but I doubt if any were still in wider everyday use)

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

can't see them suspending the bell from the bar

To me it seems a very logical thing to do, because it would protect it from shocks, but I suppose the bar might simply be a sheet rail, although those knees really do suggest that it was loaded.

[Paul H Vigor]

5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I read it as a framework supporting a bar, presumably to which the bells were secured. You can see knee-braces connecting the ends to the bed, so there must have been load on the bar. I’m imagining a bell hung  with its mouth a couple of inches off the deck, surrounded by soft stuff, so that it could move slightly, but not get shocked, then maybe sheeted overall.

 

In fact, doesn’t it have a dropped box in the centre of the deck too? A large bell would dangle into that, surrounded by soft packing, I imagine.

 

It is really for bells, not some other dangly load, is it? It just struck me that ‘bell’ could be the telegraphic code. Toad vans, weren’t designed to carry toads, after all?

 

 

And that's only because Mr Toad had a 'thing' about motorcars! 

[Paul H Vigor]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I did (break a stay).  However having told the band there of my past misdemeanour I was still  given an opportunity to ring on a practice evening in Sheffield cathedral

Breaking a stay allowed the bell to complete it's rotation, thereby carrying one aloft - if one didn't let the 'tail end' go?

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Mikkel said:

The NER seems to have had one:

 

5 hours ago, jwealleans said:

Now I've had time to look, here's the LNER lettering diagram for it:

 

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I also wondered whether it was just a telegraphic code.  But if it is for a bell, would it have been constructed/modified specially  with one particular bell in mind? 

I can't see them suspending the bell from the bar.  If it's  a dropped centre, would that be to accommodate the clapper?  My assumption is that the clapper would be shipped separately.  Or would the bell be sat in it upside down in the well with the (removable?) bar as something to clamp it down - surely two adjustable bars rather than one centrally would make sense. 

 

"Diagram E1 was a 7 ton bell wagon built in 1900 for carrying bell covers for furnaces, glass crates, and similar articles. It had no sides but the 4 ft 5 in high ends supported two adjustable longitudinals which carried the loads which could project below the headstocks into a bell shaped well" [J.B. Dawson et al., North Eastern Record Vol. 2 (HMRS, 1997) p. 86].

 

So not church bells, primarily. I've no idea what shape a furnace bell cover is but the "bell" is possibly more descriptive of the shape of the wagon than its intended payload.

 

All the photos we've been shown of bells, they're standing on their lips rather than being suspended with open mouth to the skies.

[Nearholmer]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I've no idea what shape a furnace bell cover

It’s almost exactly like a bell, but with straight, rather than flared, sides. It fits over a coil of strip steel while it is being annealed.

 

Im sure the load would be hung ‘mouth down’, because both bells and furnace covers have the suspension point at the closed end.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Welchester said:

It looks as though Great George was transported by road.

 

That made me go back to the web pages I'd looked at. Reading more carefully, they do say that the peal was cast by Whitechapel and Great George by Taylors of Loughborough - I note their tart remarks about other foundries contracting out the casting of large bells.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

All but the very largest bells would have been within the gauge limits for carriage by rail, and even the heaviest were within load limits. More pertinent, with the really large bells, may have been the logistics of getting them to and from a railway wagon in the first place. Neither Taylors nor Whitechapel Foundry (before it closed) were rail served, so whatever happened, the bells had to be got onto a road wagon in the first place. Ditto at the other end, as I can't think of any religious (or academic) establishments that had private sidings. There has to come a point where, even allowing for the rather more primitive forms of road vehicle available, it is more economic to get it on a road vehicle and leave it there for the whole journey.

 

I had certainly assumed that any transport from Whitechapel to a London customer would be by road. There were certainly drays or other road vehicles with adequate weight capacity. Put enough horses on and they could go...

 

... like the clappers!

 

(Apologies for the multiple replies. It's what comes of the thread going over the page.)

Edited January 1, 2022 by Compound2632
sp.

[Izzy]

My father used to value visiting other bell practices when he stayed away on business. St Peter Mancroft in Norwich was a favourite and he always felt privileged to be offered the Tenor in Lincoln.

 

Could be rather tiring holding one with a broken stay for a practice session, the heavier ones. Usually it was the lightest ones which learners were put on. For safety as much as anything else. 
 

