Hornby 2022 - Diesel/Electric Range

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

How many of us are buying supermarkets own brand products?

 

Tesco have three versions of own label/brand!

In model railways I suspect very few care who’s brand is on the box, if whats in the box is unique to the box and no other box maker.

 

I cant buy 3/4’s of the models I do, from any other vendor as most of the time its them, or nothing.

Edited January 12, 2022 by adb968008

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, Markwj said:

The cynic in me was wondering who else is working on the class 110 for Hornby to drag out that old tooling and also why no class 142's following the realtrack announcement but to be fair as well they have generated a bit of interest due to their withdrawal and retirement to some other uses.

 

 

 

Is it the closest thing they have to a Class 104 by any chance?

[adb968008]

6 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

Is it the closest thing they have to a Class 104 by any chance?

Ive converted a 110 to a class 104 in the past, its a popular route to go down.

 

The class 110 has always been a popular model. I doubt your going to get a 3 car DMU any cheaper than this.

 

I’m hoping this and the Vep and Flirt shine a light in Margate that leads them to see that there is greater potential in multiple units.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by adb968008

[Kelly]

Some interesting items. The 0-6-0 Semtinel is probably more most interest to me atm.

 

The 755 is certain something I didn't expect. But certainly different and new. The 423 returning to the range, with some updates is welcome, though it would have been nicer if they'd have redone it fully, but until reviews appear I guess we won't know how much has really changed.

 

Overall I think it is a catch up type of announcement really. The well known delays to the 2020 and 2021 releases mean they probably have more in the pipeline but have to wait, we'll see I guess!

[rob D2]

46 minutes ago, scouse889 said:

 

The main thing that puts me off the Belmond train pack is the fact you can't get any more matching coaches to go with it. I never really understand the 'train pack' approach where no additional vehicles are available separately to extend the train. I'd potentially be interested in the Belmond one if some extra coaches were made available separately, but as it currently stands coupled with the (let's face it) very high prices of models these days, these are way down my list. I didn't get why they produced a separate loco either - where exactly was the demand for this loco supposed to come from? OK, fair enough, run it light engine or on some duty other than the Belmond, but how many modellers are going to be sitting at home thinking "Do you know what my layout really needs, one of those Belmond 67s hauling a couple of silver bullets - I'll put it right at the top of my wishlist for next year."

Same could be said for the Royal 67 - no coaches available at the time to make a complete train, I think the Queen's Saloon and Duke's Saloon (R4400/R4401) were released around the same time as 67006 but, again, it's not even remotely close to allowing a decent (truncated) representation of the train to be assembled. I bought some of the EWS 67s from Hattons when they were chucking them out (and very pleased I was too) but left the Royal 67 for these reasons...

True,I was interested briefly as the royal 67s and a couple of others , worked MOD trips from didcot about ten years back. I almost brought the plain blue TFW one as I quite liked it’s look - then I saw sense and went back to modelling BR blue and EWS !

[Jon Horrocks]

43189 appears to have the wrong colour nameplate. It was a sort of greenish yellow when in that livery, as in a picture I took in August 2000. 

[TomScrut]

2 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

Here's hoping TfW isn't popular In quite fancy one, but not at over 150quid.  Actually surprised theirs no train pack 2 mk4s and a dvt or 67 mk4 and dvt 

 

I think train packs are a bit of a funny one TBH. Obviously a multiple unit needs to be a pack, but given most of the time packs don't tend to be much cheaper than the sum of their parts, what is the benefit other than it being a nice box to give somebody for Christmas? For example I am pretty sure TfW DVTs and LNER/TfW mk4s got moved about a bit by other stock, and TfW liveried 67 I think have done other work too so they are maybe of greater appeal as separate items.

 

Like the Belmond pack mentioned earlier, I think they'd have been better off doing 1 or both 67s, and lets say 6 suitable coaches on their own. Some people would have had all 8 items, some would have just had one or two locos, some would have had the coaches. If they had done that I doubt I'd have got my 67 and 3 coaches for £205.

[ruggedpeak]

27 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

In model railways I suspect very few care who’s brand is on the box, if whats in the box is unique to the box and no other box maker.

We don't have data on volumes but remember model trains are sold not only in model stores but also a limited range of high street stores like Argos and John Lewis. Whilst Bachmann sell train sets you will only find Hornby train sets in any mainstream retailers.

 

Hornby and train set are synonymous and boosted by TV coverage mainstream retailers do require train sets as part of their toy offering, and that will only be Hornby as it is recognisable.

