mdvle Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 14 minutes ago, wombatofludham said: The sequence of events gets more bizarre when you think about it. Whether Hornby had started work on "Lion" in parallel with "Rocket" and thought about the "Titfield" connection or not, the timeline doesn't seem to suggest anything but a spoiler tactic. April last year: Rapido announced they had exclusive rights to do a Titfield Thunderbolt celebratory model. April, 2021. It was then revealed by Hornby that they were doing Lion, You have the sequence wrong. 1) March 8th 2021 - Hornby posted to Instagram (and Facebook) that they were working on Lion, that it was originally to be part of their 2022 range https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/162961-Hornby-announce-lmr-0-4-2-lion/ 2) March 9th 2021 - Rapido, as a result of 1) posted that they had the world-wide exclusive rights to Titfield, with more to come on April 1st https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/162983-left-for-titfield/ 3) April 1st 2021 - Rapido does their official announcement https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/163579-titfield-thunderbolt-70th-anniversary-range/ 4) December 15th 2021 - Rapido announces Lion as a separate product in addition to Titfield https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/168974-liverpool-and-manchester-lion/ 5) January 10th 2022 - Hornby announce a "as seen in Titfield Thunderbolt" set, but do not as initially stated announce Lion 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted January 12, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2022 8 hours ago, Miss Prism said: Has anyone asked Simon Kohler anything yet? You think you’ll get a straight answer ? 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted January 12, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2022 Interesting, I’ve just perused the Hornby website 2022 releases, and cannot find the “inspired by “ film ranges. A search for “Titfield” returns nothing. I may have missed them, but I checked the 2022 release list twice. Hmmm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 14 minutes ago, Downendian said: Interesting, I’ve just perused the Hornby website 2022 releases, and cannot find the “inspired by “ film ranges. A search for “Titfield” returns nothing. I may have missed them, but I checked the 2022 release list twice. Hmmm. It's still there https://uk.Hornby.com/products/trains-film-seen-titfield-thunderbolt-train-pack-era-1-r30093 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted January 12, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2022 16 minutes ago, Downendian said: Interesting, I’ve just perused the Hornby website 2022 releases, and cannot find the “inspired by “ film ranges. A search for “Titfield” returns nothing. I may have missed them, but I checked the 2022 release list twice. Hmmm. Definitely still there. I went to the 2022 section, then filtered by Train Packs and Train Sets. It was on the 3rd row down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted January 12, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2022 So it is - but cannot be seen from the 2022 “full range” list, where I would have expected it to feature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Popular Post AY Mod Posted January 12, 2022 Moderators Popular Post Share Posted January 12, 2022 9 hours ago, Miss Prism said: Has anyone asked Simon Kohler anything yet? I asked at the press briefing if it was legitimate to do this as it was public knowledge that Rapido Trains had been given an exclusive licence by Studio Canal to produce and market ‘The Titfield Thunderbolt’, he responded by saying “Well, the point is it’s a touch of semantics, it’s not so much as ‘Exclusive’ but what we have produced is what we call ‘Inspired by’. We are not promoting the film ‘The Titfield Thunderbolt’, we’re not using any of their assets as in packaging and all the rest of it. So, the loco exists, the rolling stock exists and, as I say, the key there is that the packs are inspired by the trains that you see on film.” Simon continued, “I think the key thing is, you know, we’re not using any of the branding from the film and that’s the thing; we are producing a model of items that exist”. Simon was asked if there were likely to be any legal issues in this regard; he responded “No, I doubt that very much. You know, you can start going into registration marks and all the rest of it and what class it is in, remember we are producing Class 28 which is classed as toys”. 3 6 23 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted January 12, 2022 Moderators Share Posted January 12, 2022 Just now, Downendian said: So it is - but cannot be seen from the 2022 “full range” list, where I would have expected it to feature. It doesn't show by searching on the terms you used like it did on Monday. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 A totally unconvicing explanation. 1 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroborus Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 11 hours ago, GWR-fan said: has SK passed his use by date? Sniff him and find out 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted January 12, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2022 40 minutes ago, Downendian said: Interesting, I’ve just perused the Hornby website 2022 releases, and cannot find the “inspired by “ film ranges. A search for “Titfield” returns nothing. I may have missed them, but I checked the 2022 release list twice. Hmmm. Still there if you use a search engine to find it though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 7 minutes ago, micklner said: A totally unconvicing explanation. It seems to be very convincing to me. We will use the language of the worst sort of estate agents or used car salesmen and play at semantics to put the boot into any one who wants to produce toy trains. I worked for the leading company in the world in its field and we always liked small firms entering the market place. It showed people just how good we were. If you are confident in both your product and your method what is there to fear? Bernard 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 Has SK been having lessons in evasion by BJ? 2 2 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 32 minutes ago, AY Mod said: I asked at the press briefing if it was legitimate to do this as it was public knowledge that Rapido Trains had been given an exclusive licence by Studio Canal to produce and market ‘The Titfield Thunderbolt’, he responded by saying “Well, the point is it’s a touch of semantics, it’s not so much as ‘Exclusive’ but what we have produced is what we call ‘Inspired by’. We are not promoting the film ‘The Titfield Thunderbolt’, we’re not using any of their assets as in packaging and all the rest of it. So, the loco exists, the rolling stock exists and, as I say, the key there is that the packs are inspired by the trains that you see on film.” Simon continued, “I think the key thing is, you know, we’re not using any of the branding from the film and that’s the thing; we are producing a model of items that exist”. Simon was asked if there were likely to be any legal issues in this regard; he responded “No, I doubt that very much. You know, you can start going into registration marks and all the rest of it and what class it is in, remember we are producing Class 28 which is classed as toys”. Based on that logic, will the next in the film series be a Blue E4 locomotive with a pack of two generic teak four wheel coaches "inspired by Thomas and the Magic Railroad?" 