third rail

[GONK43]

Hello All

New to this forum, so if my question is in wrong area, apologies.

I need some info and pictures of third rail lineside equipment. Anything like isolation switches, relays and general cabling of third rail etc.

Already found clag.org.uk, which is quite useful. Any publication will also help here. Great putting in a third rail, but needs detail to bring it to life.

Era BR Blue/grey. Thanks for all help provided.

Gonk43

[ISW]

49 minutes ago, GONK43 said:

Already found clag.org.uk, which is quite useful. Any publication will also help here. Great putting in a third rail, but needs detail to bring it to life.

Era BR Blue/grey. Thanks for all help provided.

Plenty of books to choose from. I have "Southern Electric, Volume 2" (David Brown) and "Southern Electric Album" (Alan Williams) that includes plenty of photos. However, I'd imagine that if you placed the third rail to the correct layout (especially at turnouts / crossovers), with the requisite overlaps and jumper cables, it'd look very good. Don't forget to add the timber 'protection' boards either side in platform / crossover areas.

 

Do you plan to install proper 'side approach ramps' at turnouts to add to the realism?

 

Ian

[GONK43]

Thanks ISW, most helpful. Already have protection boards in mind. Also in use in sidings and yards yes?

Regards

Gonk43

[ISW]

5 hours ago, GONK43 said:

Thanks ISW, most helpful. Already have protection boards in mind. Also in use in sidings and yards yes?

Regards

Gonk43

Gonk43,

 

I'm not sure what the Rules are regarding where BR fitted protection boards on third rail. In platforms they seem to be installed in terminating platforms, but not through platforms (because of coupling / uncoupling, watering, maintenance?).

 

I'd put protection boards in MPDs where there are footpaths, but not everywhere.

 

In sidings, again, I'd be putting protection boards only where there is constant access by way of footpaths or cinder paths between tracks; ie: where access is needed for coupling / uncoupling, watering, etc.

 

If you can, find photographs of the area you are modelling, or somewhere 'equivalent' to it.

 

Ian

[GONK43]

Ta Ian

Yep doing research now.

Love your avatar of the peak. Alot of my locos are class 45 and 44`s. Just recently put sound in them too.

Regards

Gonk43

[kipford]

Gonk43

You have already found the CLAG document which is pretty much the bible for setting things out. Books as Ian says are a good source, but expensive if you only a few photos are useful, I do not think the actual style of cabling, ducting, protection boards has changed much over the last few decades, so site visits are a cheap way of getting detail, then of course Google is your friend. I used all three sources when I did Brighton East. Is this what you are aiming at? With the exception of the people and the signal container, all the rest is pretty timeless.

 

[ISW]

44 minutes ago, kipford said:

 

Dave,

 

No side approach ramps, or did they 'bite the dust' during some BR design rationalisation?

 

Ian

[phil-b259]

23 minutes ago, ISW said:

Dave,

 

No side approach ramps, or did they 'bite the dust' during some BR design rationalisation?

 

Ian

 

Side ramps are not compatible with all track equipment (e.g. clamp lock point operating equipment) or speeds grater than 20mph.

 

Furthermore, as with signalling department, the conductor rail department (ETE) do like to spend unnecessarily - fitment will based on need (i.e. the probability of a train being 'gapped') rather than making things look pretty

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by phil-b259

[ISW]

1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

Side ramps are not compatible with all track equipment (e.g. clamp lock point operating equipment) or speeds grater than 20mph.

Phil,

 

Thanks for the explanation. I only asked because such ramps were specified for Singapore Metro Phase 1 (back in 1985) where I was working for the Contractor. Except that this was an under running third rail. We tried umpteen times to get the design to work, but in the end proved that the movement of the collector shoe was such that we couldn't design a side-approach ramp that was inside the envelope provided and always 'collect' the shoe. In the end the Client accepted our explanation / calculations and we 'made do' with gaps at all turnouts.

 

Ian

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, kipford said:

Gonk43

You have already found the CLAG document which is pretty much the bible for setting things out. Books as Ian says are a good source, but expensive if you only a few photos are useful, I do not think the actual style of cabling, ducting, protection boards has changed much over the last few decades, so site visits are a cheap way of getting detail, then of course Google is your friend. I used all three sources when I did Brighton East. Is this what you are aiming at? With the exception of the people and the signal container, all the rest is pretty timeless.