[brushman47544]

11 hours ago, Ollie P Learning OO gauge said:

See these…. Compare the Hornby packs to the revolution double packs and actually it does appear Hornby are doing a double pack although I simply cannot believe this to be the case for £50….

 

but in both cases there is only one wagon number (the same one though!) but I agree potentially confusing.

 

In terms of quantities, I seem to recall that Hatton's didn't sell out of the original batch very quickly - probably due to the price - and Hornby may have been deliberately cautious as a result. It's the lower price that makes the difference.

[ruggedpeak]

The train packs issue is an odd one. Under the Arriva Trains Wales WAG livery the 67, Mk3's and DVT were all sold separately, similarly the Wrexham and Shropshire sets were bitsa.

 

The ATW buffet then became extremely rare despite ATW 67's and the Mk3's being available. No data as usual but the lack of availability of the buffet probably impact the sales of rest of the set. Why not put out a train pack of the Mk3's and DVT, with the loco separate (especially as non ATW 67'ds often covered so you can use an existing EWS one for example). Seems obvious the packs will sell - it is a clear and manageable and affordavble complete train that will sell. Similarly the EWS Managers train and the sleeper. Why keep doing bits or individual items that helps neither Hornby nor modellers scratching around trying to make a fullset if they didn't pre-order everything individually 5 seconds after announcement?

 

Is it me or are these loco hauled sets of 3/4 coaches and DVT not a simple pack to sell as a group?

[w124bob]

Well the blue early TOPS class 31 is a welcome addition for me as it can be easily backdated a couple of years. Also there was some variation in number/arrow placement which I can work with. A couple will be added to my fleet. Hopefully this will lead to a green FYE example as well!

I also note that image of 31139 appears to show the correct exhaust outlet, at right angles to the engine . Hopefully that's not just a photoshop of a blue loco with footholds overlaid. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by w124bob

[TomScrut]

36 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

but in both cases there is only one wagon number (the same one though!) but I agree potentially confusing

 

It is the word "pack" that is the issue.

 

37 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

In terms of quantities, I seem to recall that Hatton's didn't sell out of the original batch very quickly - probably due to the price - and Hornby may have been deliberately cautious as a result. It's the lower price that makes the difference.

 

£75 a wagon in 2018 is far more expensive than £50 a wagon in 2022!

[wombatofludham]

3 hours ago, Coryton said:

I think tier 3 was reserved - among other things - for companies with the temerity to "manufacture" their own products which compete with Hornby's. I'm not sure that's a particularly unreasonable approach to take.

Given Kellog's don't withdraw their products from Tesco shelves, or threaten to only supply some products, because Tesco buy in own branded produce I would suggest that both Bachmann and Hornby doing just this because a "model supermarket" decides to offer own brand items is very unreasonable and borderline market fixing.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said:

We don't have data on volumes but remember model trains are sold not only in model stores but also a limited range of high street stores like Argos and John Lewis. Whilst Bachmann sell train sets you will only find Hornby train sets in any mainstream retailers.

 

Hornby and train set are synonymous and boosted by TV coverage mainstream retailers do require train sets as part of their toy offering, and that will only be Hornby as it is recognisable.

I dont dispute that, but can you point me to a Hornby GT3, 18000, 10000, 10201, Fell, 02,03,04,05,07,10,11,14,15,16,17,21,23,24,26,27,42,44,45,46,68,70,76,77,80,82,83,84,85?

the point i’m trying to make..

Quote

In model railways I suspect very few care who’s brand is on the box, if whats in the box is unique to the box and no other box maker.

Alternatively if it must be a Hornby class 17… your out of luck, if you care about brand.

 

If you want a class 17.. Its Heljan and you need to adjust, no choice or do without.

Edited January 12, 2022 by adb968008

[PhilJ W]

The model railway market is a lot smaller than the corn flakes market. Manufacturers like Kellogg's used to give discounts to retailers who sold above a certain amount of their products.  

[brushman47544]

1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said:

The train packs issue is an odd one. Under the Arriva Trains Wales WAG livery the 67, Mk3's and DVT were all sold separately, similarly the Wrexham and Shropshire sets were bitsa.

 

The ATW buffet then became extremely rare despite ATW 67's and the Mk3's being available. No data as usual but the lack of availability of the buffet probably impact the sales of rest of the set. Why not put out a train pack of the Mk3's and DVT, with the loco separate (especially as non ATW 67'ds often covered so you can use an existing EWS one for example). Seems obvious the packs will sell - it is a clear and manageable and affordavble complete train that will sell. Similarly the EWS Managers train and the sleeper. Why keep doing bits or individual items that helps neither Hornby nor modellers scratching around trying to make a fullset if they didn't pre-order everything individually 5 seconds after announcement?

