RMweb Premium Fair Oak Junction Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2022 3 minutes ago, Ian J. said: After this bru-ha-ha, I kind of wish I knew I'd never need to buy anything from Hornby again. Unfortunately, even though for 2022 it's a case of 'nothing for me', H are such a 'big' player that they will undoubtedly produce something I would like at some point in the future that no-one else will produce, and I'll be stuck with either the H offering or nothing. An understandable problem. Personally I haven't taken my decision to stop supporting Hornby lightly, in fact there are 4 or 5 items in the 2022 announcements I would have happily thrown my wallet open for. Luckily it is made easier for me being a collector rather than needing to buy for a specific layout. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2022 7 minutes ago, Ian J. said: After this bru-ha-ha, I kind of wish I knew I'd never need to buy anything from Hornby again. Unfortunately, even though for 2022 it's a case of 'nothing for me', H are such a 'big' player that they will undoubtedly produce something I would like at some point in the future that no-one else will produce, and I'll be stuck with either the H offering or nothing. I've given this a bit of thought and, in the end, it wasn't that difficult to formulate a personal policy. I'll continue to buy Hornby, as and when they make something I want. Same as ever. However, wherever a duplication issue arises (irrespective of where the blame may lie), I'll be supporting the other guys.... If enough of us did that, H would soon take the hint. John 7 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 35 minutes ago, Oldddudders said: I feel, though, that these film tie-ins are aimed at a market other than the pure enthusiast. I can't be the only one who hasn't seen, and won't be seeing, any of these films since I am very wary of movies and trains. I saw the first few minutes of the Downton Abbey movie the other day. Set in the late 20s, the locomotive leaving KX looked awfully like a B1, dating from the early '40s. These sets all feel a little too much like 2012 Olympics merchandising, and that didn't go too well... I know what you mean and TV programmes can be just as bad. Every time I see some scene like Sherlock Holmes supposedly on some long distance main line journey to catch a boat train, I think it's odd that the train is running on a single line, the coaches are Mk1s and the corridor in a scene on board is so wide that two fat actors can walk easily past one another or can stop suddenly from high speed within five seconds of our gallant hero pulling the cord. To say nothing of the scenes of characters moving from one compartment to another on the outside of the train, or the antics of cowboys on American trains. I was amused in one film to see the escaping Allied POWs board one of the enemy's trains at Wansford only to arrive a bit later from a completely different train on the opposite platform! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis JB Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 19 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said: I've given this a bit of thought and, in the end, it wasn't that difficult to formulate a personal policy. I'll continue to buy Hornby, as and when they make something I want. Same as ever. However, wherever a duplication issue arises (irrespective of where the blame may lie), I'll be supporting the other guys.... If enough of us did that, H would soon take the hint. John I'm the same as you John, there are still bits I want from H. Happily on this subject though, as someone interested in 'original' L&M stock, I see no point in wasting my money on coaches covered with strange grey panels so my money will be going to R. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Connell Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 3 minutes ago, Coombe Vale said: Really? Are you sure? You would think so and I would have agreed with you four days ago. But that was before the case of the "Colston Four." That was a jury not a judge and if this went to court (which I seriously doubt) it would be heard by a judge. 1 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chameleon Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 (edited) It’ll be interesting to see whose models appear first. Rapidos were announced some time ago and are available for pre orders. How far has Hornby got with theirs? They obviously know about Rapidos, so will they be going flat out to produce theirs first? I have already put a deposit down for a sound fitted set from Rapido and will happily wait for their model, even if Hornby’s some out first. It all smacks of anti competitive practise as they can’t claim they didn’t know the other model was coming out or whine about duplicating the market when it’s them that’s doing it. I really hope Rapido don’t pull the plug on this as I think most people will see Hornby for what they are and will support “the little guy” Visiting the Hornby stand at an exhibition (do they still go to Glasgow?) could be an interesting experience. I saw in the video, the Rapido model is at the tooling stage and engineering prototypes should be out in the spring. I really doubt Hornby will do a “Double Fairlie” and bring their models out in a couple of weeks. Their timescales are usually a couple of years! Edited January 10, 2022 by Chameleon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr T Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 The 'Colston Four' have no bearing at all on a case like this. The Bristol case was a criminal prosecution where a jury made a Not Guilty decision. It sets no legal precedent. Any challenge to the verdict would most likely look at the judges direction to the jury. Any legal action involving Hornby will be by civil ligation tried by a judge alone who will be looking at previous similar cases for guidance. I gave no idea what approach Studio Canal would take, it is too long ago now from making a living out of the law for me to get it right. 