Jump to content
 

A statement on The Titfield Thunderbolt.


rapidoandy
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Gold

This whole sage is intriguing, and puzzling at the same time. Two possibles, although both probably only froth and guesswork I admit.

  1. Is it possible that Hornby's announcement is what is/was described in the IT industry as vapourware, i.e., announce it, milk the publicity it generates then quietly drop it?  In this day and age of massively delayed shipments after the pre-ordering system is opened to then only run with a Lion model to mix with their other early railway releases (other T-Tblt stuff quietly dropped) might be the intent. After all possible purchasers now definitely expect a red-boxed Lion.
  2. A second, but with what little knowledge I have gleaned is a much more unlikely scenario, is that behind the scenes someone is intending to buy/merge the companies in the same way Hornby obtained Oxford. A move that could make good business sense IF the power behind Hornby have the financial clout to make the move. With that, or a derivative thereof, the legal problem then goes away.
Link to post
Share on other sites

The  Hornby Lion looks interesting and the W&U Coach fabulous .The film was boring with no Spitfires or fake Tiger tanks so no one will have heard of it .Did I see Hornby making coal some wagons for the L&MR .So a whole new era is opening up while the fuming and furious  chuff on about film rights.They are also making a L&MR set with coaches .looks to me like they are right, and Rapido being flashy. I am buggered if  I would invest good money in that old film stuff  but early railways are much more intetesting .As I  cant afford any of it due to vets bills ,fuel bills ,wifes  new customs post on the door etc  its all tosh to me  but fun to read on here .Hornby is sold in shops all over the world ..who is Rapido again ?

:D

Link to post
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

Just re-read a Trade Mark infringement case involving LCD Enterprises (now 100% owned by Hornby) and Chipperfield's Circus. That was a battle between two minnows and LCD had £2300 of their costs paid by the other party. LCD Enterprises withdrew Oxford Diecast's range of  Chipperfield's Circus model vehicles as a result.

 

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/t-challenge-decision-results/o05411.pdf

 

Can't imagine that a Studio Canal/Hornby case would have costs in the same ballpark. Might be enough to damage solvency even more than reputation.

I'm sure anything would be settled before it impacted Hornby's bottom line. withdrawing one train pack, even if its manufactured and ready to ship will be less costly to the shareholders than gambling the whole company!

  • Like 2
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
6 minutes ago, friscopete said:

The  Hornby Lion looks interesting and the W&U Coach fabulous .The film was boring with no Spitfires or fake Tiger tanks so no one will have heard of it .Did I see Hornby making coal some wagons for the L&MR .So a whole new era is opening up while the fuming and furious  chuff on about film rights.They are also making a L&MR set with coaches .looks to me like they are right, and Rapido being flashy. I am buggered if  I would invest good money in that old film stuff  but early railways are much more intetesting .As I  cant afford any of it due to vets bills ,fuel bills ,wifes  new customs post on the door etc  its all tosh to me  but fun to read on here .Hornby is sold in shops all over the world ..who is Rapido again ?

:D

 

But Hornby isn't doing the W&U coach so far as anyone knows, that's the one Titfield-related thing they are leaving alone.

 

I'll therefore be getting mine from the flashy unknown newcomer. :angel:

Edited by Dunsignalling
  • Round of applause 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
3 minutes ago, friscopete said:

The  Hornby Lion looks interesting and the W&U Coach fabulous .The film was boring with no Spitfires or fake Tiger tanks so no one will have heard of it .Did I see Hornby making coal some wagons for the L&MR .So a whole new era is opening up while the fuming and furious  chuff on about film rights.They are also making a L&MR set with coaches .looks to me like they are right, and Rapido being flashy. I am buggered if  I would invest good money in that old film stuff  but early railways are much more intetesting .As I  cant afford any of it due to vets bills ,fuel bills ,wifes  new customs post on the door etc  its all tosh to me  but fun to read on here .Hornby is sold in shops all over the world ..who is Rapido again ?

:D

I have read on other social media outlets that the L&M stock is (like so many other r-t-r wagons) on completely the wrong under-frames and the coaches are the much more recent LMS designed replicas made for one of the L&M anniversaries. None therefore anything like 100% models of L&M originals. That said, like the various generic coaches, better than nothing.

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, MrTea said:

I might be wrong, but I can't help but come to the conclusion that this is about more than just this specific collection of models. Surely, it can't possibly be worth the hassle for just this range/license?

