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BR Road Vehicle Liveries - Mid 60s


MidlandRed
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I’m aware that the introduction of yellow for BR road vehicle liveries commenced before the Corporate Identity Manual was circulated in July 1965. In the book ‘British Rail Designed 1948-97’, David Lawrence, there is reference to the introduction, at the recommendation of the design panel of yellow for road vehicles, and the red and black logo with the words Rail freight in 1963 - there is a copy of the cover of an LMR Magazine showing drawings of a Scammell Scarab artic in yellow with the rail freight lettering and logo (and an insul meat container in light blue, class AL5 in electric blue and white and a Western in green with red number plate backing), dated May 1963.
 

From my own recollection, in the mid 60s road vehicles were either in crimson and cream or the yellow livery mentioned - I’m aware the WR used chocolate and cream for their vehicles but when did this stop and did they move straight to yellow or did they also use crimson and cream for a while? I was wondering whether this matched the use of chocolate and cream for some coaching stock, from the mid 50s?

 

My layout is based notionally in 1967/8 and I’m looking to get one of the excellent Oxford Freightlifter fork lift trucks - which come in chocolate and cream, crimson or yellow - I’d really like to have a chocolate and cream one but would that be totally anachronistic by say, 1967 on the WR of BR - if so would it be crimson or yellow by then? 

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4 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

I’m aware the WR used chocolate and cream for their vehicles but when did this stop and did they move straight to yellow or did they also use crimson and cream for a while?

Is it definite that BR(w) actually used chocolate? I've never seen a photo although admittedly road vehicles aren't that common in my books.

 

If you google british railways road vehicles, there are loads of preserved and models all in the later maroon and cream but little if anything in early crimson (aka carmine, blood etc). I've never been sure if BR vehicle liveries did mirror coaching stock or just used a darker maroon with cream from the outset and then yellow. Doesn't help that early film struggles with reds!

 

The other thing I wonder is would road vehicles, which realistically in those days can't have be expected to last much more than say 10 years on the whole, actually have been repainted? Or would it just be new deliveries were in the latest scheme but then stayed that colour till they dropped?

Edited by Hal Nail
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57 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Is it definite that BR(w) actually used chocolate? I've never seen a photo although admittedly road vehicles aren't that common in my books.

 

If you google british railways road vehicles, there are loads of preserved and models all in the later maroon and cream but little if anything in early crimson (aka carmine, blood etc). I've never been sure if BR vehicle liveries did mirror coaching stock or just used a darker maroon with cream from the outset and then yellow. Doesn't help that early film struggles with reds!

 

The other thing I wonder is would road vehicles, which realistically in those days can't have be expected to last much more than say 10 years on the whole, actually have been repainted? Or would it just be new deliveries were in the latest scheme but then stayed that colour till they dropped?


Im pretty sure Scammell Scarabs and trailers were repainted yellow after 1963 - the model was replaced with the Townsman not long after, and I don’t recall those in the maroon/cream - the paint looked washed out presumably as a result of weathering. 
 

I’ve subsequently found a book on line which I’ve ordered covering BR road vehicles from 1948-68 and may get some more info from that. 
 

Im presuming Oxford have researched the Freightlifter and the liveries are correct - there was a photo of one on another thread on RMWeb which looked to be in chocolate and cream (though it was a black and white shot), but not dated.  

Edited by MidlandRed
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On 09/01/2022 at 01:54, MidlandRed said:


Im pretty sure Scammell Scarabs and trailers were repainted yellow after 1963 - the model was replaced with the Townsman not long after, and I don’t recall those in the maroon/cream - the paint looked washed out presumably as a result of weathering. 
 

I’ve subsequently found a book on line which I’ve ordered covering BR road vehicles from 1948-68 and may get some more info from that. 
 

Im presuming Oxford have researched the Freightlifter and the liveries are correct - there was a photo of one on another thread on RMWeb which looked to be in chocolate and cream (though it was a black and white shot), but not dated.  

I posted this picture a few weeks ago but it's worth doing it again here.

It shows one of the Freightlifters at work at Loudwater circa 1960 and it is clearly in chocolate and cream as per the Oxford model whilst the lorry in the background is crimson and cream.

