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Locomotives of limited usefulness?


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While heritage railways have low speeds, the trains can be reasonably long (around 7 Mk1s is probably reasonable for the larger lines). Given that many heritage railways have small locos, such as industrials, class 08s, and older or smaller tank engines (Terriers and 14xxs, for example), I'm wondering how common it is for a locomotive's potential to be limited by its top speed, power, or tractive effort. Can this cause headaches for those planning timetables who need to balance the number of passengers that can be carried with ensuring that the railway's locomotives are used effectively? I would be interested to hear from anybody who has experience in these matters about how this balance is struck. Presumably double heading can play a role where its is power or TE rather than speed which present problems.

Thanks in advance for any thought that you are able to offer on this subject.

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You need to decide whether you are thinking about every day running or galas?

Every day running you will need to look at your average income each day from passenger tickets sold, then start deducting hire charge, cost of coal, water and various oils. The aim is to make a profit!

Take your total average daily passenger figures split down to how many passengers each train carries  Then from this figure how many coaches you sensible need. Also the type of coach.

 

If you are talking about a special running day, then you need to use a similar formula. After all there is no profit in running a large pacific with seven coaches if all your passengers can be fitted into three coaches which could be hauled by an industrial.

However a guest loco might bring an increase in passenger figures.

 

Speed does not come into the equation as most heritage railways are limited to 20 to 25 mph. There are a few of the larger heritage railways that have been approved to run at higher speeds.

 

On special occasions some railways have more locos in steam / available than trains including a demonstration freight. In this case the locomotives are rotated around the different trains during the day, with some also being used to double head on some trains and / or bank other trains.

 

Basically a heritage railway is looking to make a profit every time a locomotive turns its wheels for the publics benefits. This also includes photographic charters and drivers experience courses.

 

Gordon A 

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I imagine the opposite is perhaps a more common problem, given the number of large pacifics, black 5s and gwr 460s preserved - locos which certainly weren't intended and are somewhat overpowered to be pulling half a dozen mk 1s along a single track at 15-20mph for 10-15 miles - realistically the trains on a preserved line are closer to those that a class 2 or 3 062t or 262t would've handled in normal service.

 

 

Usually the outcome is that a line's timetable and coaching rakes end up planned around one size of loco and those that don't fit with that end up unused. Any train that runs needs to carry max passengers for its crew, fuel and signalling/timetabling path. Often locos that lines started off with now find themselves only pulled out for special events - how integral is Stepney to running the bluebell now?

 

K1 on the welsh highland caused trouble as it could only take 60% of the load the NGG16s could haul, and the service was designed around them, so it fell out of use and now is at statfold.

 

Likewise Bonnie Dundee at Ravenglass - a good loco, but can only take half of the usual rake of coaches, whereas the rest of the fleet are fairly similar in power. After several years, the outcome was the loco fell out of use and only sees use if it's loaned out elsewhere.

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On an ordinary running day, most of the punters don't care as long as it's steam - an austerity or similar is up to the job and everybody's happy.  One of the problems of special events is that particular locos are advertised or expected to be in steam, and the punters are disappointed if they suffer some difficult-to-fix failure the day before.

 

Not unusual towards the end of the season for some lines to use any loco that's serviceable.

 

Some of the smaller locos can't haul much on lines with steep gradients like the KWVR, and so are only steamed for pre-booked passengers on a limited load, perhaps including older carriages that also don't see much service

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28 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Palmerston now in active use on the Festiniog, was described in the 1970s as being doubtful value.

And I am sure this was true. The 1970s are a little before my time, but I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of times Prince (the same size as Palmerston) was used on an ordinary service train during the 1990s (and I don't recall Palmerston being used at all), not including galas and specials. Prince could haul 6 carriages, and the general view (and, indeed, the practice) was that if you only needed 6 carriages, then there weren't enough passengers to justify a steam locomotive. The timetable was based around this, running fewer trains when there were less people around, and putting a diesel on the more lightly-loaded trains. Although the standard sets were 6 carriages, it was relatively rare for a steam-hauled service not to have at least one extra, and more often than not there would be two. Extra carriages were added or removed for each individual train, depending on expected loadings, and although, where possible, sets would be kept the same throughout the day, locomotives wouldn't pull extra carriages around if there weren't passengers to justify them. Anything over nine carriages required a Double Fairlie. The usual maximum train length was twelve carriages, and double heading of service trains was unusual.

