Ivatt Class 2 Moguls. Lining question.

[highpeakman]

I have just acquired the Bachmann model of the Ivatt Class 2 MT Mogul but in LMS livery. I am now in the process of changing that to BR livery which was lined Black (apart from the few in lined green). My question is whether, in later years, any of them ran in plain (unlined) black?

I have The Book of the Class 2 Ivatts on order but have not received it yet. I have have looked at many pictures, both online and in my own collection of books, but, so far, I cannot determine the answer. There are many clear pictures of lined locos well into the 60s but in many other pictures it is really difficult to tell if some locos are unlined or just very dirty indeed. However in some pictures the locos do seem relatively clean but I cannot make out any lining. That may just be a lighting issue on those pictures perhaps? 

I am just about to start painting/detailing the loco so would appreciate it if someone can give any guidance on this please. Honest answer is that I would prefer not to line it if I don't have to but will do if needed (Or maybe some very heavy weathering! )

This is for a loco that would have operated around Buxton in late 50s early, 60s.

[LMS2968]

Well, I think this was at Birkenhead, some time in late 1963 or after.

[asmay2002]

Not just later years.  See for example https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1035485212/hf41537ce#hf41537ce

 at https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1035485212

They were both lined and unlined black and green examples.

[highpeakman]

34 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

Well, I think this was at Birkenhead, some time in late 1963 or after.

Thank you. That's pretty clear!

 

 

[highpeakman]

12 minutes ago, asmay2002 said:

Not just later years.  See for example https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1035485212/hf41537ce#hf41537ce

 at https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1035485212

They were both lined and unlined black and green examples.

Thanks very much. I did have a quick look through the rail on line pics but, obviously didn't spend enough time on it.

Must confess that I was surprised by the date on that one as I have read that all were lined in BR days at first and so suspected that lining may have been lost on some towards the later days of steam to cut down on maintenance costs but it appears that some were not lined out at all perhaps. 

Appreciate your help.

[Hal Nail]

55 minutes ago, highpeakman said:

Thank you. That's pretty clear!

 

 

Clearly black or clearly green?

Or was it only Swindon that did unlined green later on?

Edited January 8, 2022 by Hal Nail

[asmay2002]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

Clearly black or clearly green?

Or was it only Swindon that did unlined green later on?

The date is 1951.  It can't be unlined green, that came in much later.

[asmay2002]

2 hours ago, highpeakman said:

Thanks very much. I did have a quick look through the rail on line pics but, obviously didn't spend enough time on it.

Must confess that I was surprised by the date on that one as I have read that all were lined in BR days at first and so suspected that lining may have been lost on some towards the later days of steam to cut down on maintenance costs but it appears that some were not lined out at all perhaps. 

Appreciate your help.

Given that 46417 is one of the LMS built examples and the early date it seems likely this is just the BR insignia applied over the top of the plain black LMS livery without a full repaint when it was renumbered in December 1950.

[Hal Nail]

6 minutes ago, asmay2002 said:

The date is 1951.  It can't be unlined green, that came in much later.

The Birkenhead pic up this page that someone said was pretty clear says 1963?

[asmay2002]

20 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

The Birkenhead pic up this page that someone said was pretty clear says 1963?

I ws talking about the pic of 46417  which is clearly plain black and clearly 1951.

[Wheatley]

The Scottish one were a mixture of lined and unlined black. 46467 was certainly plain black when it moved north in 1963 but I also have a photo of it in plain black at Cambridge in (I think) 1957. 

[Hal Nail]

The OP asked in the original question "in later years could these be plain black? (And then says its hard to see if any locos were unlined).

 

The first reply is a photo of a plain loco in 1963,  which elicited the comment "thats pretty clear".

 

I am merely asking is it possible an unlined loco (in a black and white photo) could actually be green, not black, so the OP is aware when chosing one. Does anyone know?

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Hal Nail

[Marshall5]

I'm pretty sure that 46443 was in unlined black at withdrawal and went to the SVR in that condition.  The photo below from April1969 shows it before repainting into lined black.

Ray.

[highpeakman]

13 hours ago, asmay2002 said:

Given that 46417 is one of the LMS built examples and the early date it seems likely this is just the BR insignia applied over the top of the plain black LMS livery without a full repaint when it was renumbered in December 1950.

Good point. Thanks.

 

As my layout is based on late 50s/early 60s would the livery still be the same then I wonder?

[highpeakman]

38 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

I'm pretty sure that 46443 was in unlined black at withdrawal and went to the SVR in that condition.  The photo below from April1969 shows it before repainting into lined black.

Ray.

Thanks for the information. 

Often a bit of a problem with Heritage Railways in knowing what era the livery they use is based on. Having said that I am happy to accept your comment that it is in the same livery as when withdrawn. Thanks.

[highpeakman]

12 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

The OP asked in the original question "in later years could these be plain black? (And then says its hard to see if any locos were unlined).

 

The first reply is a photo of a plain loco in 1963,  which elicited the comment "thats pretty clear".

 

I am merely asking is it possible an unlined loco (in a black and white photo) could actually be green, not black, so the OP is aware when chosing one. Does anyone know?

 

You raised an interesting question. Thanks. 

I think some research into where locos were based may give some guidance on that (perhaps). That picture is Birkenhead and, without the full loco number, it could, I suppose, have been one of the western green ones?