 

1943463720_H-BR-043_Loudwaterc1960.jpg.d82f33016549b6673ce7caa833351a36.jpg

 

Edited by Mike_Walker
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21 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

whilst the lorry in the background is crimson and cream.

Thanks that answers my question about reds as well - seems they were initially crimson and cream and then the darker maroon replaced crimson, as with coaching stock.

 

Any evidence if lorries and vans ever got chocolate? I think im right in saying that the rakes of coaching stock were painted chocolate and cream for named expresses in 1956ish but whilst those already painted hung around, they stopped applying it as a livery quite quickly. So did that small window apply to vehicles as well?

Edited by Hal Nail
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The obvious question behind all this is who painted all these road vehicles.

Did they get painted in railway paint shops or were they delivered from the manufacturers already in railway colours?

 

If the former, they would surely have used the same paints as the coaching stock, and perhaps this would be documented in BR records somewhere.  Surely there would be some photos about of newly painted vans and lorries parked outside the works?

If the latter the manufacturers would have to have been supplied with a painting specification and one would expect subtle differences in colouring.  I would expect there to have been a tendering process and press announcements of successful orders as suppliers would likely want to boast about their large orders.

 

It is possible that both approaches were used.  Would BR have placed a single order covering all regions, or would the regions continue to place orders separately in the same  way as the big four had done?  If so, regional differences were only to be expected.

This would be entirely consistent with the photo above - the lorry being part of a national order, and the Freightlifter being a more local decision.

 

Where we are talking about bog standard vans, I would be very surprised if they left the assembly line unpainted or only in primer.  Standard vans requiring modifications might need to be adapted by specialist contractors, and the paint job might be done by railway employees? 

 

However in the case of specialist equipment like some of the cranes would probably be one-off jobs built by smaller engineering firms, and the approach must have been similar to ordered Wickham trolleys which also needed to be painted by somebody.   Perhaps BR supplied the paint to these firms?  If so, it would surely have been the same paint as they used themselves.

 

The OP's comments on the expected life of vehicles is probably valid.  Were they kept in railway service up to their normal expected life, or were they sold off and replaced with more recent models - or did they just get scrapped and not replaced as business was lost with the Beeching closures?  I would think the Corporate Image concept would have to have included a programme of repainting those vehicles expected to last much longer than the length of time planned for the new colour scheme roll-out.   Odd vehicles escaping such repaint would be bound to happen because of the complexity of BR's organisation, especially if assets had already been depreciated off the books.

 

 

 

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There are a lot of interesting old BR vehicle photos in this Flickr group, including many colour photos of the transition era with a mix of yellow and red/cream vehicles. Well worth a look.

British railways road transport.

In a quick look through I did not see any chocolate/cream vehicles, but there are some other interesting shots.

Stone coloured 3 ton 1960 WICKER GOODS DEPOT1960s 2 1967 - Parcels and Coal.. Rail Freight Karrier Artic 1952 Scammell Scarab In Later Rail Freight Livery 1964 Scammell Townsman 1966 - 'Black 5' and Scammell Scarabs..

 

Edited by Mol_PMB
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24 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Where we are talking about bog standard vans, I would be very surprised if they left the assembly line unpainted or only in primer. 

Primer finish was often the basic specification back then, though factory finishes were an optional extra. Take a look at this mid-'60s leaflet for the Bedford HA van or this one for the Austin J4.

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4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

This link has a rich selection of BR road vehicles, you’ll have to scroll past some modern ones to get to the old stuff:

https://www.flickriver.com/groups/1734047@N24/pool/interesting/

Who can say what colour this is?

26576759744_61a8ccdb72_b.jpg

 


Thanks - this is very helpful. The photos at Exeter St David’s and Letchworth goods depots are excellent, showing the canopy and goods entrance arrangements. 
 

It also shows that the vast number of vehicles were in yellow from 1963 onwards - including some that look quite a lot older than that (suggesting they’ve been repainted). If bus fleets are anything to go by, lorries in a large nationalised fleet might certainly be repainted on a cyclic basis - and definitely when new branding or corporate image would be introduced. Fleets like the post office had their own workshops - I’m not sure if BR did but as it had the largest fleet of commercial vehicles in the country in the 60s, it is almost certain they’d have in-house maintenance as the external industry would be unlikely to be large enough to cope with the requirements. 


