Hornby 2022 - Trains on Film

[stonojnr]

3 hours ago, Chameleon said:

The point there is they worked with the studios and had permission. My point was, had they produced those models WITHOT getting prior agreement, they would have been slapped with a cease and desist order before the models ever hit the shelves. This is pretty much what they are trying to do here. 

 

But Disney and EON are well known in the business to protect their IP rights often to extreme levels, just as Im sure Warner would take an interest if you started churning out an inspired by magic wizarding express.

 

whilst Studio Canal have been part of legal action to protect rights to films theyve acquired in the past, and Im sure they wouldnt let it just drop, as they could easily be counter sued then for not protecting their rights, but Im not sure they have as much of a bad reputation for a see you in court first approach, as the other major studios do.

[Porcy Mane]

10 hours ago, stonojnr said:

But Disney and EON are well known in the business to protect their IP

 

EON almost dropped a licensing & IP bollock with Goldeneye. That's why the Astons British number plate was changed to BMT 214A rather than 216A. I've never quite understood why they just didn't "flip" the plate.

[HonestTom]

On 17/01/2022 at 11:17, Legend said:

 

 

The thing is if they just had announced Lion , maybe with a set of coaches , everyone would have been happy and the whole 2022 Range launch would have been much better 

Lion with a set of LMR coaches would have been great for several eras (if you're not too fussy about Period 1 accuracy), and I'm sure it would have had a much wider appeal than 'The Lady With a Lamp'.

[Steamport Southport]

However the point of making Lion was it would be for all the significant anniversaries coming up.

 

There are eight years to go to Rocket 200. Expect loads of different version of Lion packs.

 

 

Jason

[PhilJ W]

9 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

Lion with a set of LMR coaches would have been great for several eras (if you're not too fussy about Period 1 accuracy), and I'm sure it would have had a much wider appeal than 'The Lady With a Lamp'.

All they had to do was to release the Lady with the lamp set without the film connection. In fact the Lion was built as a luggage engine, what we now call a goods engine. Hornby have announced some period goods wagons so we will have to wait and see how that pans out. Another film that Lion appeared in was Victoria the Great c.1937. Not only was it pulling the three first class coaches but the replica third class ones as well.

[PhilJ W]

3 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

However the point of making Lion was it would be for all the significant anniversaries coming up.

 

There are eight years to go to Rocket 200. Expect loads of different version of Lion packs.

 

 

Jason

But why bother causing a furore by announcing the 'Titfield' set? If they'd planned it as part of their era 1 range before any announcements it would only be a small part of the overall package. Once they knew that the licence for Titfield Thunderbolt was no longer available why not just move on?

[Porcy Mane]

44 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

There are eight years to go to Rocket 200.

 

Only three years to go the the bicentennial of the Stockton & Darlington. Anybody working on Locomotion No.1? Who holds the IP licence for that? Didn't Mr Kohler have a spell at Locomotion??

 

Maybe for Rocket 200 we could have a Sans Pareil so we can race it against Rocket???

 

Hornby seems a bit lethargic at production times but maybe it might arrive in time for Rocket 300????

 

Or possibly some other manufacturer might take it on.

 

 

[PhilJ W]

All manufacturers are having difficulties in getting stuff from China and if anything its getting worse what with Chinese new year and covid.

[JSpencer]

54 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

However the point of making Lion was it would be for all the significant anniversaries coming up.

 

There are eight years to go to Rocket 200. Expect loads of different version of Lion packs.

 

 

Jason

 

There are only so many Lion's I could want... basically just one. And they lost my sale to the competition because Lion herself does not appear as such and DCC sound does not exist as an option on Hornby's version but does exist elsewhere.

 

There is still this rather old mentality at Hornby in releasing new items in penny packets (except the W1!). Most of us stop waiting for the next run as we know it will be a LOT more expensive than the first run. Look at other makes doing entire rakes in several liveries or releasing 10 or choices for a new loco.

 

So here we are with two sets that looks like it will get them into serious trouble and Lion as herself is...... absent....

 

[Legend]

2 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

So here we are with two sets that looks like it will get them into serious trouble and Lion as herself is...... absent....

 

 

Amazing isn't it  !

[Steamport Southport]

5 minutes ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Only three years to go the the bicentennial of the Stockton & Darlington. Anybody working on Locomotion No.1? Who holds the IP licence for that? Didn't Mr Kohler have a spell at Locomotion??

 

Maybe for Rocket 200 we could have a Sans Pareil so we can race it against Rocket???

 

Hornby seems a bit lethargic at production times but maybe it might arrive in time for Rocket 300????

 

Or possibly some other manufacturer might take it on.

 

 

 

Anyone can make that though.

 

If you can't get permission from the NER Museum (no idea what it's now called) then try Beamish. They have one!

 

 

 

Jason

[30801]

2 minutes ago, Legend said:

 

Amazing isn't it  !

Oh well. Those other chaps are doing it in two versions.

[JohnR]

Unless the post is particularly sluggish in Kent, I assume that Hornby will have received a "cease & desist" letter by now.

[Steamport Southport]

23 minutes ago, JohnR said:

Unless the post is particularly sluggish in Kent, I assume that Hornby will have received a "cease & desist" letter by now.

 

Why would they?

 

Nothing has been infringed yet. I'm afraid people are throwing around terms that either don't exist in law or are irrelevant. I think too many people contributing to these threads have been watching too many daytime American TV lawyer shows.

 

 

Best thing to do if you receive a "cease and desist" letter is throw it in the bin. They aren't legal in the UK and could be seen to be harassment.