3 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWR8700 Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 36 minutes ago, Coombe Vale said: Really? Are you sure? You would think so and I would have agreed with you four days ago. But that was before the case of the "Colston Four." What does that have to do with this? Bizarre 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dibber25 Posted January 10, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 10, 2022 12 minutes ago, Kim Durose said: Imagine a world where different manufacturers made models to complement each other instead of wasting time and creative energy slapping each about over a film no one under the age of 85 gives a monkey’s about…… Oh, the arrogance of youth! Quite a few people seem to give a monkeys about it on here, and I'll wager that not many of them are over 85. They also seem to understand that it is about wider issues than whether one gives a monkeys about a particular movie. (CJL) 14 16 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Fair Oak Junction Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Kim Durose said: ....a film no one under the age of 85 gives a monkey’s about…… Bold statement with zero evidence to back it up. Whereas there is plenty of evidence to say the opposite is true. Edited January 10, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry 2 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 Question - did Rapido obtain 'exclusive' rights to model Titfield Thunderbolt? Hornby appear to have got rights to do the railway children remake from Studio Canal, in which case it is possible they got rights for 'inspired by' other films as well. In this case Studio Canal have done nothing wrong (licensed products to two separate companies)... Both Corgi and EFE (now owned by Hornby and Bachmann) make London Transport liveried models, and both will require licenses to do this.... They will (hopefully) have reached an agreement with TFL but I can't imagine TFL have granted anyone exclusivity (i.e. only you can make busses using TFL/LT logos or branding...) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2022 2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said: Absolutely. It can't be good for the hobby, whatever the outcome of putative litigation, for manufacturers to be enriching armies of overpaid lawyers instead of investing their funds in making new models. If as seems to be consensus on this forum the little guys have a better case, the big guys have much deeper pockets, so it would be unwise to assume a foregone conclusion even if one thinks the assumed facts are an open and shut case. But who has the deeper pockets in this instance? Not Rapido who as far as the models are concerned really are the small guys - who made their plans clear, with illustrations of their progress, well before Hornby could show us anything. So it's pretty clear that Hornby are the latecomers on this one - imitation once again with shades of the Terrier and other recent childishness on their part. However a big factor here will surely be Studio Canal which granted the rights to Rapido (presumably charging for the privilege?) and they are not exactly a side street video store plus it's owned by the media group Vivendi which had an income of 1.228 billion Euros last year. So Studio Canal/Vivendi could well decide for the future of any other rights they might grant (and charge for?) to step in and then who knows what might happen but I do wonder if Hornby currently has the financial resources to take on a company which is that big? That apart there is surely also a potential reputational issue for Hornby? That probably won't get to the attention of grandad buying a trainset for a grandchild at Christmas unless it filters out to the everyday press and wider media but Hornby seem to be developing form when it steps in to take on what it perceives as new competition. Those of us who follow various aspects of our hobby know all about it and already it is probably having some negative impact on opinions of the Hornby brand. Hornby has problems in other areas such as its tier system and the continuing problems of 'allocations' of popular models and these are surely more deserving of managerial effort (and better use of financial resources) than chasing into competition with a.n.other? Many of us faced with a direct choice will do what I did with the Terrier and shop with the competition, and not just because their model happens to be better. I also wonder what production resources and development etc time (and money) this sort of behaviour diverts from Hornby's other models and with continuing productions difficulties etc I wonder what Margate might delay in order to get their Totfield Firebolt out in time for the Christmas market? 9 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said: and they are not exactly a side street video store In a morning full of laughs for me, that one is a winner! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 28 minutes ago, G-BOAF said: Question - did Rapido obtain 'exclusive' rights to model Titfield Thunderbolt? Hornby appear to have got rights to do the railway children remake from Studio Canal, in which case it is possible they got rights for 'inspired by' other films as well. In this case Studio Canal have done nothing wrong (licensed products to two separate companies)... Both Corgi and EFE (now owned by Hornby and Bachmann) make London Transport liveried models, and both will require licenses to do this.... They will (hopefully) have reached an agreement with TFL but I can't imagine TFL have granted anyone exclusivity (i.e. only you can make busses using TFL/LT logos or branding...) Rapido’s statement indicates that their license was exclusive 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 Business is business with no room for sentiment. I wouldn’t criticise Hornby for competing like this but equally I’m not sure it is the best decision for their reputation . I’m also not sure who has the deepest pockets. Hornby still has a lot of debt and needs to keep the cash rolling in rather than rolling out. I hope both businesses will come through with a profitable outcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 18 minutes ago, Chris M said: I’m also not sure who has the deepest pockets. Hornby still has a lot of debt and needs to keep the cash rolling in rather than rolling out. I hope both businesses will come through with a profitable outcome. Studio Canal, by a long, long way. I think they could purchase Hornby outright with only a fraction of the profit they make in one day. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium RichardT Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2022 2 hours ago, Coombe Vale said: But that was before the case of the "Colston Four." Which has nothing to do with any of this. Richard 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 15 minutes ago, Titan said: Studio Canal, by a long, long way. I think they could purchase Hornby outright with only a fraction of the profit they make in one day. Hornby's shares are listed, so they'd have to make a takeover bid to do that. If I thought that was at all probable I'd buy some, since the price could be be expected to rise in such a situation. On the other hand, if the stock market view was that they were going to be clobbered and lose a big legal case, their share price would go through the floor. .... I'm not currently holding any shares in Hornby plc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wairoa Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 Not impressed Hornby. Do what you have to do here Rapido. 5 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestTom Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 I think the big question here is how StudioCanal take it. Here's someone producing what is, effectively, merchandise based off their intellectual property without permission. If I was in their position, I'd come down hard - the one thing you really don't want to do is suggest that you're fine with that. A case that I think is relevant here - back in the 90s, the Metropolitan Police tried to take action against the BBC for producing Doctor Who merchandise based on the police box. The case was thrown out on the grounds that the Met didn't have the design trademarked but, crucially, the BBC had been producing merchandise for decades without any objection. 2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said: I know what you mean and TV programmes can be just as bad. Every time I see some scene like Sherlock Holmes supposedly on some long distance main line journey to catch a boat train, I think it's odd that the train is running on a single line, the coaches are Mk1s and the corridor in a scene on board is so wide that two fat actors can walk easily past one another or can stop suddenly from high speed within five seconds of our gallant hero pulling the cord. To say nothing of the scenes of characters moving from one compartment to another on the outside of the train, or the antics of cowboys on American trains. I was amused in one film to see the escaping Allied POWs board one of the enemy's trains at Wansford only to arrive a bit later from a completely different train on the opposite platform! I tend to think that there's only so much you can do on a TV budget - the chances of finding a double-tracked railway and a period- and region-specific train and be able to film everything you need are basically zero. With so much possible with CGI these days, I'm fine with studios putting money in the pockets of the heritage railways. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 2 16 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Edge said: Rapido’s statement indicates that their license was exclusive OK, so then this is in Studio Canal's court. Unless SC have actually given a licenses to Hornby in violation of their deal with Rapido, in which case good luck to Rapido, as it will be them vs SC... Which is weird is that Studio Canal have given Hornby a license for the Railway Children Return (based on today's Hornby announcements) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2022 1 minute ago, G-BOAF said: OK, so then this is in Studio Canal's court. Unless SC have actually given a licenses to Hornby in violation of their deal with Rapido, in which case good luck to Rapido, as it will be them vs SC... Which is weird is that Studio Canal have given Hornby a license for the Railway Children Return (based on today's Hornby announcements) Two different films, two different licences. Legal complications with one needn't impinge on the other. Mind you, Hornby's take on "The Railway Children Return", as so far announced, looks rather half-arsed. John 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Din Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 17 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said: Two different films, two different licences. Legal complications with one needn't impinge on the other. Mind you, Hornby's take on "The Railway Children Return", as so far announced, looks rather half-arsed. John To be fair, so is the film by the looks of things! You can find a picture of the ghastly 4f here, seems Hornby has it spot on. https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/heritage-and-retro/heritage/actress-jenny-agutter-meets-keighley-and-worth-valley-railway-volunteers-who-drove-engines-in-the-1970-film-on-set-of-the-railway-children-sequel-3281976 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteskitchen Posted January 10, 2022 Share Posted January 10, 2022 26 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said: Mind you, Hornby's take on "The Railway Children Return", as so far announced, looks rather half-arsed. John Isnt a lot of what Hornby does now half arsed? Look at hush hush gate..... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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