Hornby 2022 Range - General discussion

[jonhall]

8 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

 I have found that people outside the rmweb are more interested in running trains than counting rivets.  According to the review on page 66 of the January Railway Modeller the OO Works Adams A12 managed to pull seven Pullman cars around the Pecorama loft layout with 1:48 gradients.  This compares with my Hornby Coronation which struggled with six Coronation coaches on a level club layout and with my Hornby T9 which cannot pull its own weight as the gears are not engaging with the motor.  There are no bits for the purchaser to fit on the A12 and the Railway Modeller says the A12 has a good level of detail.  It has etched cab side plates compared with plastic nameplates on the Hornby Merchant Navy. I should think that the A12 with its metal gears will give many more years of reliable service than a Hornby T9 no matter how much detail the latter has to obsess some members of the rmweb.

 

This is a many faceted hobby, I know you are right, that for some people, all they want to see is trains racing round a track, and for others the detail is everything, and there are a whole spectrum of people in between. What Hornby need to do is appeal to as many people in the spectrum as possible. So a model that runs well, and is accurate is going to sell to both ends of the spectrum, and one that runs well but isn't accurate, or is accurate but runs badly, is not going to maximise the potential sales.

 

Jon

[micklner]

32 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

I don't think that Hornby prices have reached the point that people will not be able to afford them.  I have always been interested in an LNER Coronation set and Golden Age have been making this set for several years.  I have seen one demonstrated in my local model railway club and I asked how much they were. From memory I think a pair of articulated coaches was around £200 and the beaver tail was a bit less.  Bearing in mind that I have been looking forward to running a Coronation set behind my A4 Pacific for over 30 years I am willing to pay Hornby's price.

Golden Age have now closed/suspended over disputes with Banks/financial matters.

 

http://www.goldenagemodels.net/golden-age-models-available-stock.html

[Robin Brasher]

26 minutes ago, Shedmaster said:

Hi All, 

 

The issues that EVERYBODY who deals with these clowns are facing are indicative of a brand that is simply pricing itself out of business as people, retailers AND customers, will start to say no thankyou, we do not want your overpriced, badly made, poorly presented products. 

 

My question would be, do RETAILERS actually NEED Hornby, or could they not just dump their account and boycott in protest? Making up for the losses by stocking other brands? 

 

A sneaky 24% in two stages price hike ( 10+14 ) by Hornby in rapid succession has been well and truly noticed, however, it will surely not be ignored?

 

What happens now? 

 

Shed.

 

My local model shop on a preserved railway did stop selling Hornby items but have now started selling them again.  As no-one else produces 00 gauge T9s, M7s, Battle of Britains and models of the rolling stock that runs on the line this seems a sensible idea,

[MrTea]

2 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

I have just bought a 2022 Hornby catalogue from W H Smith at Swanage.

 

It was also available at W H Smith in Newbury yesterday lunchtime. So it's out in the wild.

 

Very similar to previous years presentation.

 

Quite interesting to see the new items alongside the ones in previous year's ranges (although not all are available yet...), you can see the attempt to create a 'complete' system more obviously.

 

I find this year's announcements very much a 'Jekyll and Hyde' collection. There's evidence of the brand listening to the modelling community and planning items we've said we want e.g. the 4-VEP re-runs, the new Mk3s and more for the D&E modeller. But there's also evidence of some really quite blatant attempts to scupper the newer entrants to the market. And there are also some genuinely 'peculiar' pricing decisions e.g. re-runs of the unrebuilt Bulleid coming in at the same price as the newly tooled Turbomotive.

 

What's frustrating as a follower of the brand and a previous purchaser is that there are some nice models in the 2022 range e.g. the 0-6-0 Sentinel and some nice new ideas e.g. the FLIRT and the steam generator but I feel it's somewhat over-shadowed by the 'nonsense'.

