Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[MoonM]

All - 

Imagine there will be a lot of discussion about this new loco so I've setup a new thread as the Hornby new release threads so far are more generalistic (eg to new tooling in general). 

I, for one am very excited, as I have always felt my current black 5 to be a little lacking in detail and weight. However, wondering if anyone knows... 

1. The difference between caprotti and typical valve gear. I'm struggling to see from Hornby's pictures. 

2. All br locos appear to have the early crest in images but only one is marked as 'era 4'. Wondering if the era 5 releases will actually be late crest and the image is wrong, or vice versa? 

Thank you and look forward to hear others' opinions on the model? For instance I was half assuming accurascale would be the first to announce a new black 5.

[Karl]

1 hour ago, MoonM said:

All - 

Imagine there will be a lot of discussion about this new loco so I've setup a new thread as the Hornby new release threads so far are more generalistic (eg to new tooling in general). 

I, for one am very excited, as I have always felt my current black 5 to be a little lacking in detail and weight. However, wondering if anyone knows... 

1. The difference between caprotti and typical valve gear. I'm struggling to see from Hornby's pictures. 

2. All br locos appear to have the early crest in images but only one is marked as 'era 4'. Wondering if the era 5 releases will actually be late crest and the image is wrong, or vice versa? 

Thank you and look forward to hear others' opinions on the model? For instance I was half assuming accurascale would be the first to announce a new black 5.

 

The images that Hornby have used don't show a Caprotti valve geared Black 5 and there were two different designs of this too, a high running plate one and a low running plate one. I don't know any details on them but these are links to photos of the two I am aware of I can't get the links to work but if you copy and paste the below into your browser it should take you to the photo).

 

www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/25145938620 

 

www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/41297020051

 

 

Which Hornby are doing I don't know.

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Karl
Links not working

[Dogmatix]

According to the Hornby video, this model will feature kinematic close-coupling betwixt loco and tender, which I believe is a first in British OO RTR models, and about time too.

[MoonM]

2 hours ago, Karl said:

 

The images that Hornby have used don't show a Caprotti valve geared Black 5 and there were two different designs of this too, a high running plate one and a low running plate one. I don't know any details on them but these are links to photos of the two I am aware of I can't get the links to work but if you copy and paste the below into your browser it should take you to the photo).

 

www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/25145938620 

 

www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/41297020051

 

 

Which Hornby are doing I don't know.

 

Thank you. From my point of view these are probably not for me but I applaud Hornby for the great tooling variety this model should bring. Plus I'm sure this will appeal to a number of other modellers and hope it sells well. For me I would prefer more of a 'boggo' black 5 (low running plate, early crest, lined black, unnamed) in the greater detail this model promises to bring. The chuffing chimney may not be quite my thing but promises of close coupling between loco and tender is. Maybe I'm waiting until next year's releases for the version I'd like but I'm sure it will be along. In the meantime I eagerly await others' experiences with the first batch when they arrive (hopefully) later this year... 

[Pre Grouping fan]

 

58 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

According to the Hornby video, this model will feature kinematic close-coupling betwixt loco and tender, which I believe is a first in British OO RTR models, and about time too.

 

I think accurascale's Manor and KR Models GT3 both have/ will have this feature. 

 

Not forgetting Dapol's Mogul and SECR D Class

[resin001]

2 hours ago, Karl said:

 

The images that Hornby have used don't show a Caprotti valve geared Black 5 and there were two different designs of this too, a high running plate one and a low running plate one. I don't know any details on them but these are links to photos of the two I am aware of I can't get the links to work but if you copy and paste the below into your browser it should take you to the photo).

 

www.flickr.com/photos/robmcrorie/25145938620 

 

www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/41297020051

 

 

Which Hornby are doing I don't know.

 

The Caprotti Black 5 No 44755 has no external valve gear and the low running footplate , only 2 caprotti's with higher footplates were built ( 44686 and 44687 ) I'm currently building the Comet kit as 44757 - so if Hornby actually model the former correctly I will buy one !  

