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A statement on The Titfield Thunderbolt.


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20 minutes ago, Not Jeremy said:

Oops, quite right, oh well....

 

Shows how well that particular peice of rubbish is remembered! 

 

Looking it up, it seems this particular peice of "smut" which the poster mis-remembered as indeed Eurotrash was some show on BBC2 between 1988 and 1992 which, according to wikipedia:

 

The show which would usually go out in an early evening slot, such as 7.30pm on a Wednesday night, featured reports from up-and-coming new bands linked together with footage of De Caunes standing in front of a large Rapido sign on a white background. 

 

 

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6 hours ago, RichardT said:

I’m not so sure. IIRC the phrase “detailed scale model for adult collectors” appears on rtr model railway packaging specifically to make it clear that these are not, legally, toys and so do not have to comply with toy safety legislation. 

 

 

 

Sorry, that blub means nothing!

 

Put it this way, if model railway vehicles were not regarded as toys then customs charges would need to be paid on export / import to the country!

 

You can plaster the box with all sorts of claims, and still say 'for use by ages 14 and over' on the box and it doesn't make the product any less of a 'toy' as far as the Tax and Customs authorities are concerned.

 

If you read all the reams of documentation about such matters its quite clear that although ' toys' carry no duty, things like electrical components (motors), miniature machines, works of art, etc all DO carry duty. Someone posted a potential shopping list on one of the threads here recently which included a wagon, some plastic strip, some brass rod, some paint, a pack of mini-drils, etc Out of all that ther ONLY thing which attracted zero duty was the wagon -precisely because it was a 'toy'. Everything else was subject to a different rate of customs charges depending on what it was.

 

Moreover they are NOT EXEMPT FROM TOY SAFETY LEGISLATION! Thats why things like lead solder have been banned in them for over a decade now etc.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, mdvle said:

I think you will find that Hornby is essentially unknown outside the UK.

Although they do have quite a lot of market penetration in other European countries through acquired brands (Lima, Electrotren, Joeuf etc).

 

Not that that would really help with sales of the 'Titfield Thunderbolt' overseas, as 1950s Ealing Comedies are probably a bit of a niche interest amongst the rest of Europe, in the same way that, say, Jacques Tati is in the UK. 

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15 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Sorry, that blub means nothing!

 

Put it this way, if model railway vehicles were not regarded as toys then customs charges would need to be paid on export / import to the country!

 

You can plaster the box with all sorts of claims, and still say 'for use by ages 14 and over' on the box and it doesn't make the product any less of a 'toy' as far as the Tax and Customs authorities are concerned.

 

If you read all the reams of documentation about such matters its quite clear that although ' toys' carry no duty, things like electrical components (motors), miniature machines, works of art, etc all DO carry duty. Someone posted a potential shopping list on one of the threads here recently which included a wagon, some plastic strip, some brass rod, some paint, a pack of mini-drils, etc Out of all that ther ONLY thing which attracted zero duty was the wagon -precisely because it was a 'toy'. Everything else was subject to a different rate of customs charges depending on what it was.

 

Moreover they are NOT EXEMPT FROM TOY SAFETY LEGISLATION! Thats why things like lead solder have been banned in them for over a decade now etc.

 

Just because something may be described as a toy for customs purposes does not mean it is a toy in other contexts.

Also toys are not unique in being zero rated for duty - plenty of other things are.

 

And I presume you're not suggesting that Hornby models have to meet the same requirements as a toy intended for small children. Clearly they don't and can't. Lead solder is of course now banned in consumer products in general, not just toys.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Sorry, that blub means nothing!

 

Put it this way, if model railway vehicles were not regarded as toys then customs charges would need to be paid on export / import to the country!

 

Thanks for the correction.  But we're all friends on here - no need to shout.  :wub:

 

Richard

Edited by RichardT
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19 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Just because something may be described as a toy for customs purposes does not mean it is a toy in other contexts.

Also toys are not unique in being zero rated for duty - plenty of other things are.

Not sure anyone can blag it's a cake though...

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27 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Just because something may be described as a toy for customs purposes does not mean it is a toy in other contexts.

Also toys are not unique in being zero rated for duty - plenty of other things are.

 

And I presume you're not suggesting that Hornby models have to meet the same requirements as a toy intended for small children. Clearly they don't and can't. Lead solder is of course now banned in consumer products in general, not just toys.

 

 

Which is why many toys have “not suitable for ages under” so they can be toys but toys with small parts and details that would not pass legislation for a toy for 3 year olds.

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Any organisation will only have a finite amount of resource to invest in a project,

 

  • Management capacity,
  • Design capacity
  • Manufacture capacity

 

If I was a Hornby shareholder (particularly if I was the main/majority shareholder which we know they have) I would be asking Hornby management if they really believe that focusing large amounts of all 3 on a project with relatively limited sales potential was really a good use of that time.