[Robin Brasher]

1 hour ago, jonhall said:

 

This is a many faceted hobby, I know you are right, that for some people, all they want to see is trains racing round a track, and for others the detail is everything, and there are a whole spectrum of people in between. What Hornby need to do is appeal to as many people in the spectrum as possible. So a model that runs well, and is accurate is going to sell to both ends of the spectrum, and one that runs well but isn't accurate, or is accurate but runs badly, is not going to maximise the potential sales.

 

Jon

A model railway is not a toy.  It is purchase for keeps and the purchaser wants detail, detail, detail.

[PaulRhB]

4 minutes ago, MrTea said:

And there are also some genuinely 'peculiar' pricing decisions e.g. re-runs of the unrebuilt Bulleid

Isn’t that a Dublo edition with a cast metal body?

[phil-b259]

44 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

  As no-one else produces 00 gauge T9s, M7s, Battle of Britains and models of the rolling stock that runs on the line this seems a sensible idea,

 

Which is the point some (including a certain U-tuber) constantly fail to understand.

 

For much of the Hornby range there are no alternative manufacturers - if you want a M7, an H, a King Arthur, a T9, aS15, Maunsel carriages etc because they are needed for the era / location you model then there is no alternative to Hornby products and prattling on about how much better other Manufacturers are is irrelevant.

Edited January 13, 2022 by phil-b259

[Global]

3 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

I don't think that Hornby prices have reached the point that people will not be able to afford them.

You’re probably right, but for me, it’s not all about affordability - I’m quite fortunate to be able to buy what I like generally - it is as much about value for money.

 

Just because I can afford something doesn’t mean I’m going to buy it regardless. I generally view Hornby as expensive for an, at best, ok product and when the likes of Accurascale and others offer an outstanding product for less that leaves me feeling ripped off.

 

I realise different businesses will have different business models and overheads, but as a consumer that is not my problem really - Hornby for me equals low quality, high price. 

 

For example I had no qualms about ordering a SLW 25 at £320 odd pound as the model looks to be worth it and they’ve put the effort in to get them as good as they possibly can be! I won’t however pay £360 odd pound for a Hornby HST with a massive mould line down the front, saggy windscreen and a lottery on whether it’ll be in the correct colour with logos in the right place! 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Global

[phil-b259]

6 minutes ago, MrTea said:

 

. And there are also some genuinely 'peculiar' pricing decisions e.g. re-runs of the unrebuilt Bulleid coming in at the same price as the newly tooled Turbomotive.

 

 

 

It has been suggested that although the BOB / WC models are older tooling (and so the cost has been recouped) their design is such that they require significantly more factory time to assemble (and thus have a grater staff cost per unit) than more recent designs.

 

If so then its easy to see that it could be a case that newer tooled models can end up coming out with a lower RTR.

 

 

[PaulRhB]

On 07/01/2022 at 08:11, AY Mod said:

 

 

Edit:

Yes sorry I had only seen the rrp on the MN, the BoB is £43 more for some reason? It makes the Dublo one look good value!

 

14 minutes ago, MrTea said:

And there are also some genuinely 'peculiar' pricing decisions e.g. re-runs of the unrebuilt Bulleid coming in at the same price as the newly tooled Turbomotive.

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by PaulRhB

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

 I have found that people outside the rmweb are more interested in running trains than counting rivets.  According to the review on page 66 of the January Railway Modeller the OO Works Adams A12 managed to pull seven Pullman cars around the Pecorama loft layout with 1:48 gradients.  This compares with my Hornby Coronation which struggled with six Coronation coaches on a level club layout and with my Hornby T9 which cannot pull its own weight as the gears are not engaging with the motor.  There are no bits for the purchaser to fit on the A12 and the Railway Modeller says the A12 has a good level of detail.  It has etched cab side plates compared with plastic nameplates on the Hornby Merchant Navy. I should think that the A12 with its metal gears will give many more years of reliable service than a Hornby T9 no matter how much detail the latter has to obsess some members of the rmweb.

 

12 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

A model railway is not a toy.  It is purchase for keeps and the purchaser wants detail, detail, detail.

 

So which one is it? Loads of detail or simple and robust? You have contradicted yourself within an hour.