 

Is it me or are these loco hauled sets of 3/4 coaches and DVT not a simple pack to sell as a group?

 

It is common in "HO" Europe to see train packs of coaches that make up a specific named train. This might be a selection of the coaches as a single pack or the whole train over two. Three or four coachers per pack is common and one will include the buffet/restaurant.  You even get different liveries and even national railways companies where appropriate. They clearly sell - after all it guarantees you get all the relevant coaches or enough to make a realistic rake. None of the nonsense of buying one type of coach/livery in one year and hoping the others will appear in later years and/or risk not being able to buy them when they do appear. In recent years Hornby has released SR/BR green coaches to make an accurate numbered set in the same year but why not sell them all together in a pack?

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

The Drax wagon,Its more coach size than wagon so its not bad at £50,would be a job for John Constable to hand paint one.

[Legend]

58 minutes ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

The Drax wagon,Its more coach size than wagon so its not bad at £50,would be a job for John Constable to hand paint one.

 

Given that the Lima GUV is £47  I think you are only going to get one Drax wagon in a "pack" unless someones got the price wrong

[Widnes Model Centre]

5 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

 

 

There is, though I forget where I saw it, but the whole point seems to be not to base it on how much a shop can sell, but how they do it. It seems to be extension of their policy to favour "bricks and mortar" shops - tier 1 was described as something like shops that carry a wide range of Hornby brands, offer support to customers and look reasonably tidy when you walk in. I think tier 3 was reserved - among other things - for companies with the temerity to "manufacture" their own products which compete with Hornby's. I'm not sure that's a particularly unreasonable approach to take.

 

Hi Coryton, sorry for the laughing emoji on your post, but what you have written as your description of  the Tier system is what it should be. Reality is that it is far from true. You have described Tier 1 as being exactly what our shop is. We are Tier 2, Heritage Centres and Museum type shops etc. Full details of Tier 2 as below. Certainly went away from the "bricks and mortar"image.

 

Those who have been nominated to Tier 2 tend to be the types of outlet that include heritage centres or museums. Those outlets designated Tier 2 must also be able to offer help, support and advice for their customers and are willing to promote Hornby products. Good credit and payment history must also be a factor and their willingness to accept and work within the Hornby Hobbies terms and conditions of trading. Tier 2 will also include those on-line retailers who are also prepared to offer help, support and guidance to their customers.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Widnes Model Centre
spelin

[rob D2]

It’s very subjective . Define “ help support and guidance “.

 

I thought Hornby had moved away from direct sales, gobbledegook , and design clever when they ditched all the young suits and got the likes of SK back in a few years back .

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

 

I've always found it daft that something that really struggles to sell, often (but not always) after being panned, can suddenly be in so much demand a while later.

Its usually simple supply and demand…

 

if no one buys it, manufacturers drop it, and dont make any more.

Then as it sells out, it gets left behind as more popular lines overtake it.

At some point demand is sated for the popular lines, which can bring craving for lost lines.

 

TPE 68 Brutus was discounted heavily on release, then events changed when Accurascales announced mk5’s… now TPE is one of the most popular 68’s offered, with releases 4 and 5 coming.

 

 

[Revolution Mike]

15 hours ago, Ollie P Learning OO gauge said:

See these…. Compare the Hornby packs to the revolution double packs and actually it does appear Hornby are doing a double pack although I simply cannot believe this to be the case for £50….

 

For clarity - the Drax hoppers have different artwork each side.  Our exclusives for Rails have a pair of the same liveries in each pack which is why there is a pair of numbers.  Hornby's graphic only has one wagon number so I would think they are a single wagon but that is obviously something for Hornby and its retailers to confirm!

 

Cheers, Mike

[ruggedpeak]

5 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

It is common in "HO" Europe to see train packs of coaches that make up a specific named train. This might be a selection of the coaches as a single pack or the whole train over two. Three or four coachers per pack is common and one will include the buffet/restaurant.  You even get different liveries and even national railways companies where appropriate. They clearly sell - after all it guarantees you get all the relevant coaches or enough to make a realistic rake. None of the nonsense of buying one type of coach/livery in one year and hoping the others will appear in later years and/or risk not being able to buy them when they do appear. In recent years Hornby has released SR/BR green coaches to make an accurate numbered set in the same year but why not sell them all together in a pack?

