Crimson lake paint.

[mswjr]

I need to buy some Crimson red paint , I am about to paint a LMS compound loco,  My next loco is a Midland railway single loco, Now i am asking this question because the paint and paint thinners with the post is very expensive, So can anyone tell me is the midland red very different from the LMS red,  If not then i only have to buy one tin. 

Thankyou

Garry

[Steamport Southport]

Pretty much. ISTR the main difference was the amount of varnish used afterwards would have made the MR locomotives glossier.

 

There's a photo somewhere of MR 1000 at an exhibition in the 1960s next to a Duchess in BR Red livery (maybe 46256 SWS) and they are exactly the same colour. There's also the fact that 1000 often accompanied 5690 Leander on the mainline and I can't recall any difference between them.

 

I've never heard anyone say that any of those locomotives are/were the wrong colour.

 

 

 

Jason

[hmrspaul]

David Jenkinson would tell anyone whom would listen, and at some length, that MR, LMS and BR 'maroon' were identical. It was only the depth of colour given by the numerous coats and rubbing down that made them have some difference in appearance. The LMS and BR couldn't afford anything like the work that the MR put into finishing the locos. 

 

Paul Bartlett

[mswjr]

Thankyou, Just the job.

[Bernard Lamb]

AFAIK the paint was made by a company called Masons.

They supplied the same formula to both companies.

As others have said the finishing accounted for any difference.

Bernard

[Phil Traxson]

18 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

AFAIK the paint was made by a company called Masons.

They supplied the same formula to both companies.

As others have said the finishing accounted for any difference.

Bernard

Just out of interest. When I was living in Derby and a volunteer on the Festiniog railway, at a time when the FR were painting their coaches maroon, I picked up paint from Masons for them (saved delivery charges) and the old chap behind the trade counter volunteered the info that this also was the same pigment /colour mix that had been used from year dot for Midland/LMS/BR maroon. Only his word for it, but he had been there all his working life and not just as a storeman.  Also picked up paint for Blanche on the 1990/93 (RicketRescue) rebuild, reckon it had to be the right green as by coincidence it's Masons code was the same as Blanche's Hunslet build number!!

Edited January 5, 2022 by Phil Traxson

[asmay2002]

The thing that does make a difference to the final colour is the colour of the undercoat (even on models).  The MR used purple brown undercoat.

[Phil Traxson]

Definitely agree there Andy. By way of experiment whilst trying to find a Halfords rattle can colour to match fairly well with Festiniog Railway Purple Brown I cut pieces of plastic  about 40mm square. Painted each with a different colour primer. Grey, red oxide, white, yellow and left one plain black, then glued them onto a board so they all got the same treatment and sprayed them with the chosen colour, two coats with a couple of hours gap between coats. Result was 5  visibly different shades, to me that was point proven, and it enabled me to use the right primer to get the colour I wanted. Of course this was only to my eyes, someone else may have seen it differently.

 

Phil T.

[Steamport Southport]

I don't know whether they still do, as I haven't bought Halford paint for a while, but they used to tell you on the can what colour primer to use to get the correct shade.

 

 

 

Jason

[Butler Henderson]

Wonders what then is the difference in Precision P777 FR Coach Cherry, P350 MR Crimson and P30 LMS Crimson Lake, and is Humbrol 20 just as appropriate.

[Steamport Southport]

I can say the Humbrol 20 Crimson is spot on for the old Humbrol Authentic Railway Colour LMS Crimson from back in the day.

 

Bought a tin recently and it matches the old tin perfectly. The 98 Chocolate and 103 Cream also match the old tins, as I bought tins of those as well to test.

 

Can't vouch for any of the others though as I planned on trying the Brunswick Green but they were out of stock at the time.

 

 

Jason

 

[ngtrains.com]

19 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

P777 FR Coach Cherry

If only it were simple…..

 

the FR Maroon of the preservation era has come from different sources. Originally, the paint came from Masons in Derby and was rebadged LMS Maroon mix, allegedly because Garraway was an LNER man and wouldn’t entertain an LMS label. Like Phil, as a Derby based FR volunteer, I more than once collected paint from Masons to take over to Wales. This paint was brush painted.

 

in the late 80’s early 90’s we started spray painting in a determined effort to catch up with carriage painting. The spray version if the paint was a bit redder, a bit more cherry, and was actually labelled Mercedes Red.

 

Now we’re back to brush painting. Masons closed and the goodwill, and theoretically the colour matches, transferred to Williamson’s.

 

Then again you only have to look at a ten coach rake to see ten variations of the colour due to the age of each coaches paint job.

[Butler Henderson]

Thats probably why Precision list a FR Coach Cherry and a FR Coach Red although as to which period which one relates is unclear. Invested in a Humbrol 20 this morning (labelled as £2.20 but £1.80 at the till) for my early 70s FR rake as it it gets assembled. Might repaint my Peco green/white 4 wheelers as I understand a number of those were the first vehicles to be repainted although I have yet to establish which ones with regard to the Peco offerings.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Butler Henderson

[DCB]

On 03/01/2022 at 16:36, Steamport Southport said:

Pretty much. ISTR the main difference was the amount of varnish used afterwards would have made the MR locomotives glossier.

 

There's a photo somewhere of MR 1000 at an exhibition in the 1960s next to a Duchess in BR Red livery (maybe 46256 SWS) and they are exactly the same colour. There's also the fact that 1000 often accompanied 5690 Leander on the mainline and I can't recall any difference between them.

 

I've never heard anyone say that any of those locomotives are/were the wrong colour.

Jason

The thing is the MR Compound would have been painted in Red by the LMS or maybe BR when preserved. Very unlikely to have been done in the Pre WW1 Midland way.   The MSWJR used the same techniques and wasted weeks painting locos in a paint shop when the GW just whacked green paint on in the erecting shop while the fitters were bodging the locos back together.  Stanier found a collection of MR locos set aside for preservation at Derby and very sensibly scrapped them except the spinner.  But thing is its the preparation, number and hiue of undercoats and the varnish applied which affects the colour.  Even then as every red car owner knows it fades like fury and changes colour with the sunlight of lack thereof.   Might be easier to paint it black.  

[Bernard Lamb]

On 09/01/2022 at 14:08, ngtrains.com said:

If only it were simple…..

 

Masons closed and the goodwill, and theoretically the colour matches, transferred to Williamson’s.

 

 

Too true.

Then we come down to the difference between oil based and water based, air drying and stove enamelling, wet and powder. That is before you start to consider gloss levels. 

 

A pity Masons went the way of most good things.

I used them a lot when a client required a very close match.

There was a company called Parcel Line who had a particular shade of green as their corporate colour.

Masons were the only people who could match it.

Bernard