 

Truth is, this is a multi-fascetted hobby that offers something for everyone. Some want all the detail in the world on a model stright from the box. Others prefer simpler with less vulnerable bits. Some want a lifetime collectable, others (judging from posts on here obesseing about value) see models as transitory things that will be sold off after a while.

 

Any manufacturer will segment the market and aim products at those segments likely to be profitable. At the moment that seems to be the hi-fi end with all the bells and whistles. If there were enough demand for "simple and rugged" then either an existing maker would supply it (Horby already do with Railroad) or a new entrant would arrive to do it.

[Robin Brasher]

Moving on from locomotives I wonder what station the South Eastern Railway buildings on page 203 of the catalogue are based on.  In the past manufacturers have either made generic station buildings which would not look out of place anywhere in Britain or models of stations which have been visited by trains from all over Britain like the Settle and Carlisle Railway, the Bluebell Railway or the Severn Valley Railway.  There are probably more items in the Bachmann range than the Hornby range that would have visited the South Eastern Railway so I wonder what Hornby's thinking was on this subject.

[Robin Brasher]

3 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

 

So which one is it? Loads of detail or simple and robust? You have contradicted yourself within an hour.

 

Truth is, this is a multi-fascetted hobby that offers something for everyone. Some want all the detail in the world on a model stright from the box. Others prefer simpler with less vulnerable bits. Some want a lifetime collectable, others (judging from posts on here obesseing about value) see models as transitory things that will be sold off after a while.

 

Any manufacturer will segment the market and aim products at those segments likely to be profitable. At the moment that seems to be the hi-fi end with all the bells and whistles. If there were enough demand for "simple and rugged" then either an existing maker would supply it (Horby already do with Railroad) or a new entrant would arrive to do it.

It was something like what Simon Kohler said in his programme and was intended as a joke.  I don't think that they are alternatives.  For me I think the ideal locomotive would be something like the locomotives in the Hornby Dublo range that have the weight to pull a nine coach train like the Coronation Scot and a high level of detail.  We do not know how durable these locomotives are but unless they have good motors and gears they will not be as durable or as rugged as the original Hornby Dublo locomotives that are still running after seventy years and owe their owners nothing. I don't regard the T9 on page 66 of the catalogue to be at the hi-fi end of the market in terms of reliability or pulling power regardless of how detailed it is and my kit built Wills T9 has proved to be far more durable and powerful.

[Porcy Mane]

2 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

I don't think that Hornby prices have reached the point that people will not be able to afford them.

 

That will depend on what disposable income an individual has and what financial priorities they have.

[Great Eastern Lady]

Never had any time for gimmicks, TTS, flickering firebox, opening doors etc, all things in my eyes that just add unnecessary cost. Rather just have a nicely detailed loco

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, Shedmaster said:

Hi All, 

 

I sat and typed three angry, anti-Hornby posts a few days ago and then deleted them from RMWeb.

 

What set me off was observing the price of the Hornby Class 60 model, go through the roof in front of my very eyes during the course of one day, whilst I was idly browsing. 

 

I went away and looked into the current and varied issues, rather than just typing in rage. 

 

Now, what you have said in your post, quoted here, is in my unqualified opinion, very well put and aligns with my views completely. 

 

The issues that EVERYBODY who deals with these clowns are facing are indicative of a brand that is simply pricing itself out of business as people, retailers AND customers, will start to say no thankyou, we do not want your overpriced, badly made, poorly presented products. 

 

My question would be, do RETAILERS actually NEED Hornby, or could they not just dump their account and boycott in protest? Making up for the losses by stocking other brands? 

 

A sneaky 24% in two stages price hike ( 10+14 ) by Hornby in rapid succession has been well and truly noticed, however, it will surely not be ignored?

 

What happens now? 

 

Shed.

 

Having been chatting to my local retailer whilst placing my pre-orders, the single biggest issue is not being able to order sufficient quantities of items that they are able to sell all day long, That isn't consistent with the notion that the products are overpriced and shoddy.

