A statement on The Titfield Thunderbolt.

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

The best thing to do is order the Rapido one and leave the Hornby items on there shelving,its made more enemys than friends lately it would seem.

[Dunsignalling]

13 minutes ago, peteskitchen said:

Isnt a lot of what Hornby does now half arsed? Look at hush hush gate..... 

That's the real challenge the (increasingly numerous) "new boys" are posing to Hornby. 

 

Having "their" models nicked isn't going to be the problem, it'll be the competition making less, but making it better, and building reputations based on that.

 

As a generalist "whole range" supplier, Hornby may not have the DNA to counter that kind of thing.

 

As escalating prices widen the divide between the toy and model ends of their operation (not to mention Railroad Plus somewhere in the middle), it'll be interesting to see how Hornby manage to adapt and evolve. The only certain thing is that they will need to.

 

John 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Sun Street]

If I recall correctly,

A previous offering on this film was done using a lowmac, toad, etc and an 0-4-2t.

Airfix, I think

So has H prior rights held within their organisation? They can certainly expand the loco range easily for additional loco stock.

Could be wrong, and expect to be corrected, so....................

 

[MrTea]

Regardless of the outcome of the legal arguments (if indeed there are to be any) can we at least agree that Rapido’s video this morning was:

 

a) good use of the IP

b) very well timed to generate maximum publicity

c) typical Rapido in style

Edited January 10, 2022 by MrTea
Grammar

[wirey33]

4 hours ago, Coombe Vale said:

Really? Are you sure? You would think so and I would have agreed with you four days ago. But that was before the case of the "Colston Four."

Is there a statue of Simon Kohler?

 

[Sun Street]

56 minutes ago, wirey33 said:

Is there a statue of Simon Kohler?

 

Ask   modelU.

[boxbrownie]

4 minutes ago, Sun Street said:

Ask   modelU.

Not a good seller…..

[G-BOAF]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Two different films, two different licences. Legal complications with one needn't impinge on the other.

 

Mind you, Hornby's take on "The Railway Children Return", as so far announced, looks rather half-arsed.

 

John 

I guess what I mean is if Hornby are violating use of rights in one area, why should the rights holder continue to allow them to hold a license in another area. i.e. 'i will revoke my permission in area A if you continue to violate area B... 

[Dunsignalling]

12 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

I guess what I mean is if Hornby are violating use of rights in one area, why should the rights holder continue to allow them to hold a license in another area. i.e. 'i will revoke my permission in area A if you continue to violate area B... 

I'd agree, but that would probably need to be backed by the result of litigation over the area B violation.

 

John

[G-BOAF]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

I'd agree, but that would probably need to be backed by the result of litigation over the area B violation.

 

John

Fair point...

Edited January 10, 2022 by G-BOAF

[dibber25]

3 hours ago, Din said:

To be fair, so is the film by the looks of things!

 

You can find a picture of the ghastly 4f here, seems Hornby has it spot on.

 

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/heritage-and-retro/heritage/actress-jenny-agutter-meets-keighley-and-worth-valley-railway-volunteers-who-drove-engines-in-the-1970-film-on-set-of-the-railway-children-sequel-3281976

 

Usual newspaper carelessness. Jenny Agutter played Bobbie Waterbury not Westbury. (CJL)

[dibber25]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'd agree, but that would probably need to be backed by the result of litigation over the area B violation.

 

John

In a large organisation surely it's likely that 'current' and 'archive' licences would not necessarily be handled by the same person/department so one might be unaware of what was happening with the other. (CJL)

[Kris]

1 hour ago, wirey33 said:

Is there a statue of Simon Kohler?

 

It comes across that some individuals would rather it was a voodoo doll rather than a statue.

[E100]

I wonder how many Rapido have sold today! I dare say with the outpouring and additional publicity they may end up selling more.

[Coryton]

8 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I feel, though, that these film tie-ins are aimed at a market other than the pure enthusiast. I can't be the only one who hasn't seen, and won't be seeing, any of these films since I am very wary of movies and trains. I saw the first few minutes of the Downton Abbey movie the other day. Set in the late 20s, the locomotive leaving KX looked awfully like a B1, dating from the early '40s.

 

I wouldn't presume to know what sort of films you enjoy, but I have watched the Titfield Thunderbolt several times and very much enjoyed it. Not to be taken seriously of course, and as a comedy it isn't intended to be, but I didn't find it full of things that were needlessly and annoyingly wrong. And as it wasn't set in the past when it was made, it's not full of anachronisms. There are also some lovely, if brief, colour shots of regular main line trains of the period. 

 

Then again while I do spot railway errors in films set in the past it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of an otherwise good film unless they are egregiously wrong, and I'm aware that the pillar boxes are probably the wrong design for the period and the road markings aren't right and lots of things are wrong that I'm blissfully unaware of.

 

Having said that, I have no interest in buying any models related to the Titfield Thunderbolt...

Edited January 10, 2022 by Coryton

[OOgaugeJaf]

18 minutes ago, E100 said:

I wonder how many Rapido have sold today! I dare say with the outpouring and additional publicity they may end up selling more.

Their product looks better and deserves the support. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by OOgaugeJaf

[Aire Head]

5 hours ago, Din said:

To be fair, so is the film by the looks of things!

 

You can find a picture of the ghastly 4f here, seems Hornby has it spot on.

 

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/heritage-and-retro/heritage/actress-jenny-agutter-meets-keighley-and-worth-valley-railway-volunteers-who-drove-engines-in-the-1970-film-on-set-of-the-railway-children-sequel-3281976

 

 

At least they didn't leave it plastered on BR emblems.

 

And just wait until you see what they did with Bahamas...