Regarding delivery from manufacturers, I spent a brief time working at a commercial body building workshop - chassis were delivered in primer, the bodies built on them, and then they were sprayed and sign written to the customer’s spec. This even included a batch of BL J4 vans for the Birmingham Post and Mail, which turned up in primer and were sprayed in the dark blue and light blue livery, and then sign written - as a youth, I was never let near anything like a specification but I presume the whole thing was set out in that, maybe including layout drawings etc. 

 

I would expect that lorries for BR would have gone, as chassis, to a body builder and sprayed or brush painted and fitted with transfers or sign written once constructed. The BR corporate colours had specifications (BS 381 and various others). The maroon is from a BS381 variant - unfortunately most reds fade badly in UV light, and maroon particularly - so road vehicles in maroon and cream would quickly take on a washed out look. There is a glossary of colours appendix in the British Rail Designed 1948-97 book I referred to previously, which shows a 1948 paint chart for LMR stations (one each for urban and rural) - there are 12 colours for elements of country stations and 9 for elements of town stations. 
 

I don’t recall seeing BR lorries in chocolate and cream even though the WR was much in evidence in the Birmingham area where I lived - depots like Hockley had a large number of road vehicles but I simply don’t recall the vehicles being anything other than maroon and cream, or from the mid 60s, yellow. However, pre nationalisation they would have been in GWR livery - it seems the lorry fleet did not match the regional colours applied to station names except, clearly the WR Freightlifters were originally chocolate and cream as per this post (thanks for re-posting @Mike_Walker). I suspect by the mid 60s they’d have been repainted and after 1963 that would almost certainly have been yellow. 
 

Which makes me wonder whether the WR had its Scammell Scarabs painted chocolate and cream during the 50s also - and when the transition period of maroon was applied to the Freightlifters. 

 

3 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

I posted this picture a few weeks ago but it's worth doing it again here.

It shows one of the Freightlifters at work at Loudwater circa 1960 and it is clearly in chocolate and cream as per the Oxford model whilst the lorry in the background is crimson and cream.

 

86794029_H-BR-043_Loudwaterc1960.jpg.7e6fb2f9254373b6aeb7bb8e343893e2.jpg

 

Edited by MidlandRed
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5 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

26576759744_61a8ccdb72_b.jpg

 

 

An extremely interesting photo - an example of a diagram 3/047 'B' container - a small batch from Park Royal fabricated from aluminium sections; hence the unpainted finish and black(?) lettering. The placing of the lettering to the RH end is also unusual, as is the plate numbered '15'.

 

Perhaps Paul Bartlett has further information?

 

John Isherwood.

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WR SD Freightlifters were definitely painted in 'chocolate & cream' livery when delivered so I presume that the probably came from the factory like that.  I don't know off hand who they all went to when NCL was split off so can't say anything about later liveries apart from seeing one at a WR full loads depot in the early 1970s that was still in chocolate and cream.

 

Scammell Townsman tractors were delivered new in yellow livery which I suspect might even have been incorporated into the fibre glass bodyshell. because they had an extremely smooth finish, far better than BR Road motor shops were putting on with paint finishes.   Interestingly the part of the Townsman fleet had Reading had gone new to C&G Ayres who were the local cartage agents for the railway until around the mod 1960s - these had been delivered new in Ayres' green livery so were over-painted yellow when taken over by BR and the finish was not as good as that of vehicles delivered new to BR.  AgaIn 1967 I definitely remember one or two of the WR's larger full load artics still being in maroon and cream but all the Scammells I came across at WR depots were in yellow by then except for the internal use 'depot shunters'. (which were used to shunt trailers around - not wagons) which were painted in all over pale grey to indicate that they were not allowed out on public roads (they didn't necessarily still have number plates, and didn't display either tax discs or indemnity discs).

 

Don't forget that if you're  going into finicky detail for that period BR road motors had what looked like a pair of circular tax disc holders visible from outside the cab - one was for the tax disc and the other was for the indemnity disc which was legally required as the vehicles were indemnified from having the normally required Third Party insurance.  This applied to all BR owned vehicles including those in departmental use including vans and  also to cars.