[Robin Brasher]

42 minutes ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

That will depend on what disposable income an individual has and what financial priorities they have.

My priority has always been model railways.  When I had my first Hornby Dublo N2 train set in 1955 I had 6p per week supplemented with 10 shillings for Christmas and birthday presents if I behaved myself which was not often so I saved up for two years for a Hornby Dublo Silver King locomotive which had become Mallard by the time I had saved up for the price of around £4.  My parents fined me 7s 6d for doing something terrible so that set me back a couple of months.  Similarly when I was at college I had a grant of £12 per week. There was not much left after spending it on books, clothes, accommodation and food but with a friend we laid some second hand track over some cupboards, my friend bought a second hand M7 for £2 and a Jinty tank for £1.50, some second hand track and some Bilteezi buildings and we were running trains.  If you really want something you will buy it.  For me the LNER coaches are more important than anything else so it is worth sacrificing a foreign holiday for.  My problem is that they may all have sold out if my model shop is in tier 3.  When I was young my favourite model was always available but the problem was finding the money,

[andyman7]

3 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

My priority has always been model railways.  When I had my first Hornby Dublo N2 train set in 1955 I had 6p per week supplemented with 10 shillings for Christmas and birthday presents if I behaved myself which was not often so I saved up for two years for a Hornby Dublo Silver King locomotive which had become Mallard by the time I had saved up for the price of around £4.  My parents fined me 7s 6d for doing something terrible so that set me back a couple of months.  Similarly when I was at college I had a grant of £12 per week. There was not much left after spending it on books, clothes, accommodation and food but with a friend we laid some second hand track over some cupboards, my friend bought a second hand M7 for £2 and a Jinty tank for £1.50, some second hand track and some Bilteezi buildings and we were running trains.  If you really want something you will buy it.  For me the LNER coaches are more important than anything else so it is worth sacrificing a foreign holiday for.  My problem is that they may all have sold out if my model shop is in tier 3.  When I was young my favourite model was always available but the problem was finding the money,

It's also relative to the circumstances of the time - if like me you were saving pocket money in the mid to late 70s you were dealing with rampant inflation unlike the 1950s. But the 1950s had much greater actual shortages of goods - you might have the money but couldn't find the item. Some of the reaction we are seeing now is because we have all pretty much forgotten (or never known) high inflation. I have all the 1970s Triang-Hornby/Hornby Railways catalogues with price lists. Compare the 1970 and 1980 prices and the latter are multiples of the former.

[Chris116]

5 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

It's also relative to the circumstances of the time - if like me you were saving pocket money in the mid to late 70s you were dealing with rampant inflation unlike the 1950s. But the 1950s had much greater actual shortages of goods - you might have the money but couldn't find the item. Some of the reaction we are seeing now is because we have all pretty much forgotten (or never known) high inflation. I have all the 1970s Triang-Hornby/Hornby Railways catalogues with price lists. Compare the 1970 and 1980 prices and the latter are multiples of the former.

I started work in 1972 and by 1975 my salary had gone up by 50% and more than half of that was inflation based rises.

[Porcy Mane]

15 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

My priority has always been model railways. 

 

15 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

For me the LNER coaches are more important than anything else so it is worth sacrificing a foreign holiday for.

 

Sounds like you were comparatively well off.

 

So moving things forward from the rose tinted past to the  inflation prone present with diminishing pension pots; a time when people don't know how high their next energy bill is going to be  (before even thinking about holidays), I suspect a good proportion of Hornby's prospective customer base will be prioritising on more important things than toy trains.

 

P

Edited January 14, 2022 by Porcy Mane

[Robin Brasher]

23 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Having been chatting to my local retailer whilst placing my pre-orders, the single biggest issue is not being able to order sufficient quantities of items that they are able to sell all day long, That isn't consistent with the notion that the products are overpriced and shoddy.