Edited January 10, 2022 by resin001
spelling error

[Johan DC]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

According to the Hornby video, this model will feature kinematic close-coupling betwixt loco and tender, which I believe is a first in British OO RTR models, and about time too.

The new Bachmann V2 has this already, so must be the first?

 

Johan

 

[Ribird]

My question, please correct me if I'm wrong here, Hornby went with the same exact dome/top feed configs as their previous models? LMS has no dome. BR versions all have the middle top feed with back dome. 

[Jub45565]

I'd ignore the photos they've used in terms of detail differences - as noted above the Caprotti example is, from the number they've chosen, a low running plate with no external valvegear, as per the Comet/Wizard kit.

[TravisM]

I’ve quite happy with the announcement and I think, something for everyone, so I’ve happily pre-ordered R30226 BR 45157 “Glasgow Highlander”.  I think R3030225SS having a smoke generator is just a gimmick, and had i ordered it, I would have removed it.

[Chameleon]

Does this mean they are finally going to retool the tender and do away with the obvious step along the chassis?

[farren]

 

5 hours ago, Ribird said:

My question, please correct me if I'm wrong here, Hornby went with the same exact dome/top feed configs as their previous models? LMS has no dome. BR versions all have the middle top feed with back dome. 

They’ve done domless, domed and forward domed boilers.

along with riveted part rivets and smooth tender,  

buffer beams both riveted and smooth.  

atomiser high and low mounted

plus short and tall chimney.

Short and long wheel base.

Along with top and right sided smokebox door centre lamp bracket I don’t think I missed anything.

 

if I remember correctly the the forward dome boilers are post LMS the same as the long wheel base engines. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by farren

[Ribird]

Just now, farren said:

 

They’ve done domless, domed and forward domed, along with riveted part rivets and smooth tender sides,  buffer beams both riveted and smooth.  atomiser high and low plus short and tall chimney. Short and long wheel base. Along with top and right sided smoke door centre lamp bracket I don’t think I missed anything.

But in LMS livery? In recent times, they have done 4 in LMS livery (plus one in railroad range). All of them are domeless (besides the RR one). But in BR tooling, all of what you said for the dome options is true. I cannot say about the atomiser, chimney, wheel base, or lamp brackets. 

 

R2561, R2881 (RR), R3299, R3596, and R3616. 

[farren]

Sorry I was re adjusting my answer i parity sure the lamp bracket was a BR thing too. I’ll check my books tomorrow if someone doesn’t answer before hand

 

forward top feed are post war, domed and domless are pre war LMS however you’ll need to keep a eye on the loco numbers, as some where built after the war. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by farren

[SteamingWales]

Certainly a much needed update to such a ubiqutous loco but part of me feels this is a bit of a missed opportunity for Hornby and they should have gone for a full blown Accurascale type launch with LOADS of different variants etc. offering each with either analogue or all the bells and whistles. 

 

Considering all the variations the tooling can now produce this is probably a significant investment (thinking Bachmann Cl 47 £1 million territory????) so to announce only 4 seems a bit silly

 

Obviously not to immediately flood the market but a bit more variety would have been nice. With the current offering you can't even get a "standard" Walscharts version with BR Early Crest, it's Caprotti or nothing!

 

I for one would bite (and only bite) if a preserved example was released. I'm sure I'm not the only person that would want one of the Riley 5s?

 

 

[steve45]

Agreed, I think Hornby have done this to block Accurascale from doing it and it I doubt if Hornby will do it as well.

[MoonM]

6 minutes ago, steve45 said:

Agreed, I think Hornby have done this to block Accurascale from doing it and it I doubt if Hornby will do it as well.