 

I imagine all this is rather different from the standard gauge railways being asked about in this thread.

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2 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

K1 is back on the Welsh Highland, it worked Santa trains. Welsh Pony now in active use on the Festiniog, was described in the 1970s as being doubtful value.

 

It probably wasn't much use when you are trying to run a tourist railway. But now you also have the genuine heritage visitors that want authenticity rather than just a ride on a steam train.

 

That's why the heritage train is so popular with enthusiasts. They normally run daily in the early season using the third set. So if you are looking to travel on the smaller locomotives check the Festipedia website as they often tell you what sets are running.

 

https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/FR_Carriage_Formations

 

Here's the current locomotive fleet and their loads.

 

https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Ffestiniog_Railway_Steam_Locomotive_Availability

 

There also used to be a page with rosters on it for the next few weeks, but it seems to have disappeared a few years ago.

 

 

Jason

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It seems that class 3 or class 4 locos are best suited to typical heritage line work but I think there are potential issues with all locos. Class 2 locos in many cases will be working rather hard with a 7/8 coach train.  For instance the SVR doesn't have much interest in restoring 46443 to steam as it wouldn't be powerful enough for current train weights. They do use the 57xx and 15xx quite a lot and these were designated 4F by BR. They seem to be well on top of their job. I love big freight locos on heritage lines such as the 28xx or the Stanier 8F but there may well be a track or flange wear issue with running eight couples locos on a twisty branch  line. Having said that the 100 year old 2857 has been a stalwart on the SVR for many years and has clocked up a high mileage. From what I have heard the Taw Valley is the most difficult loco to drive up the valley although Sir Keith Park was worse, especially heading North out of Highley on damp rails. The Bullied pacifics are wonderful locos but not the best at getting a train started on a gradient. The pannier tanks almost invariably climb better than the bigger locos. I love it when a Duchess appears on the SVR but I have to accept it does look somewhat out of place because it is rather big for a branch line.

 

The Manors always seemed to be excellent at hauling trains on the SVR and to me they look right on that line. It will be interesting to see how 82045 gets on when she is built; it could well be the ideal loco for a heritage line. The Ivatt 4 and the standard 4 have both given sterling service over the years and are again probably an ideal power/size for a heritage line. I'm told drivers really like 75069 since her last refurb.

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I have not made many heritage railway visits outside the West Country, but of the railways I have visited the most often they have all used eight coupled locos on regular occasions. The West Somerset Railway used 28xx and S&D 7F 2-8-0s. The South Devon Railway have used a 28xx, while the Torbay and Dartmouth line and Bodmin and Wenford use 42xx 2-8-0Ts.

In most cases the 14xx and small pannier tanks from the early preservation era are no longer powerful enough to work services on these lines normal service days,

 

cheers 

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1 hour ago, Chris M said:

It seems that class 3 or class 4 locos are best suited to typical heritage line work but I think there are potential issues with all locos. Class 2 locos in many cases will be working rather hard with a 7/8 coach train.  For instance the SVR doesn't have much interest in restoring 46443 to steam as it wouldn't be powerful enough for current train weights. They do use the 57xx and 15xx quite a lot and these were designated 4F by BR. They seem to be well on top of their job. I love big freight locos on heritage lines such as the 28xx or the Stanier 8F but there may well be a track or flange wear issue with running eight couples locos on a twisty branch  line. Having said that the 100 year old 2857 has been a stalwart on the SVR for many years and has clocked up a high mileage. From what I have heard the Taw Valley is the most difficult loco to drive up the valley although Sir Keith Park was worse, especially heading North out of Highley on damp rails. The Bullied pacifics are wonderful locos but not the best at getting a train started on a gradient. The pannier tanks almost invariably climb better than the bigger locos. I love it when a Duchess appears on the SVR but I have to accept it does look somewhat out of place because it is rather big for a branch line.

 

The Manors always seemed to be excellent at hauling trains on the SVR and to me they look right on that line. It will be interesting to see how 82045 gets on when she is built; it could well be the ideal loco for a heritage line. The Ivatt 4 and the standard 4 have both given sterling service over the years and are again probably an ideal power/size for a heritage line. I'm told drivers really like 75069 since her last refurb.