Doh! Of course I've forgotten that's exactly what Accurscale are doing with their Mk5 sets!! Depsite having TPE sets on order.

[wombatofludham]

5 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

The model railway market is a lot smaller than the corn flakes market. Manufacturers like Kellogg's used to give discounts to retailers who sold above a certain amount of their products.  

I'm afraid the size of the market is utterly irrelevant.

It's the principle that counts.  I suspect the fact that Rails and Hatton's haven't raised their issues with the Competition authorities is more to do with the fact they are making enough money in other aspects than any belief that their grievance is too small to bother the competition authorities.

 

Quote

From the OFT (Office of Fair Trading)

Anti-competitive agreements

The Competition Act 1998 (the Act) prohibits anti-competitive agreements between businesses. In particular, you must not:

 

• agree to fix prices or terms of trade, for example agreeing price rises with your competitors

 

• agree to limit your production to reduce competition

 

• carve up markets or customers, for example agreeing with a competitor that you will bid for one contract and they will take another

 

• discriminate between customers, for example charging different prices or imposing different terms where there is no difference in the circumstances of supply.

 

Any agreement that prevents, restricts or distorts competition is covered (not just the types of agreement listed above). An agreement could be formal (such as legally-binding contracts) or informal (such as unwritten ‘gentlemen’s agreements’). The Act mainly applies to agreements between businesses with a significant combined market share. But even the smallest businesses need to avoid getting involved in anti-competitive agreements (my bold), such as cartels. The OFT can also assess whether an agreement may affect trade between EU member states.

Whist Hatton's fell foul of a contract of supply clause, it could be argued based on the above guidance from the Office of Fair Trading that the clause was in itself an attempt to fix the market in Bachmann's favour, and as for Hornby's Tiers, not being allowed to "discriminate between customers, for example charging different prices or imposing different terms where there is no difference in the circumstances of supply" appears to be precisely what is happening with the Drax hoppers.

The OFT further says:

 

Quote

There are a number of signs that may mean a business you deal with could be breaking competition law. These include:

 

• a supplier prevents you from selling their products at a discount

 

• a long-standing supplier decides, for no apparent objective reason, to stop supplying you

Both of which both Bachmann and Hornby have done, although the discount issue was actually an attempt to level up the playing field for smaller retailers, so might be seen as being less of an issue.  But, again, Hornby's Tier system would appear to potentially fall foul of the second test if their decision to implement the tier system was based on subjective issues and not based on any logical reasoning.

Clearly Hatton's and Rails are content their businesses can manage without Bachmann or Hornby which is presumably why we have never heard of any OFT investigation into Bachmann's Class 66 spat or the Tier system.  But the point is, size of the market isn't an issue it's whether ultimately consumers are being disadvantaged, which the debacle over the Drax hoppers seems to be illustrating.

[TomScrut]

7 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

The train packs issue is an odd one. Under the Arriva Trains Wales WAG livery the 67, Mk3's and DVT were all sold separately, similarly the Wrexham and Shropshire sets were bitsa.

 

The ATW buffet then became extremely rare despite ATW 67's and the Mk3's being available. No data as usual but the lack of availability of the buffet probably impact the sales of rest of the set. Why not put out a train pack of the Mk3's and DVT, with the loco separate (especially as non ATW 67'ds often covered so you can use an existing EWS one for example). Seems obvious the packs will sell - it is a clear and manageable and affordavble complete train that will sell. Similarly the EWS Managers train and the sleeper. Why keep doing bits or individual items that helps neither Hornby nor modellers scratching around trying to make a fullset if they didn't pre-order everything individually 5 seconds after announcement?

 

Is it me or are these loco hauled sets of 3/4 coaches and DVT not a simple pack to sell as a group?

 

I think the issue for me (as I said in the post a few before yours) is that the size of some of the trains, and then for them to not support it with additional coaches, will probably put people off.

 

I do think there is probably some merit in what you say about the coaches as a pack with the appropriate loco available separately. As I said in my post about the TFW trains, the coaches and locos have not been attached at the hip from day one so they may have more appeal separately.

 

Possibly the best thing to do (and would probably work with HSTs as well) would be to have DVT/power cars if applicable, unique coaches such as the buffet car/brake etc., fill the rest of the set with standards or whatever and then have a load more standard coaches available for those wanting a longer train. Everyone gets the special/unique coaches and then the standards are pretty much buy whichever you want to make a train up. Loco separate if they do other stuff, loco in if they spend all their lives on one job such as 91s.