 

Management and design capacity are pretty much fixed if you sell one batch of 500, or 10 batches of 500, or many batches of 5000. I already thought that when I watched model world on TV and saw the effort put against the Dublo 'Channel Packet' for a run of just 500 loco's they were making some questionable decisions. Titfield Thunderbolt must be much the same - even if there wasn't another player in the field, there are plenty of other model candidates out there that have the potential to sell many runs in many liveries over more years.

 

The class 66 is a good example of this - totally ubiquitous all over the UK for the last 20 years, and probably for the next 20, in dozens of liveries already, having it in your line up means a batch or two a year with only the livery to adjust, its the sort of loco that Hornby need to have in their range as a staple.

 

A company like Hornby has significant fixed costs to divide across its range, whereas the likes of Rapido can probably get away with taking a more modest profit out of a single batch and then moving on.

 

Its not like Hornby are making such large profits that they can afford the odd vanity project that will only just wash its face (or lose). For Titfield there will inevitably be a drag on Hornby where the management have to focus on the IP issue (even if they believe their position is completely rock solid), and this will be at the expense of managing some other project that (the shareholders will hope) could be more profitable (or in fact those shareholders might just settle for actually profitable).

 

My shareholder would also be asking why Hornby management seem SO poor at determining what the right production quantity's of their runs, as this should really be a core competency and one which they have decades of experience in, yet as we have read all about, they seem totally unable to find the right balance between enough to satisfy demand without needing to move the excess at a discount, they seem utterly unable to find a happy balance.

 

Jon  

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There have been several mentions that the project wouldn't be profitable for Hornby. Is that actually the case? Jason Shron isn't the sort to take on a project if it would be a drain on the company coffers. He's cancelled a few projects when the pre-order book didn't reach certain thresholds. It's why Rapido doesn't ask for money up front.

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2 minutes ago, jaym481 said:

There have been several mentions that the project wouldn't be profitable for Hornby. Is that actually the case? Jason Shron isn't the sort to take on a project if it would be a drain on the company coffers. He's cancelled a few projects when the pre-order book didn't reach certain thresholds. It's why Rapido doesn't ask for money up front.

 

I think it might be profitable, certainly could be if there wasn't another player in that market, but is it really profitable enough, when you have the overheads of Hornby? and even when Rapido announced it I did think to myself  'that's a rather Jason thing to do, I'm surprised that he thinks there is enough profit to make it worth the effort'  but then I thought that of his Birmingham bus release x10!

 

Jon

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28 minutes ago, jonhall said:

Any organisation will only have a finite amount of resource to invest in a project,

 

  • Management capacity,
  • Design capacity
  • Manufacture capacity

 

If I was a Hornby shareholder (particularly if I was the main/majority shareholder which we know they have) I would be asking Hornby management if they really believe that focusing large amounts of all 3 on a project with relatively limited sales potential was really a good use of that time.

 

Management and design capacity are pretty much fixed if you sell one batch of 500, or 10 batches of 500, or many batches of 5000. I already thought that when I watched model world on TV and saw the effort put against the Dublo 'Channel Packet' for a run of just 500 loco's they were making some questionable decisions. Titfield Thunderbolt must be much the same - even if there wasn't another player in the field, there are plenty of other model candidates out there that have the potential to sell many runs in many liveries over more years.

 

The class 66 is a good example of this - totally ubiquitous all over the UK for the last 20 years, and probably for the next 20, in dozens of liveries already, having it in your line up means a batch or two a year with only the livery to adjust, its the sort of loco that Hornby need to have in their range as a staple.

 

A company like Hornby has significant fixed costs to divide across its range, whereas the likes of Rapido can probably get away with taking a more modest profit out of a single batch and then moving on.

 

Its not like Hornby are making such large profits that they can afford the odd vanity project that will only just wash its face (or lose). For Titfield there will inevitably be a drag on Hornby where the management have to focus on the IP issue (even if they believe their position is completely rock solid), and this will be at the expense of managing some other project that (the shareholders will hope) could be more profitable (or in fact those shareholders might just settle for actually profitable).

 

My shareholder would also be asking why Hornby management seem SO poor at determining what the right production quantity's of their runs, as this should really be a core competency and one which they have decades of experience in, yet as we have read all about, they seem totally unable to find the right balance between enough to satisfy demand without needing to move the excess at a discount, they seem utterly unable to find a happy balance.

 

Jon  

 

I'd have thought Titfield has every chance of being more popular than either the LNER W1 Hush-Hush or the LMS Turbomotive. 