Its horses for courses. 

The ideal size loco for the Valley is a class 3 - 5. The Christmas operation requires lovos that can regularly handle 9 coaches. Hence why this year the plan was 75 off Bridgnorth with the train in lights and Enchanted express, Taw valley, 43106 and 1501 off the south end for Santas. Unfortunately we have suffered failures resulting in 7714 being dropped in but coaching sets were re shuffled ro bring the weight down but keep the capacity up. 

 

 

46443 is now being mentioned in conversations more and more along with 5164/5764/ 4566/ 47383. We will gain 82034 , cl3. 4150, cl3 - 4, 13268 cl 5mt, 7812 and Hagley hall in the next 18 months - 2 years. We lose 2857/ 1501 and possibly 43106 due to tyre wear this year. The next line if locos are based economies of scale. Coal is getting more expensive. Material and labour prices are only going to keep going up so overhauling the smaller locos makes for better long term outcomes. 

IF a loco owning group have the money to overhaul their loco or at least fund a good proportion of it. Then it will be put into the mix. 

 

Going back to 46443. Its the perfect loco for steam school work, Sunday dining trains and fringes of the season midweek trains when we tend to run 6 coaches. The same applies to 4566 and 47383. The Mickey needs a pretty indepth overhaul this time around having been overworked for the majority of its previous ticket. 

 

 

Swinging away from the SVR. 

Consider the NYMR. Again horses for courses. You wouldnt want to run class 2s and 3s up and down all day as they wouldnt cope with the 6 - 7 coach trains plus the mainline aspect. 

 

The ideal heritage railway loco is, to me the 80xxx std 4s. Economical, easy to prep abd dispose, very easy to work on. The only buggeration is the having to contourt yourself to drive it backwards. If you took that line of thinking. A loco that is economical on coal and water, easy to prep and dispose. Has enough umph to do the larger jobs but is just as content working the smaller jobs. You're hitting on locos like Manors, moguls, 51xx, Even black 5s, S15s, Ivatt mickeys and 43106, 75xxx, 76xxx, 78xxx, 80xxx, 82xxx, 57xx, but dont discount locos like 8fs and 28xx because despite their size and power they can be operated in a very economical manor. Id take an 8f over a 28xx any day but thats personal preferance. 

 

Going right back to the top. Its horses for courses for each railway. Even more so now coal is becoming harder to get and more expensive. Rising material costs. Increasing wage bills as well. 

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2 hours ago, Chris M said:

It seems that class 3 or class 4 locos are best suited to typical heritage line work but I think there are potential issues with all locos. Class 2 locos in many cases will be working rather hard with a 7/8 coach train.  For instance the SVR doesn't have much interest in restoring 46443 to steam as it wouldn't be powerful enough for current train weights. They do use the 57xx and 15xx quite a lot and these were designated 4F by BR. They seem to be well on top of their job. I love big freight locos on heritage lines such as the 28xx or the Stanier 8F but there may well be a track or flange wear issue with running eight couples locos on a twisty branch  line. Having said that the 100 year old 2857 has been a stalwart on the SVR for many years and has clocked up a high mileage. From what I have heard the Taw Valley is the most difficult loco to drive up the valley although Sir Keith Park was worse, especially heading North out of Highley on damp rails. The Bullied pacifics are wonderful locos but not the best at getting a train started on a gradient. The pannier tanks almost invariably climb better than the bigger locos. I love it when a Duchess appears on the SVR but I have to accept it does look somewhat out of place because it is rather big for a branch line.

 

The Manors always seemed to be excellent at hauling trains on the SVR and to me they look right on that line. It will be interesting to see how 82045 gets on when she is built; it could well be the ideal loco for a heritage line. The Ivatt 4 and the standard 4 have both given sterling service over the years and are again probably an ideal power/size for a heritage line. I'm told drivers really like 75069 since her last refurb.

6443 used to take 8, it was that a decision was made to limit train weights on it as it of course led to more wear and tear and interest in restoring something is based on more than the capacity. In the case of this engine it is perfect for Footplate Experiences as it has a large cab, compare that to 1450 that we have also used and it is a world apart. The question of the queue is also based on finance behind the engine for its restoration. In the case of 64, it needs a new tender tank for example. 