 

 

You do realise you have 2 out of the 4 HW point machines mounted the wrong way round!

 

The detector and drive rods always come out of the same set of openings - they merely flip from side to side depending on whether the machine is mounted on the right or left of the point with the raised section always pointing towards the divergence (or 'heal' of the points as we call it).

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

6 minutes ago, ISW said:

Phil,

 

Thanks for the explanation. I only asked because such ramps were specified for Singapore Metro Phase 1 (back in 1985) where I was working for the Contractor. Except that this was an under running third rail. We tried umpteen times to get the design to work, but in the end proved that the movement of the collector shoe was such that we couldn't design a side-approach ramp that was inside the envelope provided and always 'collect' the shoe. In the end the Client accepted our explanation / calculations and we 'made do' with gaps at all turnouts.

 

Ian

 

It should be noted that ramps are still installed in the UK where deemed necessary - but with the move to higher speed crossovers over past decades you are only really likely to encounter them at termini, sidings and certain junctions with slow speed divergences.

[kipford]

Phil

Thanks for that you learn something new everyday. It is easy to fix becauses the machines are not fixed down to allow access to the operating cranks for the points are underneath them.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, kipford said:

Phil

Thanks for that you learn something new everyday. It is easy to fix becauses the machines are not fixed down to allow access to the operating cranks for the points are underneath them.

 

The machines are very much fixed down! In fact one of the common causes of point failures is the fixing bolts becoming lose (mainly due to rotting timbers in my experience) and the machine kicking out as the points move across thus causing the electrical contacts inside to not make up correctly and thus not give the signaller detection.

 

If you examine the photo I posted what you will see is that first two sleepers are much longer and extend under the machine. The machine is then bolted to these sleepers via lugs which extend from the machine casting.

 

Also, don't be confused by the first sleeper in the photo -  has a metal strip (known as the 'sole plate' on it that helps keep everything square and inline. The problem is that with a maximum of only 3.5mm of tolerance permitted between the point detection being obtained or not failing such plates are enough to hold the machine square if its fixing bolts are not tight.

 

There are no 'cranks under the machine' either the conversion from rotary movement and necessary gearing etc is all done inside the machine with the driver rod moving back and forth from the middle slot in the machine. If cranks are needed that will be to do with the backdrive (which helps push the rear / heal of the points across on long turnouts) they will be driven off the moving rails by a connection to the front stretcher bar - and have no direct connection to the machine.

 

If unsure,  type HW1000 or HW2000 into your search engine and you will see plenty of images to help.

[kipford]

Phil

Great explanation. By the way, in 30 odd exhibitions you are the only person who has noticed it. As they are a loose item and only put in place when the layout is erected I will have to remember to get them round the right way! 

 

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, kipford said:

Phil

Great explanation. By the way, in 30 odd exhibitions you are the only person who has noticed it. As they are a loose item and only put in place when the layout is erected I will have to remember to get them round the right way! 

 

 

Well two decades on the mainline with the S&T does tend to help

 

At least you avoided the common mistake of putting the sticking out bits at the side (which are actually removable covers for the drive and detector rods that run between the sleepers) over the sleepers!

[GONK43]

Great replys

Thanks kipford, that is what i am aiming at. That is looking similar to what i am doing at the moment.

Looks great that . Doing OK actually.

Now, something is puzzling me.

Generally, in schematic form, do point motor cabling go direct to the signal box, or does the cabling have to go through a relay box? Anyone know please?

i.e cable from signal box - to point motor or

     cable from signal box - to relay box - to point motor.

Thanks for any help provided.

I tell you what, our hobby has some really talented individuals who amaze me with the level of modelling detail they achieve.

Regards

gonk43

[woodyfox]

One thing that i believe is unique to 3rd rail (not sure about overhead) is the 'spider' box between the running rails at block joints. I believe the official name is an impedence bond. They allow the negative return current to flow but not the signal current in tcb areas. But its been a while since i worked on electrified lines. 

Cheers 

Stu