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

WR SD Freightlifters were definitely painted in 'chocolate & cream' livery when delivered so I presume that the probably came from the factory like that.  I don't know off hand who they all went to when NCL was split off so can't say anything about later liveries apart from seeing one at a WR full loads depot in the early 1970s that was still in chocolate and cream.

 

Scammell Townsman tractors were delivered new in yellow livery which I suspect might even have been incorporated into the fibre glass bodyshell. because they had an extremely smooth finish, far better than BR Road motor shops were putting on with paint finishes.   Interestingly the part of the Townsman fleet had Reading had gone new to C&G Ayres who were the local cartage agents for the railway until around the mod 1960s - these had been delivered new in Ayres' green livery so were over-painted yellow when taken over by BR and the finish was not as good as that of vehicles delivered new to BR.  AgaIn 1967 I definitely remember one or two of the WR's larger full load artics still being in maroon and cream but all the Scammells I came across at WR depots were in yellow by then except for the internal use 'depot shunters'. (which were used to shunt trailers around - not wagons) which were painted in all over pale grey to indicate that they were not allowed out on public roads (they didn't necessarily still have number plates, and didn't display either tax discs or indemnity discs).

 

Don't forget that if you're  going into finicky detail for that period BR road motors had what looked like a pair of circular tax disc holders visible from outside the cab - one was for the tax disc and the other was for the indemnity disc which was legally required as the vehicles were indemnified from having the normally required Third Party insurance.  This applied to all BR owned vehicles including those in departmental use including vans and  also to cars.


Thanks for this, extremely helpful and seems to indicate a chocolate and cream SD Freightlifter would not be completely anachronistic for 1967! Which is a good excuse to have one. 
 

Your comments about third party insurance exemption for BR vehicles (and I wonder if this extended to other BTC fleets like BRS and Tilling bus fleets) are noted - and rather shocking  - one wonders what would happen insurance wise if one of these vehicles was to run over a pedestrian!! Or was it simply under-written by the Government? Presumably this must have happened occasionally. Do you know if the goods vehicles were exempt ‘C’ licences prior to the abandoning of that system of regulation? I’m aware PSVs carried three discs. 
 

Just one other question re the SD Freightlifters, based on comments in other threads - I’m presuming these were allocated Divisionally across the WR, and based at major depots - possibly being sent to smaller goods yards for specific pieces of work?
 

I have recently  acquired copies of the Ian Allen pocket books covering headcodes (based on 1962 (winter) and, I think 1966 (winter) timetables). These, of course are either side of quite significant reorganisation of regional allocation of network, including transfer of various bits of network from (Birmingham Division) and to (Southern withered arm etc etc) the WR. On trying to decipher what happened to the WR Birmingham/ Gloucester destination code H, I was surprised to find two Bristol Divisions in the later book - Bristol Division (Bristol District), incorporating everything north to Worcester, Ledbury and Moreton in Marsh, and Bristol Division (Plymouth District) covering everything south west of Taunton and south and west of Westbury. The rest of the Division being covered by the London Division and the Cardiff Division. It appears the LMR adopted H for Birmingham (ex GW) destinations, but anything going across border to Worcester/ Gloucester would carry V, as an inter-regional (and M in the reverse direction)! A bit off topic re

the headcodes, but I’m presuming road vehicles beyond the new LMR area (including any allocated SD Freightlifters - if there were any) would have subsequently been based on Bristol Division (Bristol District)? Those remaining yards on the ex WR lines such as Hockley; Wolverhampton Low Level (parcels); Handsworth (steel) - I recall seeing NCL road vehicles in that yard (must have been post 1968) - would have, I guess, transferred to the LMR until eventual closure?
 

Edited by MidlandRed
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The Indemnity Disc was the equivalent in legal terms of Third Party insurance but additionally the vehicle driver was required to hold a BR Domestic Driving Licence although that seemed to be less enforced, particularly in relation to driving BR cars in later years.  I know they were very hot on it when I took my BR test (in a Viva HA van) in 1972 and in the late 1970s I also had my Licence upgraded to include minibuses. The Licences were issued by BR Motor Driving Inspectors who remained on the basis (on the WR) of one per Divisional after the NCL split.  Up until a date in, I think, the late 1960s (probably 1967?) if you didn't hold an ordinary Driving Licence but were passed to drive by a BR Driving Inspector he could also legally sign the necessary for for you to obtain a standard Driving Licence for whatever groups he'd tested you for because they were recognised as authorised to test Drivers by the MoT.