I think if I were accurascale and also working on a black 5 tooling, I'd still fancy my chances at competing. I'd expect greater quality and fidelity plus better pricing. Still welcome Hornby's attempt though as was a model in need of an update

[w4rrn]

I’ve always thought it’d be an amazing model to have of a capprotti black five and I never thought one be available as a RTR model.
I remember years ago ‘crownline’ produced a conversion kit, but it was extensive remodelling of the original model, which was far beyond my capabilities.
I personally prefer the higher running board version of the capprotti black 5, but 44755 with the double chimney will hopefully be a good model. But from what I can gather from Simon Kohler in todays launch on YouTube the new tooling has been designed so additional versions of the black 5 can be produced relatively easily. So we might see a higher running board version at a later date. 

44755 would be an ideal model though for me as it spent the last few years of its life at Stockport Edgeley 9b, so it would sit nicely with my other late 60’s 9b allocated locomotives.

The only thing that slightly puts me off ordering one is the fact that it’s a ‘web exclusive’ direct from Hornby and will it survive Hornby’s insufficient packaging and possibly get damaged in transit. Shame we won’t be able to purchase it directly from a retail outlet. 
 

check out Phil Waterfield’s pic on Flickr of the prototype 

 

[ELTEL]

What is kinematic close-coupling ?

[scots region]

Well, I’ll wait and see and hope for the best.

[SRman]

12 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

According to the Hornby video, this model will feature kinematic close-coupling betwixt loco and tender, which I believe is a first in British OO RTR models, and about time too.

 

What about Bachmann's N class 2-6-0? That had a loco to tender coupling that opened out on curves and closed up on straights. I think that counts as kinematic. That model dates from the late '90s, from memory.

[phil-b259]

6 hours ago, SteamingWales said:

Certainly a much needed update to such a ubiqutous loco but part of me feels this is a bit of a missed opportunity for Hornby and they should have gone for a full blown Accurascale type launch with LOADS of different variants etc. offering each with either analogue or all the bells and whistles. 

 

 

And how many production slots would have that eaten up?

 

Please remember that Hornby contract out their manufacturing - and as with all such contracting you are then at the whims of what the market can provide. Model railway production is relatively small scale activity in Chinese manufacturing overall and in any case they compete for labour with factories producing electronic consumer goods which are much better earners. In reality therefore flooding the market with Black 5s is going to reduce the amount of other models Hornby can deliver.

 

This is important because Hornby, as some on here are want to remind us from time to time, are a 'whole range' brand and as such they are expected to be able to cater for all segments of the RTR market at once with 'something for everyone'. They also want to try and steel a march on their rivals  - with an unnamed entity supposedly working on a new HST, getting the new HSTs and Mk3s out is going to be important. to Hornby to retain that market segment, but conversely if nobody else is working on a Black 5 then whats the rush?

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, SRman said:

 

What about Bachmann's N class 2-6-0? That had a loco to tender coupling that opened out on curves and closed up on straights. I think that counts as kinematic.

 

It did - but that coupling is better remembered as the cause of derailments than a positive venture and was pretty well rubbished by most of the modelling community.

[SRman]

17 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

It did - but that coupling is better remembered as the cause of derailments than a positive venture and was pretty well rubbished by most of the modelling community.

The derailments were more due to incorrect balancing (the weights were all towards the rear of the tender) on the earlier ones plus a centre axle that couldn't float up and down a little. Having fixed those things, my three have soldiered on with absolutely no problems using the existing tender coupling arrangements for the best part of two decades or more. They were criticised, but mostly for the wrong reasons.

[sandwich station]

7 hours ago, SteamingWales said:

Certainly a much needed update to such a ubiqutous loco but part of me feels this is a bit of a missed opportunity for Hornby and they should have gone for a full blown Accurascale type launch with LOADS of different variants etc. offering each with either analogue or all the bells and whistles. 

 

I read it or heard it on one of the YouTube reports that this new tooling with its variations will allow them to model 800 out of 842 variants.