[highpeakman]

Locos 46503 to 46527 were the Swindon built examples.

They were all painted lined black initially but some locos were later painted green at Swindon.

At present I do know which were changed or when but, again, perhaps allocations might help. I am currently working through pictures and allocations. I have a clear pictures (from rail on line) of 46441 (at Lancaster Green Ayre) in 1964 as unlined and therefore, presumably, black. I am sure there are many others.

 

[pH]

14 hours ago, asmay2002 said:

Given that 46417 is one of the LMS built examples and the early date it seems likely this is just the BR insignia applied over the top of the plain black LMS livery without a full repaint when it was renumbered in December 1950.

 

22 minutes ago, highpeakman said:

Good point. Thanks.

 

As my layout is based on late 50s/early 60s would the livery still be the same then I wonder?

Here’s another picture of 46417, still with the early emblem, which (I think) shows lining:

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1035485212/h743462A2

 

So I think the answer to highpeakman’s question, for this particular engine, would be ‘no’.

[highpeakman]

Some further research, by no means complete yet, indicates that these locos were not allocated to Buxton (my area of interest) until 63 to 66 - perhaps a little later than I had hoped but rule 1 comes into play here!

 

That, of course, does not preclude other locos of the same type working in the area. 

Allocated locos appear to be 46401 (1966-67), 46402 (65-67), 46465 (62-67), 46480 (62-67), and 46484 (65-67).  

As I say, more work to be done but Thanks to all contributing. I do try to make the locos I run authentic for the era and area I model but I am also pragmatic about it and I am happy to give some licence to that if the layout gives the right "flavour" or atmosphere so dates are, for me, flexible - to a point.

[Hal Nail]

32 minutes ago, highpeakman said:

Some further research, by no means complete yet, indicates that these locos were not allocated to Buxton (my area of interest) until 63 to 66 - perhaps a little later than I had hoped but rule 1 comes into play here!

 

That, of course, does not preclude other locos of the same type working in the area. 

Allocated locos appear to be 46401 (1966-67), 46402 (65-67), 46465 (62-67), 46480 (62-67), and 46484 (65-67).  

As I say, more work to be done but Thanks to all contributing. I do try to make the locos I run authentic for the era and area I model but I am also pragmatic about it and I am happy to give some licence to that if the layout gives the right "flavour" or atmosphere so dates are, for me, flexible - to a point.

Colour Rail have a few of those ones including at Buxton, in case its not a site you've tried.

[Izzy]

Having had the same basic task a while back, changing a Farish LMS body into BR, (it had been given a 2FS conversion), I found that basically they were all lined initially but towards the very end of the 50’s re-paints tended to be plain black. The mention of 46467 tends to confirm this, mine is 46469 ( Colchester based) which seemed to retain it a bit longer although barely discernable at the finish under the general grime.

 

Bob

[highpeakman]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Having had the same basic task a while back, changing a Farish LMS body into BR, (it had been given a 2FS conversion), I found that basically they were all lined initially but towards the very end of the 50’s re-paints tended to be plain black. The mention of 46467 tends to confirm this, mine is 46469 ( Colchester based) which seemed to retain it a bit longer although barely discernable at the finish under the general grime.

 

Bob

That's very helpful. Thank you.

Looking through, at the numbers above though, the locos I am interested in are either still lined at the time of photograph or it is not possible to tell. 

I am researching various photo sources (the more the merrier!) but it takes time. I had been hoping someone would know but it seems to be one of those things that people don't recall (I certainly don't remember) and it's not something that got recorded or noted much. 

[highpeakman]

Good news! Just found a clear picture of 46505 at Buxton and it is unlined. 

Bad news! Only slight issue is that it moved to Buxton in May 1967 and was scrapped in June 1967!

 

Of course this was a Swindon built loco. Would it still have been in unlined green in 1967? Unlikely I suspect. 

It had been lined in 1963 though (Green?).

This is a minefield!

Edited January 9, 2022 by highpeakman
Added last sentence.

[Marshall5]

6 hours ago, highpeakman said:

Locos 46503 to 46527 were the Swindon built examples.

They were all painted lined black initially but some locos were later painted green at Swindon.

At present I do know which were changed or when but, again, perhaps allocations might help. I am currently working through pictures and allocations. I have a clear pictures (from rail on line) of 46441 (at Lancaster Green Ayre) in 1964 as unlined and therefore, presumably, black. I am sure there are many others.

 

As you say, not all the Swindon built ones ended up in green (lined or unlined).  In answer to a question posed on here last year I found the Ian Allan/Janes colour albums useful for finding out which of the 46503-27 were green. It was only in their latter years, say 65 - 67, that the W.R. green ones were re-allocated to the LMR.

Interesting that you have a photo of 46441 in unlined black in 1964 as the attached photo at Carnforth in July 1968 shows it in front of Thundersley and it is definitely lined.  This was after purchase by Dr.Beet but before repainting in the (in)famous 'fairground' livery some months later.

Ray.

[stewartingram]

46465 was one of our Cambridge engines until it moved North when we dieselised. I have an undated pic (by me) showing I think lined livery which would be 1962 ish at the latest. But of more importance is the chimney -it was one of a batch fitted with taller & thinner chimneys, beware!

Edited January 10, 2022 by stewartingram