 

If a BR vehicle was involved in any sort of incident - be it a collision etc with another vehicle or a pedestrian there were various forms to be completed which were passed to the Claims Dept and they then acted in exactly the same way as any driver insurer would in dealing with any  Third Party claim or seeking recompense etc.  Part of the reasoning behind this was that BR didn't carry much in the way of insurance - it effectively covered itself through the claims procedure although at one timer they began to take out cover for anything in excess of £1 million.  It was incidentally illegal for a BR motor vehicle to be on the public highway without an Indemnity disc because there was then nothing to indicate that it was insured.

 

Some depots had SD Freightlifters allocated although I don't know if they carried any lettering to that effect.  But the majority of the fleet was allocated to the Divisional pool which included some other types of road crane  (apart from those under the control of engineering depts) plus the heavier artic tractor units, some rigids and various trailers.  For example in the mid 1960s the London Division glass floats (i.e. glass carrying trailers) were in the Divisional pool but were kept at a couple of depots where they could well be used for other types of traffic.  Similarly all the Divisional pool items were kept at depots where they were most likely to get regular use - many of the heavy artic tractors stayed at South Lambeth or Park Royal for delivering steel traffic.  But if there were special jobs on - say a big delivery of cast iron water pipes over several weeks to name one of the most common - resources would be moved to wherever they were needed in. order to deliver the traffic from railhead to site.

 

The WR reduced the number of Divisions from four to three in around the late 1960s.  Up until then there had been four Divisions plus still the rump within some of those Divisions of the previous Districts.  these changes meant changes tp the ap alpha part of headcodes and these happened at various times over the years.

 

The original alpha codes established in the summer of 1960 were as follows

A  London District

B  Bristol District

C  Exeter and Plymouth Districts

T  Newport and Gloucester Districts

F  Cardiff and swansea Districts

H Birmingham and Worcester Districts

J  Chester and Oswestry Districts.

 

But from the commencement of the 1960/61 Winter timetable the following changes took place consequent upon reorganisation of some of he Districts-

T  Newport and Cardiff Districts

F  Swansea District

H Birmingham and Gloucester d Districts

J  Shrewsbury District

 

However T was also used for Class 9 trains as a separate series of numbers for freight trips irrespective of where they were as were A and B,

 

By 1966 - in the midst of the change to Divisions although four actually existed by then the codes were -

A. London Division

B  Bristol District

C  Plymouth District

F  Swansea District

T  Cardiff District

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Thanks @The Stationmaster - very useful info - and I’d forgotten many large fleets had their own driving school/testing arrangements. Your description confirms my deciphering of the two books re WR. FWIW, some of the other Regions appear to have had significantly more complicated arrangements re headcodes!! 

Edited by MidlandRed
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32 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The Indemnity Disc was the equivalent in legal terms of Third Party insurance.....

 

If a BR vehicle was involved in any sort of incident - be it a collision etc with another vehicle or a pedestrian there were various forms to be completed which were passed to the Claims Dept and they then acted in exactly the same way as any driver insurer would in dealing with any  Third Party claim or seeking recompense etc.  Part of the reasoning behind this was that BR didn't carry much in the way of insurance - it effectively covered itself through the claims procedure although at one timer they began to take out cover for anything in excess of £1 million.  It was incidentally illegal for a BR motor vehicle to be on the public highway without an Indemnity disc because there was then nothing to indicate that it was insured.

 

 

 

There was and is statutory provision for govenment owned bodies to self insure, which is the Indemnity shown by the disc. Not uncommon and used by many government type authorities - some police, for instance, self insured, although I think most at this sort of time made use of Municipal Mutual (now defunct).

BR self insured for rail related risks, although I would not be surprised to hear that they had insured for a £1 million excess for road accidents.