[billbedford]

I wonder if Hornby is thinking of these models as, rather than a straight competitor to Rapido, but as a simple train-set that can be sold in bulk to supermarkets at Christmas? This has certainly been one of the major sources of income for the company over the years. The quirkiness and lack of country specificness would, no doubt, help with European sales. 

[I.C.L. 11]

14 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

Quick question, was Lion one as a class or were there others ?

Lion/Thunderbolt owes much of her appearance to various rebuilds most notably being restored and tarted up/embellished in 1929/30 so today looks quite different to her original sisters.

[mdvle]

8 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Hornby's shares are listed, so they'd have to make a takeover bid to do that.  If I thought that was at all probable I'd buy some, since the price could be be expected to rise in such a situation.

 

Unless things have changed Hornby is majority owned by Phoenix Asset Management, with at least 55.2% of the shares based on a quick search.

 

So all anyone would need to do is make Phoenix an offer they liked.

[I.C.L. 11]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

simple train-set that can be sold in bulk to supermarkets at Christmas?

No track & controller included, packaging not very bright or eye-catching, bit pricey for an impulse buy and imho the included models are probably too delicate for an average new to modelling supermarket customer. If the Hornby Rocket packs are anything to go by there would be a risk of high return rate especially when used by people with no previous experience of model railways. Far safer for supermarkets to stick to the classic 0-4-0+wagons type set.

[phil-b259]

10 minutes ago, MoY said:

Boo Hoo Rapido.

Hornby have been here longer than you have. Accept it and move on.

Cant help thinking Rapido think they are the bees knees because everybody loves them.

They have their own issues that have cheesed off modellers - like releasing the APT-E into the everyday range as it was specifically a model for the National Railway Museum - thus devaluing the original models.

 

Hmm, so you use your first post on here a mere 10 minutes after you joined to post an ill-advised rant at Rapido

Whats up afraid your 'exclusive' collector edition APTE is no longer quite the investment opportunity you thought it would be!

 

Rapido got the license to the rights for Titfield FIRST! and strangely, in a country governed by the rule of law, respecting those rights is rather important. Hornby have, in todays announcements, appeared to infringe that and no amount of 'saving the consumer money' justifies such behaviour.

 

Hornby are also using up manufacturing capacity duplicating a model - and the nature of the RTR market is such that direct duplication is usually avoided as it does NOT grow the market and merely ends up providing reduced revenue for both parties.

 

 

 

[GWR-fan]

15 minutes ago, MoY said:

Boo Hoo Rapido.

Hornby have been here longer than you have. Accept it and move on.

Cant help thinking Rapido think they are the bees knees because everybody loves them.

They have their own issues that have cheesed off modellers - like releasing the APT-E into the everyday range as it was specifically a model for the National Railway Museum - thus devaluing the original models.

 

Perhaps in a law and order society one may like to think that everyone plays by the rules.  Obviously you agree with Hornby most likely ripping off a trademark by not paying licencing rights to use a product.  I am sure that the name "Thunderbolt" is protected under the copyright of the movie.   Hornby could have chosen to leave the loco named as "Lion" in the "inspired" train pack but chose to infringe on the copyright and avoid licencing fees to Studio-Canal.   Similarly with the Bedford bus.  If they released a generic Bedford OB bus with a generic destination blind then most likely no copyright infringement.  It seems though that they replicated the destination blind from the movie.  Surely a copyright infringement.

 

As regards the rerelease of the APT-E,  are you sure that it was solely a rail museum property release or was there a clause allowing the release of the model after a time period,  say two years.   Recall how Bachmann released the LMS/Midland Compound as a museum release and then rereleased it in a train pack with three Stannier coaches.

[colin smith]

1 hour ago, Coombe Vale said:

Nothing, I agree. I was simply making the point that nothing has a forgone conclusion.

 

Then I can't help thinking you chose a bad example. Some would call that verdict an aberration and others would call it justice. 

[phil-b259]

2 minutes ago, MoY said:

Well First of all - its not a 'rant' so dont get too upset.

duplication is everywhere in this hobby.

Its my point of view and my opinion - nothing more or less.

You have expressed yours and i have expressed mine.

What is ill advised about that?

 

Duplication is not 'everywhere' as you put it - on the contrary, apart from Hornby, manufacturers will usually not bring out a duplicate of something their rivals make unless the rival offering is older tooling and lacks the latest details / functions. This is because unlike cars, wearable tech, gaming consoles, milk, etc the size of the UK RTR model market is not huge and you won't suddenly bring more people into it by duplicating what someone else does. Thus duplication is usually reserved for things like the class 66 you have now effectively got three different levels of detailing  (and thus pricing) enabling each manufacturer to have enough of a distinctive edge that direct competition is partially avoided.

 

I said it was ill advised if you want people to respect your views then they are more likely to to so if you actually give some reasoning, not just a 'cause I says so'.

 

Rapido, like other smaller manufacturers who have entered the hobby over the past few years have impressed many on RMweb with the content they have delivered so far, AND in this particular case have gone through all the necessary processes to get the rights for the Titfield stuff. They deserve respect and have the right not to be shat upon by a bigger company who is obviously still smarting from the fact it got caught out and trying to evade the protection IP rights normally provide.

 

As for the APTE - yes it was originally sold as an exclusive but IIRC demand outstripped supply leading to calls for more to be made. Rapido and the NRM held off for a long time but last year concluded they could offer a further batch minus all the extra stuff that the original release came to cater for that demand.  

 

As others have said - nothing to stop Hornby producing  a model of Lion,  the well wagon or the brake van or even the bus and go head to head with Rapido (who are also producing non Titfield versions)  but to be frank its a waste of valuable manufacturing slots (of which there are only a certain number available every year) that could be used for models of other things.