RMweb Gold TomE Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2022 (edited) I fear significant and unhealthy increase in popcorn consumption is required to see this sorry affair through to its conclusion, however for those here and in the Rapido thread saying they wish there were a way to not have to spend any money with Hornby, the answer is simple, switch to N Gauge, where you need never have to be bothered by Hornby ever again! Tom. Edited January 10, 2022 by TomE 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR-fan Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 Some years ago a well known manufacturer of coarse scale O gauge trains, Lionel, decided to copy the models made by another manufacturer, MTH (Mikes Train House). I believe that Lionel even copied the electronics of the MTH models. MTH sued Lionel with a court victory to MTH with damages awarded. Lionel were unable to pay the damages and legal bills so the company was absorbed into the MTH empire. 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben B Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, Vanguard 5374 said: The Polar Express Hornby have already worked with Lionel to market the not quite G scale Hogwarts Express. Lionel make a HO scale model of the Polar Express, and as such could be marketed in the UK/EU by Hornby working with Warner Brothers. A very popular franchise. http://www.lionel.com/articles/NewsStand-Lionel-Announces-The-Polar-Express-in-HO-Scale/ I did a review of this set in Garden Rail (and a conversion to run on regular G tracks) and felt it was a missed chance for Hornby... Lionel's whole ethos seems to have been to rebuild their existing G-gauged sets to a slightly wider gauge to keep their sets exclusive, for a 'disposable, run-round-the-Christmas-tree' kind of a setup. I felt that for the UK, or maybe wider European market, this could have been Hornby's way in to the large-scale toy train market so recently vacated by Playmobil. Hell, even making the most of the unique gauge, they could have imported some other sets and made a bigger deal of the tracks. The Hogwarts Express toy is rather nice, the MK1's whilst too short, nice caricature toys. I thought a set in BR lined green would have looked good. They could have commissioned some re-liveried versions of the Thomas set (depending on HIT Entertainments views on a re-liveried Thomas) to have a generic black/maroon liveried tank loco with 4-wheeled coaches. If Hornby are perhaps struggling to compete in the crowded 00 market, perhaps branching out into the sort of markets they are with Playtrains, going back to their more child-centric, toy-train based routes, might give a handy baseline without needing to do their own tooling for the time being. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 2mmMark Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2022 In years to come, will we look back on this and, in the fashion of the popular press reporting on conspiracies, call it the Margategate? 2 1 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Din Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 7 minutes ago, 2mmMark said: In years to come, will we look back on this and, in the fashion of the popular press reporting on conspiracies, call it the Margategate? I personally prefer "Kohler's Folly" in the style of a similarly arrogant man getting a rather brutal ending. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pmorgancym Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 Could we have a Bashers tie in? 37 so mk1s and some novelty DCC sounds? 'I've bought every copy of Rail magazine since 1981 and it was a lot better when you weren't involved' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Ben B said: going back to their more child-centric, toy-train based routes, might give a handy baseline without needing to do their own tooling for the time being. Playmobil have definitely left a small opening here, but the genius of theirs was in two things: - their really deep expertise in actual toys and how kids play with them, which Hornby are now beginning to rediscover; and, - seamless forward compatibility with G, which has a fair following in the U.K. and France etc, and huge following in Germany and the USA. A ‘weird gauge’ set could never achieve the latter, so if Hornby were to try it I think they’d be well advised to employ some more proper toy-ologists, and go for G (Bachman US did the latter with Thomas, but not the former). But, Lionel do now have quite a range of ‘weird gauge’ Ready to Play sets, things that are half way between ‘cheap Christmas tree trains’ and good quality like Playmobil, including Thomas, so maybe Hornby have tested the water with Hogwarts. Edited January 10, 2022 by Nearholmer 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Harlequin Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2022 22 minutes ago, 2mmMark said: In years to come, will we look back on this and, in the fashion of the popular press reporting on conspiracies, call it the Margategate? 14 minutes ago, Din said: I personally prefer "Kohler's Folly" in the style of a similarly arrogant man getting a rather brutal ending. Kohler’s Last Stand? 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2022 24 minutes ago, 2mmMark said: In years to come, will we look back on this and, in the fashion of the popular press reporting on conspiracies, call it the Margategate? Isn’t it already being referred to as “Titgate”? 