Ivatt Class 2 Moguls. Lining question.

[Izzy]

Found a shot of 46485 along with 46452 apparently after withdrawal. 
https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/2mt-46400-46527-2-6-0-lms-ivatt/

if so looks like it was lined right to the end. Other pics show it so filthy it doesn’t look like it is. Take your choice…..

 

Bob

[highpeakman]

This is the Buxton pic of 46505.

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1035485212/hC1919C79#hc1919c79

 

Green or Black? 

[highpeakman]

15 hours ago, Izzy said:

Found a shot of 46485 along with 46452 apparently after withdrawal. 
https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/2mt-46400-46527-2-6-0-lms-ivatt/

if so looks like it was lined right to the end. Other pics show it so filthy it doesn’t look like it is. Take your choice…..

 

Bob

That's really helpful information. Thank you.

[highpeakman]

16 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

As you say, not all the Swindon built ones ended up in green (lined or unlined).  In answer to a question posed on here last year I found the Ian Allan/Janes colour albums useful for finding out which of the 46503-27 were green. It was only in their latter years, say 65 - 67, that the W.R. green ones were re-allocated to the LMR.

Interesting that you have a photo of 46441 in unlined black in 1964 as the attached photo at Carnforth in July 1968 shows it in front of Thundersley and it is definitely lined.  This was after purchase by Dr.Beet but before repainting in the (in)famous 'fairground' livery some months later.

Ray.

 

Here is pic.

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1035485212/hf41537ce#hb6112fd1

It looks unlined in 1964.

[Marshall5]

2 minutes ago, highpeakman said:

 

Here is pic.

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1035485212/hf41537ce#hb6112fd1

It looks unlined in 1964.

It certainly appears so, but it would be very unusual for a loco to go from unlined to lined at that late stage as 'economy' repaints were going the other way. All I can say is that the loco in my photo is definitely 46441 (I still have my notes from the day) and it was lined.

Going back to your initial enquiry you say that your chosen time is late 50's early 60's (as is mine) but checking Buxton's allocation for 1961 it had no Ivatt 2's so really you have to be looking at workings which might have brought one to Buxton.  On the other hand you could just use 'modeller's licence' .....

Ray.

[Hal Nail]

53 minutes ago, highpeakman said:

This is the Buxton pic of 46505.

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1035485212/hC1919C79#hc1919c79

 

Green or Black? 

I find it is often worth forking out for a download and then you can really zoom in. it isnt foolproof but has often shown up hidden lining.

 

Edit: there is a foolproof method and that's to decide in advance which you'd prefer. Then it will be the opposite. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Hal Nail

[highpeakman]

1 hour ago, Marshall5 said:

It certainly appears so, but it would be very unusual for a loco to go from unlined to lined at that late stage as 'economy' repaints were going the other way. All I can say is that the loco in my photo is definitely 46441 (I still have my notes from the day) and it was lined.

Going back to your initial enquiry you say that your chosen time is late 50's early 60's (as is mine) but checking Buxton's allocation for 1961 it had no Ivatt 2's so really you have to be looking at workings which might have brought one to Buxton.  On the other hand you could just use 'modeller's licence' .....

Ray.

I do agree with you but can only look at and consider such "evidence". 

I do mention in previous text above that I have realised these locos came later to Buxton late in the day and that, while I like things to be reasonably accurate (hence this enquiry), I am not pedantic about such things and will probably use my modelling licence to apply rule 1 as you suggest.  My modelling is more about giving an impression or flavour of a place rather than accuracy. My layout is a sort of loose amalgam of the C&HPR, Wirksworth and Peak Forest which allows me to run the BR and ex LMS locos I remember from my (long ago) childhood when I lived in Derby and frequently visited the Peak District.

Thanks for your assistance. 

[highpeakman]

58 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

I find it is often worth forking out for a download and then you can really zoom in. it isnt foolproof but has often shown up hidden lining.

 

Edit: there is a foolproof method and that's to decide in advance which you'd prefer. Then it will be the opposite. 

Appreciate your comments and certainly agree with the last! 

This query has got far more complicated than I thought it would initially! As I mention above, I am not a pedantic modeller so will probably go forward using modeller's licence and hope it will be part of the "flavour" of where i am modelling.

[Hal Nail]

10 minutes ago, highpeakman said:

This query has got far more complicated than I thought it would initially! As I mention above, I am not a pedantic modeller so will probably go forward using modeller's licence and hope it will be part of the "flavour" of where i am modelling.

Totally agree and this is where I got to as well. Having initially planned to have all my locos in 1958 condition, i realised when researching that many of the photos i had formed my impression from were actually taken in the early 60s, locos I thought were stalwarts from my location were only there for a year or two, some classes didn't actually overlap, top feeds came and went and as we are seeing here, just about every combination of livery existed. I've even come across a lined green loco with a black tender!

 

I still try and have a loco right for at least one day in its life but they probably straddle a 5 year period now.

[highpeakman]

On 10/01/2022 at 11:31, highpeakman said:

This is the Buxton pic of 46505.

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1035485212/hC1919C79#hc1919c79

 

Green or Black? 

According to the Book of the Ivatt Class 2 it was still in lined green in 1967. 

There is a photo of it at Manchester Victoria in March 67 which says there are traces of lined green - but it is really difficult to tell under the grime.