 

At a rough guess with the research, CAD drawings, and (eventually) tooling of 5 brand new models Rapido will have invested around $400,000 - that will be money spent before production of the models even starts.

 

Rapido will also have invested an amount of money to pay StudioCanal for the license to use the Titfield Thunderbolt IP (the amount - though it won't be cheap - and whether paid upfront or later is unknown).

 

So that is a significant investment of money.

 

If you had spent that money, based in part because you would have exclusive rights to sell the "collectible" version, would you view it as "can't possibly be worth the hassle"?

  • Agree 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, john new said:

I have read on other social media outlets that the L&M stock is (like so many other r-t-r wagons) on completely the wrong under-frames and the coaches are the much more recent LMS designed replicas made for one of the L&M anniversaries. None therefore anything like 100% models of L&M originals. That said, like the various generic coaches, better than nothing.

 

Yes but only three people care .

  • Like 1
  • Funny 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Legend said:

But they've also been talking to Studiocanal on other matters ie The Revenge of the Railway Children or whatever its called . They obviously have some contacts at Studiocanal . Is it not conceivable they have discussed this and come up with "inspired by" as a way round it . Possibly getting Studiocanal off the hook with Rapido . 

 

Given the money Rapido will be spending, a decision based on a exclusive license, do you think such a thing would get StudioCanal off the hook?

 

Would you be happy under such a circumstance?

 

7 hours ago, Legend said:

I just find it inconceivable that a large company would deliberately tread in a minefield without first knowing the route out. 

 

Companies make stupid, short sighted, and/or "cheap" decisions all the time.

 

White Star Line didn't want extra lifeboats cluttering up the deck on Titanic for their 1st class passengers.

 

NASA/contractors didn't want to delay the launch of Challenger despite the engineers saying no.

 

Boeing deliberately made decisions that contributed to the 737 MAX crashes.

 

etc.

 

  • Like 3
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
7 minutes ago, friscopete said:

Yes but only three people care .

Probably rather more, but at the risk of thread drift, my point is if designing and tooling from new, as they are, why not get it as right as possible, the argument that SK kept on stating during the recent TV programmes.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

The success of Hornby’s Rocket has spawned several new models from other manufacturers and it is inconceivable that Hornby did not look around for other possibilities. Lion is too obvious an example to miss. Given the delivery date of this June, development likely started well before Rapido’s announcement. For some years Hornby has announced and delivered in shorter timescales than any other manufacturer. So this is not a company taking other ideas, it is a company keeping quiet until it is actually near putting the model in the shops. It is a waste of time reading about most product releases, they are simply too far away. Even Bachmann has woken up to that.

  • Funny 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
5 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

It might be a big company in Margate, or even the biggest but TBH watching parts of the recent television series made me think of Hornby more in a long established “cottage” industry sense than a cutting edge model making company.

 

When did Hornby actually last make anything themselves? I thought it was all outsourced.

 

54 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Overkill on wagons is nothing new,

Palethorpes Vans? There were only about half a dozen. Still waiting for someone to do it right.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

 

3 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

of course, there will be lots of 'rule 1' getting applied all over the place, 

 

:offtopic:

I regularly use a Spamcan on a Footex and a T9 on a Crankex through the Black Country. Haven't got round to the Flying Moneypit coupled to a Bullied Semi Open Brake Second yet - yes it did happen and I was there to see it.

  • Round of applause 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Peter G said:

Given the delivery date of this June, development likely started well before Rapido’s announcement.

 

What?

 

Their "inspired by" has an eta of November.

 

And as noted several times in 2 different threads now, the start date is irrelevant - the date that matters is when Hornby attempted to get an IP license from StudioCanal - which was after Rapido has already done that.

 

7 minutes ago, Peter G said:

For some years Hornby has announced and delivered in shorter timescales than any other manufacturer.

 

You obviously missed all the moans in the Hornby 2022 prediction thread about all the products announced in previous years that still haven't arrived...

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
7 hours ago, Legend said:

  I just find it inconceivable that a large company would deliberately tread in a minefield without first knowing the route out. 


I used to work for Carillion but left their employment almost 10 years before their “creative bookkeeping” demise.  Many friends of mine were still working for them when they went under and were made redundant as a consequence.  My point - never underestimate the capacity of people in leadership roles to make stupid and/or dishonest decisions - just take a look at today’s newspaper front pages.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

  • Like 8
  • Round of applause 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
1 hour ago, Coryton said:

I think a lot of young people these days don't recognize the name - why would they? No TV advertising, nobody they know is into model trains...