 

 

Jason

[Titan]

4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Why would they?

 

Nothing has been infringed yet. I'm afraid people are throwing around terms that either don't exist in law or are irrelevant. I think too many people contributing to these threads have been watching too many daytime American TV lawyer shows.

 

 

Best thing to do if you receive a "cease and desist" letter is throw it in the bin. They aren't legal in the UK and could be seen to be harassment.

 

 

Jason

Do you work for the Hornby legal department by any chance? 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Only three years to go the the bicentennial of the Stockton & Darlington. Anybody working on Locomotion No.1? Who holds the IP licence for that? Didn't Mr Kohler have a spell at Locomotion??

 

Locomotion No.1 belongs to the National Railway Museum so any licencing deal would depend on them (they might want to do a model themselves?)  and on the terms set by Science Museum Group's commercial people who are well aware of the financial costs and benefits of model railway items.  However the awkward bit is that the replica appears to belong to Darlington Borough Council so they might be able to do a separate deal?   But it would be for a model of the replica (even it is is inspired by the real thing    ).

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

But it would be for a model of the replica (even it is is inspired by the real thing    ).

 

But heck these "early" models that have been produced are all models of replicas...

[Porcy Mane]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

But it would be for a model of the replica (even it is is inspired by the real thing    ).

I wonder if there would be any mileage in the argument that it could be based  on the P4 model  (or any other privately built model) of Locomotion built by members of the Darlington model railway club for the 1975 celebration. 

Oh...   ... hang on a mo. I think the model is now owned by the local authority too.

 

Money makes the world go around.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Titan said:

Do you work for the Hornby legal department by any chance? 

 

No.

 

But I can tell when people have been watching too many programmes such as Matlock and Judge Judy.....  

 

 

As it happens I've been involved in the music industry off and on since the mid 1980s so know a little bit about copyright, image and naming rights. Enough to not fall into any Heffalump Traps.

 

I also learnt it was show business not show business. Most people involved are in it for the money and many are not exactly nice people.

 

 

Jason

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

 

 

Nothing has been infringed yet. I'm afraid people are throwing around terms that either don't exist in law or are irrelevant. I think too many people contributing to these threads have been watching too many daytime American TV lawyer shows.

 

 

Best thing to do if you receive a "cease and desist" letter is throw it in the bin. They aren't legal in the UK and could be seen to be harassment.

 

 

 

 

Technically yes it has.

 

Those pictures Hornby have put up as part of the 2022 range include images of Titfield specific things (e.g. the model of the wagon with Dan's House on it) which you would need approval of SC to put in the public domain. However I agree that said IP infringements are not particularly significant overall and would probably be ignored if Hornby made a commitment not to follow up with the actual models.

 

As regards 'Cease and Desist' letters - while that term may be specific to the USA, UK law will have the ability for something similar to be sent which has the same effect. The important point about such communications is they effectively put the recipient on notice that legal action will commence should the offending practices / material not be stopped / withdrawn.

[eldomtom2]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Why would they?

 

Nothing has been infringed yet. I'm afraid people are throwing around terms that either don't exist in law or are irrelevant. I think too many people contributing to these threads have been watching too many daytime American TV lawyer shows.

 

 

Best thing to do if you receive a "cease and desist" letter is throw it in the bin. They aren't legal in the UK and could be seen to be harassment.

 

 

Jason

This is absolute *******s - you can find plenty of examples of C&D letters being sent in the UK. There's nothing harassing about saying "you're violating our rights, knock it off before we decide to sue".

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Locomotion No.1 belongs to the National Railway Museum so any licencing deal would depend on them (they might want to do a model themselves?)  and on the terms set by Science Museum Group's commercial people who are well aware of the financial costs and benefits of model railway items.  However the awkward bit is that the replica appears to belong to Darlington Borough Council so they might be able to do a separate deal?   But it would be for a model of the replica (even it is is inspired by the real thing    ).

I am fairly certain that anyone's claim to be able to exclusively license models of a locomotive built in 1825 would be highly dubious.

Edited January 18, 2022 by eldomtom2

[Neil]

14 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

.... I am fairly certain that anyone's claim to be able to exclusively license models of a locomotive built in 1825 would be highly dubious.

 

Yes I was wondering about that. Given that every other model (apart from the Airfix Trevithick)  of a steam engine is of a prototype built after Locomotion I can't see that there would be an issue with making a model of Locomotion. In fact wasn't Locomotion done as one of those GBL jobbies a few years ago along with Rocket and a carriage?

[PhilJ W]

I should imagine Hornby have received something from SC and are now in a huddle with their lawyers.

[Titan]

24 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I’m not sure, as I said above, intent and action are different things.

First we will know is if / when an agreement is reached, an entry appears in court rolls, or if the product hits the shelves regardless.

 

I still think its a squabble in a teapot. The real prize isnt ‘Titfield’ or ‘lady in the lamp’, but ‘Lion’ as a model, and no one can stop anyone making a model of that.

All this intent, bluster and legal guff about the former is just to try to reduce each others potential imo.

 

its no surprise to me a North American company would reach out for a lawyer & the media before picking up a phone, but equally its no surprise a UK company is inviting that fight in the first place.

 

To me, they both know what they are doing.

 

 

 

Didn't know it was possible to make so many unfounded assumptions in one post.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Titan said:

 

Didn't know it was possible to make so many unfounded assumptions in one post.

Everything is opinion, as there are very few facts to go off… 

 

so go on then, explain it to me ?

What facts do you have that I have not ?

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by adb968008