All claims went initially to BRB Claims Office (based at Paddington) who dealt with a negotiated settlment much as any insurer would (this includes claims against BR as rail operator). If litigated, the claim went to BRB Solicitors Office (based, I think, in the office block at Marylebone) who dealt with it as a solicitor instructed by an insurer would. BRB paid the claims if settled - if subject ot an excess (which would apply to very few if £1million), they would recover the balance above that amount from whoever insured.

BRB were instructed to go to the market at sometime in the 1980s to get insurance. In the event, the best proposal they received was more than twice the cost of meeeting the claims and running the Claims Office and Solicitor's Department, so it didn't happen, probably because insurers were unable to assess the risk and unwilling to take any chances. Later, of course, following privatisation, TOCs took out insurance (they could not self insure under statutory provision). I don't know what sort of quotes they got. Railtrack/NR must also have insurance provision, although NR could fall wihin the statutory indemnity if it so chose.

Sorry this is way off topic for colour of BR road vehicles, but sionce the insurance issue was raised I thought I would clarify. Information comes from discussion with ex BRB Solicitors Office people.

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Not BR, but a Govt. department - I worked for the Home Office (DTELS) & based at the Police HQ. Some interesting observations on vehicle licencing & insurance on Govt. vehicles whilst I was there.

Our vans were NOT taxed, they carried an exemption disc. Nor were they insured but that was underwritten (is that the correct term?) by the Govt. 

Police vehicles were taxed, and insured, by the local Police. And they weren't zero rated on tax either. I did once query why they didn't also have the red/white trade plates to put on untaxed cars, when they had to move them. I was told they weren't allowed as they were not a garage/dealer.

Meanwhile the Fire Service also had to tax and insure there own vehicles. But the tax was zero rated - ie 'free'.

The Police (in that era anyway) often set up roadside checks on passing vehicles, looking for out of date tax discs etc. We knew the Traffic boys well; if they saw us coming they would pull us in and let the rookie cop check us out. We played along - he would not have encountered a tax-exempt vehicle before! And then he would ask to see our insurance docs - to which we replied "we don't have any". The look on the Traffic man's face behind him said it all....happy days.

Oh, and then we were sold off to a private company. Day 1 we were all grounded - they forgot to tax & insure our fleet of vehicles......

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Well 23 hours and this topic has really raced off.

A lot of the subjects have been covered in a long running thread called "Railway Motors", you can find in 'search'

Can I correct some errors in the replies above.  The B R road vehicle livery from c1949 to about April 1963 was CRIMSON & cream, as used on corridor passenger coaching stock.  Maroon was never used, even after the 1956 changes to the coaches. 

Yellow was used from 1963 only for goods and parcels vehicles, and engineers vehicles were B R loco green, until 1970 when they became yellow as well.

S & D Freightlifters were originally crimson, until a large batch was ordered by the Western Region in chocolate & cream about 1960. I have a suspicion but no proof that the Southern had some green ones (any ideas ?)

 

I hope to give some news to those with an interest in this subject in the near future.

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Thanks for this - I have seen the thread “road vehicles” which is more general about all such vehicles - I wasn’t aware of the specific thread about “railway motors” - thanks for the clarification re the liveries - and specifically for the SD Freightlifters, which is completely different from what I would have anticipated! 

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You weren't (still aren't?) required to have motor insurance - if you were a statistically big enough organisation it made sense to self insure.  That amounts to a business decision that the cost of the claims against you would outweigh the premiums you would have had to pay an insurance company on such a large fleet.  I believe this also applied to commercial companies and in theory at least even to private indivdiuals if they deposited a big enough sum with the authorities. 

 

And if this sounds unreasonable, you could also ask whether BR or its predecessors should have carried insurance against accidents to passengers or third parties caused by train crashes - these were usually attributable to negligence by some poor driver, signalman, fitter etc, sometimes (think gauge corner cracking) even to management.

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Reading the posts about driving tests etc., got me remembering that there was a BR driving school or similar on the A4 Bath Road, just south of Taplow station.  It had various hills and junctions, a shed and office.  There were a collection of Scammel mechanical horses there.  The area was located between the A4 and the railway embankment just east of the bridge that took the GW main line over the A4.  Anyone remember that? 

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