 

The panniers are good engines, but 1501 wins it for me as having piston rather than slide valve means you can keep power on when notching up.  In terms of tyre wear the engines are turned to even out that normally, however due to covid have been set to minimise the number of times the fireman needs to go to the drivers side to change tokens. 

 

The other factor is our infrastructure so class 8's have extra limitation's over structures to minimise damage to them, as it the case on some for all engines. In BR days for example Victoria Bridge was a 30mph speed limit. At which you could have rolled all the way up to the station. 

 

The question of SKP and TV depends on which end of the line it is / was being driven from. A Pannier or a Manor for example you can largely set off even from Highley which is on a sharp curve and with the engine standing in a little dip on the 1 in 100 which adds to the fun. With SKP or TV you just have to feel them and understand they have much larger steam circuit's. Personally I found SKP better not having the air brake pedestal in the way and having a regulator with more fell. Some at the south end of the line loath them and personally I feel that then reflects in how they are driven or otherwise.

 

Coming back to the question in hand the size of engine that is best for a line depends on the average train weight, gradients and distances.  On those railways using say 4 or 5 coaches class 2 or 3 engines will do the job admirably. On say the Moors you need at least a class 4 for the gradients and having that extra reserve for the climbs.

 

Industrials were designed for short periods of work so probably for many they just cannot maintain the requirements. Similarly large engines are just to expensive to run. So you may like to see a Duchess, 9f, 8f, West Country, King, Castle etc, but the economic reality is that in todays world its important to use the right size engines to the loads. 

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Your last sentence sums up the operational priorities perfectly.  The SVR and NYMR are two of very few (standard gauge) lines that routinely need large locos to run trains of 7+ coaches, the vast majority run 3-5 coaches.

 

There is sometimes a misconception with enthusiasts that just because a line used to be a main line, it needs large main line engines to operate it now.  It requires considerably less power, unless the line has severe gradients, to maintain 25mph with 6 coaches than it did to run at 60mph with 9 on.  In a similar vein, no preserved lines really need a larger diesel loco than a Hymek.

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On 01/01/2022 at 22:35, Butler Henderson said:

K1 is back on the Welsh Highland, it worked Santa trains. Welsh Pony now in active use on the Festiniog, was described in the 1970s as being doubtful value.


K1 is now usually based at Statfold though and was only back visiting ;) There’s a close association though and I think it remains a FR owned loco on long term loan. 

The England locos are regularly used but not on the full tourist sets, they tend to run on the short heritage train as a historical example and on various gala trains. The main sets are usually hauled by the Fairlies and the big Hunslets. 
 

I know Swanage is ideally suited to the standard 4 tanks and locos like 6695 that used to be based there and the Bulleids are a bit wasteful on fuel on the short sets. One reason to limit loco types is also keeping crews current so Swanage has standardised on the 33 for diesel hauled passenger trains as it’s an ideal size plus historically relevant too. 
 

 

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It's been interesting to see how the Worth Valley is operating now that 43924 has reached the end of its ticket and gone into the shed.

 

This week 41241 and the Taff Vale tank have been double heading the trains that would usually be handled solo by the 4F rather than sticking the S160 on them. The Non-Corridor bogie stock and the Vintage stock seems to be hauled by 78022 when I've seen it.

 

Obviously now at this time of year traffic demands are less than they are during the summer/Christmas period but evidently demand is felt to be sufficient that regular trains need to be big enough to be handled by a Class 4 or two Class 2s.

 

The general impression I get is that most people seem rather sad to see 43924 go out of traffic given how useful it has been and it was used right up until the last possible minute.

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Smaller locos are also good for 'shoulder season' running - i.e. the earlier and later parts of the season when shorter trains can be used. On the Watercress line, a class 4 or 5 is ideal for most services, being able to handle 5-6 over the Alps easily - but the Ivatt 2mt gets plenty of use at times when 3 coach trains can be run - indeed when we first reopened after the 2020 lockdown, 41312 and the Hunslet 'Dave' ran most of the services - being much cheaper to run than the bigger engines. 

 

Another good use for smaller engines in normal times is things like footplate experiences - I know the Bluebell prefer to use locos like the 'P' class for these. 

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