The production runs are much lower now than they were in the past.  The initial production run for the Hornby Dublo 2-6-4T launched in December 1954 was 100,000 and only six came back to the factory with serious defects.  Many are still running now.  I don't know Hornby's present production runs but I recall that Hornby's production run for the Maunsell pull-push sets was 1,000 which was way below the demand.  I think Hornby starts with a low production run and then does another run if demand exceeds supply as with the Coronation Scot coaches on pages 122 and 123 of the catalogue.  I think Hornby also made a second batch of the LSWR 4 wheel coaches as these seem to have sold out but are in plentiful supply now.

[Robin Brasher]

The comments about prices remind me of Wrenn.  They reintroduced the Hornby Dublo locomotives and few people bought them because they were much more expensive than the old Hornby Dublo locomotives and the Tri-ang Hornby locomotives.  Then Wrenn stopped producing their locomotives and rolling stock.  Overnight the prices rocketed and those people who could not afford them were suddenly clamouring to buy them. 

[younGGuns7]

Ok my thoughts on Hornby and the 2022 releases firstly I don’t do steam secondly I don’t do ultra modern. My layout is WR based between 1967-1974 so pre TOPS both blue and pre blue. I currently have 20+ locos on my MPD and none are Hornby which already tells a story and TBH they have only two models which may fit 1 - A pre tops blue 31 especially a skin head but anything would do or a FGYE head coded 31, these from what I can see have never been produced. 2 - The other may be an un refurbed class 50 as delivered to the WR, again have these been done ( possibly D421 but so scarce). The main issue for me is SK attitude when passing from steam to my era this was poor and shows that the intent to fill the gaps is really none existent. Ultimately I have no desire to support Hornby whilst the other main players are providing my requirements, surely there is a market for this era and models I can’t be alone. 

[maico]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

The comments about prices remind me of Wrenn.  They reintroduced the Hornby Dublo locomotives and few people bought them because they were much more expensive than the old Hornby Dublo locomotives and the Tri-ang Hornby locomotives.  Then Wrenn stopped producing their locomotives and rolling stock.  Overnight the prices rocketed and those people who could not afford them were suddenly clamouring to buy them. 

 

According to Maurice Gunter's book Wrenn sold 231,000 locos in total from 1968 to closure in Dec 1992

The best years were 1975-1980 with 116,510 sales. Things tailed off and in their last 5 years they only managed 14,843

[Legend]

13 hours ago, maico said:

 

According to Maurice Gunter's book Wrenn sold 231,000 locos in total from 1968 to closure in Dec 1992

The best years were 1975-1980 with 116,510 sales. Things tailed off and in their last 5 years they only managed 14,843

 I think things dropped off when Lima entered OO , Mainline and Airfix all came on board forcing Hornby to up their game (76-77).  At one stage it was only Hornby and Wrenn that made mainstream models for UK(72-76) . Once there was competion Wrenn effectively waned .

 

I can see where Shedmaster comes from . I think model shops do in general still need Hornby especially the small ones . Rails are big enough to survive and prosper with special commissions . I bet Hattons would still rather be in Tier 1 instead of 3 . I suspect sales of Hornby are much down there .   Although Hornby made a small profit last year they are most certainly not out of the water yet , and yet they appear not to make dealing with them easy . They really need to do something about that and deliver  goods in quantity , stop this rationing of product to model shops . This is just mad .  Was it Invicta in the program that got one Hornby Dublo Merchant Navy but could sell 10 . Hornby are missing out here . Looks like they dont have capacity to deliver .  That said the new catalogue is impressive and still contains J15s and Class 71s that they must still have available to sell. So its not just capacity its making sure they make the correct thing , they made way to many of them . And at least with the 71 that was predictable.

 

I fear for Hornby . Not easy to deal with , deferred deliveries , lack of capacity  , Poor QC (W1 thread).  There is lots of competition now  Accurascale (my great hope!) Cavalex , Rails , Hattons , Dapol  . I'd even include Bachmann here . Although Bachmann are very highly priced even compared to the latest Hornby prices , they do deliver quality consistently .  I fear Hornby maybe about to do another Wrenn. The competition will be too much for them .

Edited January 14, 2022 by Legend