I can’t really see how a larger type cast church bell would be loaded other than on it’s mouth directly on the floor. They would have to be hauled into the church, up the tower (through central floor hatches at each level - ringing chamber etc), and then fitted to the revolving headstocks in the frame. Adding the clappers would be a small final job (!)….

 

I would guess transporting them by rail/road  to be perhaps just a small part of the overall job in total. The latter entirely past maybe 1920 and the lorry increase after WW1.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Izzy said:

I would guess transporting them by rail/road  to be perhaps just a small part of the overall job in total. The latter entirely past maybe 1920 and the lorry increase after WW1.

 

One of the articles I found stated that demand for church bells peaked in the 1920s and again in the 1950s. In the latter case, restoring war damage. Not bells, but there's a story that the PCC of St Laurence in Reading received a letter from the Diocesan buildings people reprimanding them for removing the pinnacles of the church tower without a Diocesan Faculty. Their reply was that it had been the Luftwaffe's responsibility to make the application.

[Peter Heather]

The bells at Uckfield were cast at Whitechapel in the late 18th century and were taken to London in 1905 to be recast and tuned. Presumably not all of them were recast, as at least two have the original casting date on them, and they were probably just retuned.

 

The assumption is that they were taken back to the Whitechapel foundry, but they could have gone to Gillett & Johnston's foundry in Croydon, who were not only internationally known for bell casting, but they were also responsible for perfecting the art of tuning bells.

 

The firm was in the business of casting and tuning bells until the late 1950s and some of their bells were enormous. One sent to New York weighed 20 tons. The foundry was not rail connected and access for materials in and bells out was via a back street with right angle bends, albeit traffic was virtually non-existent then. In my copy of the book on the history of the company, there are numerous photos of bells being loaded on flat bed lorries, generally sitting on the rims without any obvious ‘padding’, although the very large ones, such as the Freedom Bell for Berlin in 1951, were loaded hanging from their steel headstock.

 

The company still exists, now concentrating on the clock making side of the business, which was just as well known as the bell casting side.

[Welchester]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

One of the articles I found stated that demand for church bells peaked in the 1920s and again in the 1950s. In the latter case, restoring war damage. Not bells, but there's a story that the PCC of St Laurence in Reading received a letter from the Diocesan buildings people reprimanding them for removing the pinnacles of the church tower without a Diocesan Faculty. Their reply was that it had been the Luftwaffe's responsibility to make the application.

 

As a member of a Diocesan Advisory Committee, I can't tell you how funny I found this.

[Steamport Southport]

[Wickham Green too]

On 01/01/2022 at 12:48, Michael Hodgson said:

...... - surely two adjustable bars rather than one centrally would make sense. 

We only have a side elevation - so maybe there are two ??!? ( Where's Mr.Tatlow hiding when you want him ? )

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

We only have a side elevation - so maybe there are two ??!? ( Where's Mr.Tatlow hiding when you want him ? )

 

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

"Diagram E1 was a 7 ton bell wagon built in 1900 for carrying bell covers for furnaces, glass crates, and similar articles. It had no sides but the 4 ft 5 in high ends supported two adjustable longitudinals which carried the loads which could project below the headstocks into a bell shaped well" [J.B. Dawson et al., North Eastern Record Vol. 2 (HMRS, 1997) p. 86].

 

Well, I gave you a verbal description yesterday - two adjustable longitudinal beams. 

 

I'm afraid P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 2: North Eastern Area (Wild Swan, 2007) is somewhat dismissive. Introducing NER pulley wagons, p. 143, he says "As well as the one-off bell wagon...". He gives neither photo nor drawing but lists: load, 7 tons, length 15'0", width 7'4", wheelbase 9'0", timber underframe, built Oct 1900, No. 60779, extant 31 Dec 1926 but gone by 31 Dec 1940. 

[Wickham Green too]

I wonder if the H.M.R.S. / N.E.R.A. rolling stock book has anything further ? - unlikely if Peter Tatlow drew a blank tho' !

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

I wonder if the H.M.R.S. / N.E.R.A. rolling stock book has anything further ? - unlikely if Peter Tatlow drew a blank tho' !

 

If you mean North Eastern Record Vol. 2, then only what I quoted above. If there is another NERA wagon book, lead me to it...

[ColinK]

Interesting idea for a load, might be tempted to have a go.  But what bell code would the signalman ring?

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, ColinK said:

Interesting idea for a load, might be tempted to have a go.  But what bell code would the signalman ring?

 

A different one every time - ringing the changes!