Hornby 2022 - Diesel/Electric Range

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

2 hours ago, TomScrut said:

The annoying thing is I almost ordered another 4 from there on a different order straight after but didn't want to pay postage twice! Given they had 10% off and everywhere else doesn't seem to, I would have been better off just biting the bullet.

 

I wonder if Hornby have underestimated how many people are interested in these?

 

I think Hornby know exactly what they are doing with these,the Hattons ones are hens teeth or gold pressed latinum to buy of anyone and this tier dealer system is a bit naughty as the desired dealers will i guess have there favorites to sell them too,and i guess these are copyrighted so no one else will be doing them,not that it bothers Hornby who has what it seems.

Edited January 11, 2022 by ERIC ALLTORQUE

[Scottish-Exile]

Like others, I tried a number of model shops today to seek the Drax wagons. Feedback from all is that their allocation is sold out and they only had a few to start with.

 

I just can't understand Hornby's business model of producing an item, but only making it available to a very few (Tier 1) retailers and even then, in such limited quantities that there's nowhere near enough to satisfy demand. Surely this just backfires on everyone?. Modellers left disappointed, stores taking the flack and Hornby letting everyone down.

 

Obviously we've seen the announcement live yesterday thanks to RMWeb, but for those who'll learn of the new range via the monthly magazines, then to be hit with "it's all sold out" will just leave a bad taste. 

 

How can an item be sold out on the day of the announcement?. It's not like some supergroup selling out Wembley within 10 minutes of tickets going on sale.

 

I'll just have to count myself lucky with the original Hornby Drax wagons I have (Hattons release) and the forthcoming Acurascale release.

[scouse889]

9 minutes ago, Scottish-Exile said:

It's not like some supergroup selling out Wembley within 10 minutes of tickets going on sale.

 

I never could get a ticket to see Drax and The Biomass Wagons when they performed at Wembley.

[JohnR]

I dont have a problem with Hornby having made these wagons a "Tier 1 exclusive" - just as they and others have had exclusives for other shops, or areas (think of the regional 47s Bachmann did a few years back?). 

 

The problems are a) not enough have been allocated to cope with demand and b) no one knows for sure who is and isnt a "Tier 1 retailer".

[ruggedpeak]

12 minutes ago, Scottish-Exile said:

Like others, I tried a number of model shops today to seek the Drax wagons. Feedback from all is that their allocation is sold out and they only had a few to start with.

 

I just can't understand Hornby's business model of producing an item, but only making it available to a very few (Tier 1) retailers and even then, in such limited quantities that there's nowhere near enough to satisfy demand. Surely this just backfires on everyone?. Modellers left disappointed, stores taking the flack and Hornby letting everyone down.

 

Obviously we've seen the announcement live yesterday thanks to RMWeb, but for those who'll learn of the new range via the monthly magazines, then to be hit with "it's all sold out" will just leave a bad taste. 

 

How can an item be sold out on the day of the announcement?. It's not like some supergroup selling out Wembley within 10 minutes of tickets going on sale.

 

I'll just have to count myself lucky with the original Hornby Drax wagons I have (Hattons release) and the forthcoming Acurascale release.

It doesn't backfire for Hornby, they sell the entire allocation quickly before production, demand and interest spikes, normal punters get to buy them on Ebay for a mark up Everyone wins. Sort of. Not. And at least some retailers are getting a slice of the action, not everyone sells their trains via retailers......

 

No different to what major trainer brands with limited edition trainers etc where there are people who earn a living accessing these before anyone else then selling them on to gullible punters who feel they have to have a trainer that is slightly different from the last lot even though they will never wear them.

 

All about marketing and building desire etc. Hornby know full well many of the people wanting Drax wagons will want a trainload, so this way allows them to release some more next year as well and not using up loads of production slots producing sufficient wagons for all the demand. Look at the DRS coaches, they sold out pretty quick last time around, now there is another batch. Treat em mean and keep em keen!

[NXEA!]

My local shop Great Eastern Models is a Tier 1 retailer, so might be worth giving them a bell for Drax wagons etc. No connection, just a customer passing on some information. 
 

I received a newsletter from Derails earlier today and as has been said, allocations have been cut across the board now to just a handful of items per models, and other things like TPE and GWR 802’s are sold out already. Definitely a tactic to direct people to the Hornby website for sureness of supply IMO, and as a hard-nosed business tactic it will work, as it guarantees greater income at full RRP. 