3 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Din Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 26 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said: It seems to be very convincing to me. We will use the language of the worst sort of estate agents or used car salesmen and play at semantics to put the boot into any one who wants to produce toy trains. I worked for the leading company in the world in its field and we always liked small firms entering the market place. It showed people just how good we were. If you are confident in both your product and your method what is there to fear? Bernard Probably because Hornby's QC as of late has pretty much collapsed, the internet is littered with people and youtubers pointing out their broken or otherwise wonky Hornby locomotives. The Hush Hush seemed like a complete dice roll on if yours would work or not. They do seem to be playing hard on the class of products angle, which while utterly scummy would be legal in the legal writing of the law. Lots of "It's just not cricket" alarms blaring out. Hornby also seems fairly confident in pushing mainland european style prices onto the UK market at this point, knowing they do have a returning or new audience who won't "know better" and likely fork out the cash for their new hobby. Prices have trended steadily upwards in recent years, but the rather obvious leaps in the Railroad range (at which point you're just paying high prices for a lesser detailed model) show they feel confident enough to do this. It's odd, it feels like Hornby's still in the "We're going bankrupt tomorrow" mentality which has lead to these horrible practises and attitude when we know now this isn't the case. It's leading to a lot of products suffering for the profit-at-all-costs, never mind the horrific PR among what could be considered it's "core audience". 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted January 12, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2022 51 minutes ago, Ouroborus said: Sniff him and find out Sniff test? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CUCKOO LINE Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 So they are toys when you want to do something that is close to the line and models when you want an excuse to charge a lot if money and target those with deep pockets ! 8 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 1 16 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 12, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Downendian said: So it is - but cannot be seen from the 2022 “full range” list, where I would have expected it to feature. 1 hour ago, AY Mod said: It doesn't show by searching on the terms you used like it did on Monday. Interesting. So lets google..…. how about the “licensed” product… and here it is… 1st hit.. its Hornby ? How about looking for the “official” product… The two images are Hornby, not Rapido, yet the top 4 hits are Rapido but Hornby appears…. Ive repeated it in Chrome as well.. Am I the only one who finds that confusing ? Edited January 12, 2022 by adb968008 4 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyRule1 Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, AY Mod said: remember we are producing Class 28 which is classed as toys”. Is this the same SK of whom a clip was repeatedly shown during the recent TV series says that "these are not toys" or similar. Edited January 12, 2022 by MyRule1 spelling 1 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Peter Kazmierczak said: Has SK been having lessons in evasion by BJ? The hand gestures remind me more of Tony Bliar. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted January 12, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2022 14 hours ago, Legend said: Yep I also work for a large Corporation and you are right Hornby is a minnow by comparison . But I bet they have access to to specialist IP consultants and lawyers . Going the other way they are looking to patent their steam system or aspects of it . They won’t have an IP lawyer on site but inevitably they can call someone in who will be delighted to charge them for the privilege . In terms of corporate governance , again accepting that this is a small company , there should be procedures in place that stop employees landing the company in litigation . I think there is a tendency to lay this st the door of Simon Kohler but for something that could involve the company in litigation he should have had to refer this upwards . I wasn’t inferring they had no access to IP advice, although I’d be surprised if they have it in house. I was merely pointing out that the company is not the massive organisation some people might have the impression it is due to its market brand awareness. TBH the way they have presented this product launch I’d be amazed if they sought advice before the launch. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium boxbrownie Posted January 12, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2022 13 hours ago, phil-b259 said: Not so! Rapidos (whom I imagine you are refering to) products are most definitely 'toys' legally speaking! If any legal action is taken in respect of the dispute then it is very much a case of two toy manufacturers being involved. But only for tax purposes m’Lord. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted January 12, 2022 Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) Arrogance has caused many a spectacular crash and burn, especially to those that thought they were untouchable... Edited January 12, 2022 by Titan 2 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium RichardT Posted January 12, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, phil-b259 said: Rapidos (whom I imagine you are refering to) products are most definitely 'toys' legally speaking! I’m not so sure. IIRC the phrase “detailed scale model for adult collectors” appears on rtr model railway packaging specifically to make it clear that these are not, legally, toys and so do not have to comply with toy safety legislation. Of course, how the mass media decide to characterise the dispute (if they notice, which they might, given the current popularity of model railway stories as human interest filler)* is another matter. People also keep mentioning this matter “going to court” and “breaking the law.” That’s technically correct, but IP infringement is a civil, not a criminal, matter involving damages. So this kerfuffle is much more likely to be settled by exchanges of stiff letters, negotiations and arbitration. Followed by publication of a formal and uninformative statement from both parties. *And especially if “Titgate” or “Margategate” become a thing! Thanks to Neil below for the reminder Richard Edited January 12, 2022 by RichardT Titgate 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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