 

52 minutes ago, friscopete said:

Hornby is sold in shops all over the world ..who is Rapido again ?

Several posters have remarked on the style, perhaps even panache, of Rapido’s video. The modern world loves a disrupter, and Jason Shron  of Rapido is a very savvy communicator with a laid-back nerdy but articulate style that is appealing to  to a younger demographic - and also to older media (see

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/aug/30/truly-madly-deeply-meet-the-people-turning-their-basements-into-secret-fantasy-worlds

 

and 

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/first-person/article-lost-in-my-own-world-isolation-is-a-boon-for-model-railroaders/

 

He’s built up his company in Canada and then the very competitive (and huge) US markets to quite a height from scratch. He’s also a genuine model railway (and bus) enthusiast with a huge soft spot for the UK (well, after all, the Queen is also his head of state.)

 

I wouldn’t bet against more people knowing who Rapido are pretty soon. 
 

And yes, in this issue I’m tending to side with Rapido, because unlike Hornby they make models in “my” scale (N - class 28 on order), and because I’m a very satisfied customer of their US-outline products.

 

That said, if Hornby produce a Raven A2, I’m in for at least two (Cities of York and Durham please Mr Kohler) for the mantelpiece…

 

Richard

 

Edited by RichardT
Autocorrect insisting that the protagonists are called “Sharon” & “Koehler”!
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
35 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

When did Hornby actually last make anything themselves? I thought it was all outsourced.

 

You can say that of virtually every manufacturer, “making” was used as an umbrella term to cover commissioning/designing/outsourcing whatever it falls under.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Kris said:

The "prop" that is Dan's cottage or the bus would most likely be classified as designs rather than items covered under copyright laws. Designs have a far more limited length of protection (a 25 year maximum). 

 

Copyright covers

  • original literary, dramatic, musical and artistic work, including illustration and photography
  • original non-literary written work, such as software, web content and databases
  • sound and music recordings
  • film and television recordings
  • broadcasts
  • the layout of published editions of written, dramatic and musical works

It is rare for film props to be considered works of art on their own merit (but I am sure that examples can be found)

 

If we start with the example of the bus. This has a recognisable logo and colour. For the purposes of the film these are props. It would be reasonable to have an identical bus painted in the same colours. From the side it would be very hard to distinguish the prop bus and the other bus apart. This brings us on to the  Logo on the back, the distinguishing feature. To be protected this would need to be considered a trademark. In the case of the Titfield Thunderbolt, it is not protected as such. 

 

Dan's Coach is a more complex as a unique item created just of the film, the question with this is would it be considered an artistic piece on it's own? Has it ever been exhibited as an artistic piece in its own right? It is my opinion that it fails these tests. It was created to solve a problem not as a piece of art and as such was protected by design laws not copyright laws.

 

Design law also covers the decoration of the designs. The decoration of the design is not considered to be art so is not covered as artistic work in terms of copyright. 

Film props are covered by copyright in that they appear in a film. You try selling replicas of the One Ring or Harry Potter's wand and see how far you get.

  • Like 3
  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
45 minutes ago, Peter G said:

The success of Hornby’s Rocket has spawned several new models from other manufacturers and it is inconceivable that Hornby did not look around for other possibilities. Lion is too obvious an example to miss. Given the delivery date of this June, development likely started well before Rapido’s announcement. For some years Hornby has announced and delivered in shorter timescales than any other manufacturer. So this is not a company taking other ideas, it is a company keeping quiet until it is actually near putting the model in the shops. It is a waste of time reading about most product releases, they are simply too far away. Even Bachmann has woken up to that.

I admire your optimism, for a first post.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
30 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

Film props are covered by copyright in that they appear in a film. You try selling replicas of the One Ring or Harry Potter's wand and see how far you get.

But even if they are film props the two items specifically quoted would still be in their running 25yr copyright; however, a generic magic wand* wouldn't be in just the same way every jewellers shop stocks rings. The question would be immaterial unless it was a new design and accidentally (on purpose?) copied one used in another production made since 31st Dec 1996 (25 years up to 31st December 2021).

 

* A prop that might be out of copyright now, the one from Sooty & Sweep unless that has been remade.

 

Edited by john new
Clarity
Link to post
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, john new said:

; however, a generic magic wand* wouldn't be in just the same way every jewellers shop stocks

 

A generic magic wand doesn't have "inspired by Harry Potter" written on the packaging much as a Gold Ring doesn't say "Inspired by the Lord of the Rings". That is the issue with what has been done by Hornby.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...