[stonojnr]

13 hours ago, surfsup said:

 

Regarding the FLIRT and Anglian based models, I don't think it would take much for Hornby to produce the GA Mk3 + DVTs. The RCS branded versions were due to be produced as part of the LSL collection last year (admittedly using the old tooling) but they'll have the artwork. The did of course previously produce a Greater Anglia 153 - Perfect for the transition period if you can get your hands on one. They really are as rare as white rocking horse doo now (admittedly I converted mine to become 153305). 

 

that was my feeling for why I thought FLIRTs were unlikely from Hornby,as Hornby have had the Mk3s, the DVTs and even an aborted 90 in AGA livery from 2016, ready to go, and yet have sat on them for years and done nothing with them.

 

so what were the chances of them making  brand new mouldings for a region they tend to overlook, because I was told many years back it never sells well, & for something that isnt what most model enthusiasts would consider a core national class, ie seen in their East Coast/West Coast/western regions, & a modern unit at that,it seemed well just not going to happen...especially as its that awkward consist of multiple unit rolling stock which makes it expensive as a pack, but you cant really break it down & sell it in pieces.

 

I thought Bachmann were most likely to have a go as they have had a track record of modern units, and covered Anglia liveries in the past, even if they seem to be ignoring it with their class 90s so far, and we will have to see how far their 47s get.

 

but when you think of all the lower risk Anglia models Hornby could have done just as an easy gimme something to keep interest going, maybe the reaction to things like the APT has given them the confidence to try something different for a change thats a bit more quirky, as its certainly interesting seeing peoples reactions who arent necessarily interested in modelling an Anglia setup  at all, but still like the idea of including a FLIRT on their layouts, Im certainly not complaining

 

[ruggedpeak]

But if the shambles of managing rolling stock and franchises continues FLIRTS may not be limited to Anglia. Whilst the 90/DVT sets needed replacing, as did some of the DMU's the GA 321's had had upgrades and there was nothing wrong with the 360's. Yet in order to secure the franchise GA promised to replace every single piece of rolling stock, even though pre-pandemic passenger growth was already stalling as home working became more prevalent. A new quasi nationalised rail system could easily start shifting things around with more liveries etc as FLIRTs are moved around the country.

[Geep7]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

I think Hornby need to focus on their strengths and target market which probably isn't the most detailed end of the market. There cant be many kids pestering their parents for a £200 Hush-Hush

Exactly this. My 11 yr-old nephew loves the IET (and anything modern GWR) and has been on about wanting one for ages..... With a Hornby IET now costing £500+, and the Kato 'N' scale one just under £200, guess which one Santa bought him for Christmas.....

[faa77]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

I cant help thinking that Hornby are taking on too much trying to cover everything from pre-school kids to the finest detail for scale modellers to keep everyone happy. Their target market has to be mass market, its a recognisable name to the vast majority of the general population. I applaud them for trying to stay relevant as an introduction to the model railway world for the next generation, and producing items that kids will see on the real railway like FLIRTs, Class 800s and freight 66s, but I cant help questioning whether their models will achieve that aim in the £300-£500 range for units.

 

If they can produce Class 110 centre coaches at £25 (the difference between the 2 car and 3 car releases, obviously more if motorised) then how have we gotten to £100+ per coach including trailers for modern units and prices continually rising. Presumably the Class 110 tools and development costs are long-since written off which need to be included for new models, but could the costs be spread better over much higher production quantities? How many train sets could get sold from supermarket shelves rather than model shops? I'd suggest none at £300+, but if that could come down to £150 maybe (even reducing to 3 coaches with an available extension pack too)? The IET is perhaps a missed opportunity with the tooling done as its probably the only nationwide 'express' train that would be recognisable to kids everywhere since HSTs. FLIRTs wouldn't have that appeal. 'Design clever' flopped, but was too much of a song and dance made about that and perhaps the wrong subjects? If it had been applied to modern units instead, could it have given a better outcome for Hornby?

 

I think Hornby should drop the games and underhand tactics in trying to defend their catalogue from competition by bully boy tactics to play to their strengths. I think their long term approach of having a tooling (to defend) that they can churn out a release or two every couple of years for decades for something like a Class 31 is ridiculous. That class has quite a span of operation and liveries and details that perhaps Hornby struggle to reach the production quantities it needs. Perhaps that should be left for top spec to the more agile competition who can get the details spot on and gain pre-orders for smaller production runs co-ordinated into a larger run. The market has changed in buyers will want more options quicker rather than waiting for decades. We still haven't had a Class 31/4 in BR Blue in nearly 20 years of production from the tooling - does that make any sense???

 

I think Hornby need to focus on their strengths and target market which probably isn't the most detailed end of the market. There cant be many kids pestering their parents for a £200 Hush-Hush

 

I really don't see how there can be a future for this hobby, given the prices. Most young people can't even buy cars without credit, let alone a £300 plastic model.