15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OOgaugeJaf Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 If I was to choose I would be buying the Rapido product. Looks like it will be much better quality. Its seems stupidity on Hornby’s behalf to be still going ahead and not immediately retracting the model. I’m sure they are consulting legal advice as we tuck into our popcorn prior to any decisions. Probably more stupid to be pushing their project given their very poor financial standing of late. They clearly cannot afford to take on Studio Canal who from the Rapido statement are clearly up for the fight. Personally I can’t believe the risk taken for a product with limited appeal. I know Rocket did well and Rapido’s Stirling single had a good draw, but there is so much on the wish list poles to go at. Products with plenty of livery and number variety to choose from to make the most of tooling and development investments. Hopefully they will see sense. Bin the idea and develop something else. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waverley47708 Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 Amazing, a topic about two, sorry three items, must not forget the bus, has generated more comments and got more views than any of the other topics on this year's Hornby announcement. And yes I appreciate the irony that my post is one of them I may balance it with a comment about the livery application on the Railroad HST in Intercity Swallow (Black cab roof) on the diesel topic or see if anyone on it can confirm whether Class 50 Exeter had black window surrounds in original NSE. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2022 5 hours ago, Kris said: I never assumed this, you just assumed that I did. StudioCanal have registered other trademarks in the UK prior to 2021. Having also searched EU databases for Titfield as a trademark it is not there either. Perhaps because you only quoted the .gov.uk website in your post to which I replied? I am not physic... Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 2mmMark Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2022 41 minutes ago, Legend said: Isn’t it already being referred to as “Titgate”? Possibly. It's hard keeping abreast of events. 4 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben B Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 45 minutes ago, Nearholmer said: Playmobil have definitely left a small opening here, but the genius of theirs was in two things: - their really deep expertise in actual toys and how kids play with them, which Hornby are now beginning to rediscover; and, - seamless forward compatibility with G, which has a fair following in the U.K. and France etc, and huge following in Germany and the USA. A ‘weird gauge’ set could never achieve the latter, so if Hornby were to try it I think they’d be well advised to employ some more proper toy-ologists, and go for G (Bachman US did the latter with Thomas, but not the former). But, Lionel do now have quite a range of ‘weird gauge’ Ready to Play sets, things that are half way between ‘cheap Christmas tree trains’ and good quality like Playmobil, including Thomas, so maybe Hornby have tested the water with Hogwarts. The onward compatibility of the sets with other products by other companies is, reputedly, what Lionel were trying to avoid, hence the re-gauging. Given all the confusion when the sets initially appeares here, being advertised as G, I wonder if Hornby were under the impression they'd bought a load of the (older) RTP sets which were indeed G gauge. It might explain why they've not really pushed it much since. They can be modified, with work- though apparently Lionel are revising toolings to make that harder- but a proper set of radio controlled, robust, garden-sized toy trains to a commercial gauge could have given Hornby an interesting new potential market. Ah well. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Not Jeremy Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, 2mmMark said: Possibly. It's hard keeping abreast of events. Not being bazoom buddies and with all that front an udder possibility could be going bust. Edited January 10, 2022 by Not Jeremy re spelling slightly rude word 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
County of Yorkshire Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 (edited) Hornby do seem to have picked an unwise fight here… As much as I adore the film, it’s nowhere near a headliner as are the likes of Rocket, Mallard, Flying Scotsman, Evening Star etc, nor a “must have” staple in the catalogue like a Black 5, a Mk1 coach or a 5-plank wagon. The emphasis on the film train packs also seem unusually niche, and I’m not sure of their wider appeal. As others have said, there’s a raft of prototypes that would have received widespread attention & excitement today, that are virgin territory: a GWR Saint, a S160, a WD 2-10-0, Planet, Sans Pareil, Novelty… even launching a GWR broad gauge range! Hobbyists crave novelty & innovation. The whole affair screams of a lack of strategy - it’s reactive rather than proactive, and on the face of it appears deeply churlish. The market for a Titfield Thunderbolt train pack can’t be that large, and it certainly cannot support two competing versions. And when all is said and done, which are you going to pick: the one with brand new toolings that have been specifically made for the set, or the one with the wrong diagram toad brake van and no W&U coach? All said it’s