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5 minutes ago, colin smith said:

 

I'd have thought Titfield has every chance of being more popular than either the LNER W1 Hush-Hush or the LMS Turbomotive. 

 

I suspect sick flavoured ice cream would be more popular than sh** flavoured ice cream, but I'd still think there was more profit to be had from Vanilla. 

 

Jon

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20 minutes ago, jaym481 said:

There have been several mentions that the project wouldn't be profitable for Hornby. Is that actually the case? Jason Shron isn't the sort to take on a project if it would be a drain on the company coffers. He's cancelled a few projects when the pre-order book didn't reach certain thresholds. It's why Rapido doesn't ask for money up front.

 

It can at times be complicated, and decisions not always obvious from a strictly logical/economic perspective.

 

Generally speaking, for someone like Hornby who have been struggling part of the question isn't whether project A is profitable - because generally speaking it will be - but rather would they be better off doing project B that offers more profit.

 

I think the assumptions that Titifield/Lion won't be profitable are perhaps being based on a guess that a limited appeal model isn't going to sell enough for 2 companies to both tool it and make a profit while 1 company could.

 

As for Rapido, speaking as an outsider one of the equations in making the decision will have been getting greater brand awareness of the existence of Rapido UK.  Titfield does that (even before Hornby helped out the cause) by being a splashy release that will catch people's attention even if they don't end up buying - they will notice that there is a new company in the market.

 

Now, I have no idea what the finances are, but even at break-even (or even potentially a small loss) for Rapido - or any other company entering a new market - creating that brand awareness can be worth the risk.

 

But beyond Titfield there are items like the Toad and maybe the bus that have potential for multiple runs in the future - certainly more than say Lion or the Loriot Y that had only 2 in real life - that will also impact the financial decision making.

 

Despite all of the above, my guess is that the Titfield sets will make a profit (on the assumption Hornby's spoiler is removed from the equation) and any subsequent runs of individual pieces will simply be bonus.

 

If Hornby does go ahead I don't know that any of us on the outside can make a guess - though the inability of 2 major retailers to sell Hornby will help sway things towards Rapido.

Edited by mdvle
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20 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

If Hornby does go ahead I don't know that any of us on the outside can make a guess - though the inability of 2 major retailers to sell Hornby will help sway things towards Rapido.

Only Rail's don't sell Hornby. Hattons are a tier three shop but Hornby could be very pleased they do still stock some Hornby as Hornby may need to dump them somewhere if things go wrong for them. I just hope that by the time that happens Rapido have sold all they have made.

 

I should also add that I hope a solution to the current situation that both sides are happy about is found and both sell well.

Edited by Chris116
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3 minutes ago, Chris116 said:

Only Rail's don't sell Hornby. Hattons are a tier three shop but Hornby could be very pleased they do still stock some Hornby as Hornby may need to dump them somewhere if things go wrong for them. I just hope that by the time that happens Rapido have sold all they have made.

 

It sort of splitting hairs - yes, technically Hattons can sell Hornby, but as a tier 3 they aren't going to get any of the desirable items.  So essentially from the customer perspective they aren't a Hornby stockist.

 

 

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1 minute ago, mdvle said:

 

It sort of splitting hairs - yes, technically Hattons can sell Hornby, but as a tier 3 they aren't going to get any of the desirable items.  So essentially from the customer perspective they aren't a Hornby stockist.

 

 

I know exactly where you are coming from and agree with you. But Hornby may suddenly need Hattons a lot more than they would like if things go wrong for Hornby.

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Just now, Chris116 said:

I know exactly where you are coming from and agree with you. But Hornby may suddenly need Hattons a lot more than they would like if things go wrong for Hornby.

 

Interesting thought.

 

A conversation along the lines of "yes, Mr. H, I understand you have this warehouse full of your sort of movie product, but you see we already sold our customers the real thing.  I mean, it would be a shame if you had to keep paying to keep the dust off those sets...  Would now be a convenient time for you to discuss this other issue we have regarding our tier status?"

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9 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Interesting thought.

 

A conversation along the lines of "yes, Mr. H, I understand you have this warehouse full of your sort of movie product, but you see we already sold our customers the real thing.  I mean, it would be a shame if you had to keep paying to keep the dust off those sets...  Would now be a convenient time for you to discuss this other issue we have regarding our tier status?"

Exactly!

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44 minutes ago, colin smith said:

 

I'd have thought Titfield has every chance of being more popular than either the LNER W1 Hush-Hush or the LMS Turbomotive. 

Just wait until next year.

We will probably have The Great Bear from Hornby.

With the tag line. "Inspired by Paddington".

