Italian box vans - brake pipe arrangements and buffer beam detail

[Captain Kernow]

In this thread - 

- the question of what two Italian box vans were doing in rural Herefordshire in 1964 was discussed, but sadly no definitive conclusion reached.

 

However, the line they were photographed on (Leominster to Kington) is the prototype for my OO layout 'Bethesda Sidings' and John F (Re6/6) has most kindly modified these Roco vans for 4mm use, by raising the height of the body.

 

As such, I now need to complete the detailing of the buffer beams, to include the correct brake pipes etc and I was hoping that someone might be able to direct me towards some prototype photos, please?

 

Many thanks.

 

 

[jonhall]

This van is preserved

 

https://www.societavenetaferrovie.it/carro-21-83-21-48-963-3-fb-1931-sagoma-inglese/

[Captain Kernow]

49 minutes ago, jonhall said:

This van is preserved

 

https://www.societavenetaferrovie.it/carro-21-83-21-48-963-3-fb-1931-sagoma-inglese/

Thanks, that's very useful.

 

It looks as though the van had both vacuum and air brake pipes, can this be correct?

 

I was under the impression that they would have been air braked only and would have had to have been loose coupled when running on UK lines?

 

[Simon Lee]

Yes that is a through vac pipe. Vac pipes were common, particularly on FS stock into the 80s. Most FS Van's had them and a number of bogie Van's had them.

 

Outside of your area and era, but at Dover, we often had a cobbled together train, of BSK, various loaded Transfesa or Interfrigos plus assorted Van's for brake force as the Interfrigos were piped only and the vac brakes on the Transfesa's were often not working when it came to brake test time.

 

France to a degree  and Spain, particularly was a large scale user of vac brakes, phasing them out around the same time as BR.

[Fat Controller]

6 minutes ago, Simon Lee said:

Yes that is a through vac pipe. Vac pipes were common, particularly on FS stock into the 80s. Most FS Van's had them and a number of bogie Van's had them.

 

Outside of your area and era, but at Dover, we often had a cobbled together train, of BSK, various loaded Transfesa or Interfrigos plus assorted Van's for brake force as the Interfrigos were piped only and the vac brakes on the Transfesa's were often not working when it came to brake test time.

 

France to a degree  and Spain, particularly was a large scale user of vac brakes, phasing them out around the same time as BR.

Spain and Portugal used vac brakes for freight until recent times, though for vehicles like the Transfesa fleet, air-brakes were fitted as well. I believe the 'Blue-Train' container flats were the first not to have vac cylinders. I wasn't aware of the French using vac. brakes, apart from those fitted to wagons intended for transits to Spain and the UK.

What I did find, on a trawl of wagons on a French site, was a cereal hopper which lacked not just automatic brakes (air and vacuum), but any  other form of braking! It wasn't some ancient wreck, either, but a mid-1960s build.

[jonhall]

30 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Thanks, that's very useful.

 

It looks as though the van had both vacuum and air brake pipes, can this be correct?

 

I was under the impression that they would have been air braked only and would have had to have been loose coupled when running on UK lines?

 

 

I would expect them almost all to have been vac through piped, and almost certainly dual braked.

 

I think we are taliking about BR dia E025 which describes the dual braked vans moving to dia E601

 

A diagram book is available on the Barrowmore site

 

Jon

 

[Captain Kernow]

1 minute ago, jonhall said:

 

I would expect them almost all to have been vac through piped, and almost certainly dual braked.

 

I think we are taliking about BR dia E025 which describes the dual braked vans moving to dia E601

 

A diagram book is available on the Barrowmore site

 

Jon

 

Wow! Thank you very much, I really didn't dare to hope for this much detail and the general response from everyone so far.

 

So these wagons would have probably been marshalled in a fitted head, when running in the UK?

 

Also, given that their designation is 'Fruit and Vegetable wagon', this may indicate the reason for a pair of them turning up in rural Herefordshire in 1964?

 

[jonhall]

Actually I've changed my mind, E025 is one with a brake hut, I think E033 is more likely and that is described as air brake vac piped

jon

[jonhall]

3 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Wow! Thank you very much, I really didn't dare to hope for this much detail and the general response from everyone so far.

 

So these wagons would have probably been marshalled in a fitted head, when running in the UK?

 

Also, given that their designation is 'Fruit and Vegetable wagon', this may indicate the reason for a pair of them turning up in rural Herefordshire in 1964?

 

 

Ye to the fitted head. I think we speculated about possible reasons they appeared where they did on the original thread, certainly Fruit and vegetable traffic is most likely, but I suspect anything that fitted is just as likely - from Vespa's to typewriters, but you would have needed quite a lot of either to justify two vans.

 

Jon

[jonhall]

This one at Hull from John Turners flikr

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by jonhall

[jonhall]

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=150916

 

jon

[Fat Controller]

34 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Wow! Thank you very much, I really didn't dare to hope for this much detail and the general response from everyone so far.

 

So these wagons would have probably been marshalled in a fitted head, when running in the UK?

 

Also, given that their designation is 'Fruit and Vegetable wagon', this may indicate the reason for a pair of them turning up in rural Herefordshire in 1964?

 

Hop Traffic? 

[jwealleans]

Now all we need is someone to find a font close enough to that lettering to pass muster and we're all well away.   I have half a dozen of these salted away.

[Re6/6]

6 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Hop Traffic? 

Aah..hadn't thought of that! Perhaps hops aren't grown in Italy.

[5944]

13 hours ago, jwealleans said:

Now all we need is someone to find a font close enough to that lettering to pass muster and we're all well away.   I have half a dozen of these salted away.

https://www.max-model.it/en/model-train-decals-scale-1-87/1149-lettering-uic-rail-freight-wagons-f-and-ff-m52151.html

 

These are ok for later wagons, but not for 1960s ones sadly. 

 

https://www.duegieditricestore.it/kit-ttm/2620-ttm-kit-05-carro-f-con-garitta.html

 

These make up into nice models, and include transfers, but are for plywood bodied wagons rather than planked ones. 

[jwealleans]

It's the text to the right hand end of the wagon I was looking for - a lot of the rest I can make up from the leftovers of the insulated ones I scratchbuilt. 

 

I'm also interested in the decades just before and after the second War, so UIC numbering is out of my scope.

[nanniag]

Hello.

 

If you give me an email I can give you the fonts and all the other details you need to complete the two vans

 

Regards

Antonio 

[jwealleans]

PM sent.

[The Stationmaster]

Right one or two additional  things.  Firstly as 'Continental' vehicles they would be fitted with what BR called Continental Screw couplings which were longer than BR screw couplings so couplings not in use had to be hung on the hook below the drawbar (that Instruction was only issued in 1962).

 

The vehicles at Pembridge show standard UIC brake markings which don;'t indicate what type of brake they have but do indicate something else.  In their case they have on the corner of the body the marking showing a white horizontal bar above a bar with a downward chevron incorporated as part of it - these markings are  visible on the photos linked by JonHall, especially the third one - that meant that they were fitted with a Goods/Passenger changeover lever somewhere just below the solebar.  Other solebar markings are possible such as the Loaded/Empty changeover lever markings  (doesn't seem to be present on the Pembridge wagons) and the Plains/Mountains changeover handle.

 

As far as body markings are concerned the vans would require the RIV marking indicating they are suitable for international running and the anchor symbol indicating they have tie-down 'eyes' for securing on ferry vessels)