 

It wouldn't be so bad if they were diecast

[faa77]

40 minutes ago, JohnR said:

The problems are a) not enough have been allocated to cope with demand

 

This is what I just don't get. Surely the more-produced, the more they can spread the fixed costs (design etc) over?

 

Then the model ends up on Ebay and goes for silly amounts.

[JohnR]

6 minutes ago, faa77 said:

 

This is what I just don't get. Surely the more-produced, the more they can spread the fixed costs (design etc) over?

 

Then the model ends up on Ebay and goes for silly amounts.

 

My understanding of the original production for Drax was that the high cost (£80 each?) was necessary to cover the tooling costs over a much shorter than normal run. So presumably those costs are either covered, or mostly covered. At this point, the only cost is the actual production cost, surely? So why not produce more? 

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

I cant help thinking that Hornby are taking on too much trying to cover everything from pre-school kids to the finest detail for scale modellers to keep everyone happy.

 

That is something I mentioned in the pre announcement froth thread, I expect a lot of the stuff aimed at kids/Christmas etc. tie cash up for a long time.

 

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

I applaud them for trying to stay relevant as an introduction to the model railway world for the next generation, and producing items that kids will see on the real railway like FLIRTs, Class 800s and freight 66s, but I cant help questioning whether their models will achieve that aim in the £300-£500 range for units.

 

With the exception of the 66, I don't think the stuff you list is aimed at kids at all. There are plenty of us adults who like the present day railway and the stock it has. By the end of this year I will hopefully have 4 or 5 80Xs, given my main interest is ECML it would be ridiculous to ignore them.

[newbryford]

4 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

My understanding of the original production for Drax was that the high cost (£80 each?) was necessary to cover the tooling costs over a much shorter than normal run. So presumably those costs are either covered, or mostly covered. At this point, the only cost is the actual production cost, surely? So why not produce more? 

 

And IIRC, to cover a number of freebie ones given out for publicity.

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, Scottish-Exile said:

I just can't understand Hornby's business model of producing an item, but only making it available to a very few (Tier 1) retailers and even then, in such limited quantities that there's nowhere near enough to satisfy demand. Surely this just backfires on everyone?. Modellers left disappointed, stores taking the flack and Hornby letting everyone down.

 

It is probably one of those things where they have done an announcement to see how the land lies (given there is a few people such as myself who witter on about wanting a rerun of these pretty much every year), and then when the dealers tell them they could have sold their allocation 3 times over they will increase the run, so more variants or do a load more next year. One thing Hornby don't tend to be afraid of is when stuff flies off the shelves they often do another run even if it risks sitting around for a while. I think there must be a billionaire somewhere with a basement full of LNER mk3s given we are on run 3 now with hardly any power cars to go with them.

 

Whilst it isn't good news for me I do think I have now found all the Drax wagons I want.

[TomScrut]

16 minutes ago, faa77 said:

 

This is what I just don't get. Surely the more-produced, the more they can spread the fixed costs (design etc) over?

 

Then the model ends up on Ebay and goes for silly amounts.

 

The thing with these wagons is that as far as I am aware the orignal ones were a commission from Drax. Therefore there are a few things that differ from the norm.

 

1. The tooling was probably paid for in the first run, so in this case I don't think design costs are an issue other than those associated with the new liveries, which will probably be a vinyl.

2. The retailed wagons from first run may have also contributed towards or paid for the ones Drax gave out

3. If the tooling was done with the intention of doing one run, we do not know the level of quality of the tooling and therefore how many pulls it is good for.

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, Scottish-Exile said:

 

I just can't understand Hornby's business model of producing an item, but only making it available to a very few (Tier 1) retailers and even then, in such limited quantities that there's nowhere near enough to satisfy demand. Surely this just backfires on everyone?. Modellers left disappointed, stores taking the flack and Hornby letting everyone down.

 

It's bonkers, and could be 'easily' fixed by announcing new models before the production quantities are fixed. Everybody wins. But that would mean Hornby moving away from their 1960s style 'big bang' January announcements, which for whatever bizzare reason they seem unwilling to do.

[XChris]

36 minutes ago, stonojnr said:

 

that was my feeling for why I thought FLIRTs were unlikely from Hornby,as Hornby have had the Mk3s, the DVTs and even an aborted 90 in AGA livery from 2016, ready to go, and yet have sat on them for years and done nothing with them.

 

 

Very surprised that Hornby didn't use there 90 tooling and the DVT tooling and the paint scheme from the rcs stock to do a complete anglia set. Because they seem to be in the mood to do complete sets. With the look of the HST's and the 91's, 802's etc. Seems a bit of a no brainer but maybe next year for those east anglia modellers. I don't think Bachmann will be too far off doing Mk2F's in anglia turquoise tbh. 