a strange hill to die on. CoY Edited January 10, 2022 by County of Yorkshire 3 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuffed 1 Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 TBH, I’ve felt for some time that Hornby’s has lost their way since Mr Kohler’s return. The H class, the Lord Nelson’s, the GWR coaching stock and others had me making them the manufacturer of choice. But even leaving aside the Terrier, the 66, the Prairie and the four and six-wheeled coaches, I found the new stock either uninspiring or too modern. I also notice a sloppy ness in their numbers chosen, as I noted on the coaches thread. But this takes the biscuit. And so pointless, it’s picking fights on all and sundry like some drunk in a family pub. The irony of it all, is that whilst Hornby has been roaming around picking fights, other, newer manufacturers are commissioning more accurate models of a better quality at a lower price. The trade doesn’t need this sort of behaviour and I definitely won’t endorse it by buying any Hornby product until Simon Koehler finally leaves. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdvle Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 1 hour ago, GWR-fan said: Some years ago a well known manufacturer of coarse scale O gauge trains, Lionel, decided to copy the models made by another manufacturer, MTH (Mikes Train House). I believe that Lionel even copied the electronics of the MTH models. MTH sued Lionel with a court victory to MTH with damages awarded. Lionel were unable to pay the damages and legal bills so the company was absorbed into the MTH empire. Yes, MTH sued Lionel and won. No, Lionel was not absorbed into MTH. Lionel filed for what is known as Chapter 11 Bankruptcy in the US, a process where the company continues to operate while it attempts to restructure it's finances to become viable again (the going out of business version of bankruptcy in the US is known as Chaper 7). Part of the bankruptcy process was an appeal on the original trial, and the relevant court ruled that Lionel was entitled to a new trial. Apparently rather than go through the process again MTH agreed to a settlement for $12m (compared to the original court award of $40m) Lionel then proceeded to exit Chapter 11 and continues to this day to operate as Lionel. On the other hand, the owner of MTH retired and thus MTH effectively no longer exists (their HO and S assets bought be ScaleTrains, some of their O assets bought by Atlas). 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdvle Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 2 hours ago, Pmorgancym said: Of course Rapido's response coukd be.. *shrug* We're not going to take legal action, because we know our product is far better. Rapido has no standing to take legal action against Hornby - that would be StudioCanal, who hold the rights for the film IP. (on the other hand if StudioCanal don't do anything then Rapido may potentially have a case against StudioCanal regarding any license fee for exclusivity that Rapido paid StudioCanal). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdvle Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, County of Yorkshire said: And when all is said and done, which are you going to pick: the one with brand new toolings that have been specifically made for the set, or the one with the wrong diagram toad brake van and no W&U coach? Hornby is counting on the mass market, being totally unaware that Rapido exists (or being unsure of Rapido as a brand as they are "new"), buying based on the Hornby name. A lot of people will fall into that category, and that is all potential sales Rapido will lose. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuffed 1 Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 (edited) But how much of a ‘mass market’ is there nowadays? The days of mainstream model railways are long gone. And, if I know all about Rapido ( and Accurascale and Hattons and Dapol and Rails) you can bet your bottom dollar Simon Koehler knows ten times as much. It’s his job. He has form in this game. Edited January 10, 2022 by Chuffed 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2022 3 minutes ago, Chuffed 1 said: But how much of a ‘mass market’ is there nowadays? The days of mainstream model railways are long gone. People keep saying that but the market has never been bigger. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 Just now, Corbs said: People keep saying that but the market has never been bigger. Yes, but it's not a 'mass market'. Just in the same way that consumption of media has never been greater but there's hundreds of ways to access tens of thousands of programmes rather than 20-million-plus people watching Morecambe and Wise on one of 3 TV channels Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuffed 1 Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Corbs said: People keep saying that but the market has never been bigger. But is it? Perhaps in variety but not in volume. The sales today are a fraction of what they were in the 1960’s. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Chuffed 1 said: But is it? Perhaps in variety but not in volume. The sales today are a fraction of what they were in the 1960’s. One would hope that the manufacturers were not basing their sales strategy on the market of 60 years ago. Edited January 10, 2022 by Corbs 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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