Bernard 

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Back around the turn of the 21st century,  a largescale manufacturer (LGB) produced a limited edition release of two "wooden" boxcars with advertising material depicting two brands of cigars.  Released as a two car collector set,  I believe around 1200 sets were released.  At the time,  the company was not in the best financial shape and found themselves in breach of licencing rights.   I believe that a handful of cars were sold to the public with the rest being snapped up at a bargain price by the owner of a large toystore in the Los Angeles area,  Al Kramer.

 

I do not know how he avoided licencing restrictions (he sold them as individual cars and not as the intended two-car set) but Al then sold the cars though his store and on eBay.  I was particularly interested in securing quite a few of the cars,  not for their "collector" value,  but surprisingly the retail cost of the metal wheels on the cars was more than the asking price for the cars.  I removed the metal wheels,  fitted new plastic LGB wheels and then onsold the cars at a reduced price.

 

LGB always had a relatively large range of officially licenced products so it is surprising that the two cigar cars were in breach of licencing rules.  Hornby may well find out that when you tread on someone else's toes that they might wear bigger shoes than you do.

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13 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Just wait until next year.

We will probably have The Great Bear from Hornby.

With the tag line. "Inspired by Paddington".

Bernard 

Surely "Inspired by Brunel" would be more accurate? Designed by Churchward.

Edited by Chris116
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1 hour ago, jonhall said:

Any organisation will only have a finite amount of resource to invest in a project,

 

  • Management capacity,
  • Design capacity
  • Manufacture capacity

 

If I was a Hornby shareholder (particularly if I was the main/majority shareholder which we know they have) I would be asking Hornby management if they really believe that focusing large amounts of all 3 on a project with relatively limited sales potential was really a good use of that time.

 

Management and design capacity are pretty much fixed if you sell one batch of 500, or 10 batches of 500, or many batches of 5000. I already thought that when I watched model world on TV and saw the effort put against the Dublo 'Channel Packet' for a run of just 500 loco's they were making some questionable decisions. Titfield Thunderbolt must be much the same - even if there wasn't another player in the field, there are plenty of other model candidates out there that have the potential to sell many runs in many liveries over more years.

 

The class 66 is a good example of this - totally ubiquitous all over the UK for the last 20 years, and probably for the next 20, in dozens of liveries already, having it in your line up means a batch or two a year with only the livery to adjust, its the sort of loco that Hornby need to have in their range as a staple.

 

A company like Hornby has significant fixed costs to divide across its range, whereas the likes of Rapido can probably get away with taking a more modest profit out of a single batch and then moving on.

 

Jon  

 

This is perhaps where Rapido has the advantage with its method of ordering and sale, it relies on preorders for a lot of items to gauge how many units are actually likely to sell with a minimum break even point. This includes shops who can either risk buying a few for their stock, or to act as pre-order points for Rapido themselves, so far as I am aware .

 

This makes more sense than Hornby's scattergun/constant release approach a bit of an issue, there's stuff that sells regularly and should sell regularly, but are they in sustainable production run numbers? We can see items such as the 66 and Peckett likely do but the B6 and other items do not. Other "core items" like the Terriers and Scotsman might not shift in constant units expected which is a thing Hornby likely grapples with every time they consider a relivery.

 

One would think Hornby might learn from others and adopt a similar (maybe via the Dublo range or another of its many aborbed brands) to take a risk on doing things the same as the smaller boys nipping at its heels. Perhaps Basset Lowke could've come under this brand instead of an interesting, but perhaps ill branded, steampunk range?

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2 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

Just because something may be described as a toy for customs purposes does not mean it is a toy in other contexts.

 

 

 

In the context of UK LAW they are Toys! You can call them what you like (and Hornby etc obviously do) but when it comes to IP rights then both the Rapido and Hornby will be considered toy manufacturers by StudioCannals legal team.

 

Now you are correct to say that when it comes to toys for very small children / toddlers / babies there are additional requirements (mainly to do with the ability to swallow small parts or the composition of the paints / plastic used given the tendency for toys to be chewed). However these requirements are in effect just a more stringent subset of the legal rules which apply to all toys rather than being a stand alone category as it were.

 

 

2 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

Clearly they don't and can't. Lead solder is of course now banned in consumer products in general, not just toys.

 

 

 

Lead solder was outlawed in the the production of toys LONG before moves were made to get rid of it more generally reflecting the perceived higher risks to children compared adults using non toys.

 

 

2 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

Also toys are not unique in being zero rated for duty - plenty of other things are.

 

 

True - but if you actually bother to search the WTO rules you will find that the nearest category a railway model item would fall into if it were not classed as a toy attracts customs charges.

 

There was some discussion on this thread IIRC which illustrated just how complex the issue is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by phil-b259
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