[newbryford]

1 minute ago, TomScrut said:

 

The thing with these wagons is that as far as I am aware the orignal ones were a commission from Drax. Therefore there are a few things that differ from the norm.

 

1. The tooling was probably paid for in the first run, so in this case I don't think design costs are an issue other than those associated with the new liveries, which will probably be a vinyl.

2. The retailed wagons from first run may have also contributed towards or paid for the ones Drax gave out

3. If the tooling was done with the intention of doing one run, we do not know the level of quality of the tooling and therefore how many pulls it is good for.

 

 I hope they've improved the running of them for this batch. I had my hands on a couple of the original models for a spin on NB. They were horrendously light and would derail at the slightest hint.

 

 

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I have had word back from Kernow on the Drax wagons. They sold their allocation, apparently they didn't get chance of many themselves.

 

The thing is, who else actually is selling them? Unless they have all sold out via phone/walk in everywhere else (I haven't seen them for sale with anyone else online).

I just spoke with another retailer, it seems he feels the quantity made is very low, think limited edition loco quantities, given how few Tier 1 retailers (alone) are being allocated.

 

I’m still scrabbling around to make up my rake.

If (speculation) this is in the 500-750 range, and people like myself are trying to make a 12 car train.. (500 or 750*2)/12 doesnt go very far… around 80-120 people.

I’d suspect a minimum viable train to be around 6 wagons.. thats still only 160-240 people… 

i’m sure theres many more than that wanting these.

 

The fear here is very few get a good length train, we all end up with short formations of 2 wagons, and a whole bunch of ebay horse trading follows as people give up / cash out.

 

I cant help but think a bit of ringing around retailers, could have helped Hornby size demand a bit better, given how limited experience Hornby (imo) has in modern post 2000 era wagons, and how much better other retailers are doing with competitors wagons of the same era.

 

 

[G-BOAF]

I'm amazed at the Drax wagons - they were £80 when commissioned (retailed by Hattons) and now £50 for a pair....! what a bargain... If you can get hold of a pack!

 

Just pre-ordered BBMF from Kernow.... I wanted a new 91, and am second-guessing that this will be one of the ones to be preserved. I'm hoping survivors will include 31 (last built), 10 (fastest) and possibly 01 (first) and 11 (memorial), and 19 (intercity livery). I will stick my neck out and say that assuming 31 or 10 goes to the NRM, one or more of the others will likely to to LSL at Crewe (or potentially 31 to Crewe Heritage as last Crewe-built loco???)

[newbryford]

1 minute ago, G-BOAF said:

I'm amazed at the Drax wagons - they were £80 when commissioned (retailed by Hattons) and now £50 for a pair....! what a bargain... If you can get hold of a pack!

 

 

 

£50 for a single wagon as per previous posts.

 

[G-BOAF]

2 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

£50 for a single wagon as per previous posts.

 

Ah, didn't see that.

And VERY not clear from the Hornby announcement!

 

EDIT - I see now - the catalogue image shows both sides of the vehicle, rather than a pack of two vehicles....

Edited January 11, 2022 by G-BOAF

[Coryton]

6 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I cant help but think a bit of ringing around retailers, could have helped Hornby size demand a bit better, given how limited experience Hornby (imo) has in modern post 2000 era wagons, and how much better other retailers are doing with competitors wagons of the same era.

 

 

For some reason the tune from the Yellow Pages advert is going round my head. "Do you want to sell any R186 signal boxes? You do? How many do you want?"

 

1 hour ago, NXEA! said:

I received a newsletter from Derails earlier today and as has been said, allocations have been cut across the board now to just a handful of items per models, and other things like TPE and GWR 802’s are sold out already. Definitely a tactic to direct people to the Hornby website for sureness of supply IMO, and as a hard-nosed business tactic it will work, as it guarantees greater income at full RRP. 

 

Are the "tier 1" only models also available directly from Hornby? I couldn't find the biomass wagons on their web site. 

 

1 hour ago, Scottish-Exile said:

Obviously we've seen the announcement live yesterday thanks to RMWeb, but for those who'll learn of the new range via the monthly magazines, then to be hit with "it's all sold out" will just leave a bad taste. 

 

Although my Railway Modeller hit the doormat yesterday complete with a section on the Hornby 2022 range, which I thought was impressive timing. 

[WILLIAM]

Drax Biomass Hoppers available to pre-order now at 'Model Railways Direct'.

 

No connection just trying to help those looking.