Just what is involved in converting a garage to a layout room?

[ITG]

First, a bit of context.

We are fortunate to be acquiring a second property - call it a holiday home if you like. We plan on having some alterations done, before we make proper use of the property. Next week, I’m meeting architects and builders for preliminary discussions of our wish list, which includes various (mostly) non-model railway needs and wishes. One of said wishes (mine!) is an add-on room 5.5m x 2.5m down one side of the bungalow, thus utilising an otherwise wasted 3m gap all along that side. That could potentially be a normal room, or maybe even more conservatory-like. It would be a dedicated model railway room with no through footfall. But am I anticipating that specific idea may get priced out, versus the list of other ‘domestic’ priorities.

 

If it does fall out of consideration , that leaves two options:

1. Using a spare bedroom which is almost identical in size (3.5m x 2m) to my current railway room at home.

2. Converting the single (1.5 normal length) garage, which is unlikely to be used for anything else of significance. It’s brick built, with solid flat roof, with electrics, pedestrian door, electric garage door and concrete floor. It’s in good order and is about 5m behind the bungalow.

Its helpful to consider the garage in relative terms to my preferred 5.5x2.5m room before  I talk to builders and architects.

 

In space terms, I prefer option 2 to option 1, simply because it’s bigger than what I’ve already got.

I am aware of the pros and cons of garage layouts (temp changes, dust, etc).

So, to the questions.

1. Re insulation, is that walls, floor and ceiling. Is it about a batten framework with insulation foam board (celotex?)

2. What about partitioning off a small section at the garage door end, for bikes and garden equipment etc? With a conservatory-type UPVC wall and window?

3. does anyone have an idea of the likely costs of the required work to the garage? (This is particularly relevant as I can then begin to compare what is said about the alternatives mentioned above).

 

Any feedback can only help, so thanks in advance.

Ian

[Graham108]

A (rough) footprint of the overall property might get some better suggestions. Me, I'd prefer something part of / attached to the house - wouldn't want my railway collection to be more at risk than necessary. 

[ITG]

15 minutes ago, Graham108 said:

A (rough) footprint of the overall property might get some better suggestions. Me, I'd prefer something part of / attached to the house - wouldn't want my railway collection to be more at risk than necessary. 

I get where you’re coming from, but what this forum wouldn’t have the benefit of, is my wife’s counter-views as to what might be feasible, practical or indeed ‘no chance!’ I have to concede that bathrooms, bedrooms, kitchen diners and lounges come way up the priority list compared to my hobby-room.

FWIW, the current 6.15m x 3.4m lounge which runs front to back will be split in two, to form a front bedroom* (3.4m x 2.5m) and , at the rear, a diner area for the adjacent kitchen at the side. The new lounge will be an extension behind this diner area. The new potential model room of 5.5m x 2.5m sits alongside the ex-lounge again front to back of property. Access to it could be either through the diner or from the new lounge.

 

* it’s this room which could be a fallback option for trains, if other options fail.

 

The garage is entirely in the rear garden behind the driveway, which has 5’ double gates.

 

[Nearholmer]

Step 1: find out, ideally by reading published guidance on-line, how the local authority view these things.

 

From previous discussions on here, there seems to be a divide between councils: those which don't much mind what you do in your garage provided that it doesn't pose a danger to anyone else, and provided that you don't use it as living accomodation; and, those which regard insulating it to make it suitable for hobby use (gym, model railway, golf-trophy room etc) as a step towards creating "habitable space", and then require you to follow "full building regs" in terms of insulation stanards and everything else, and perhaps obtain planning consent.

 

That difference of interpretation can hugely alter the scope and cost of work,and it seems to hinge around what they believe is activity "incidental to the enjoyment of a dwelling house", as opposed to making it a "dwelling house", or part of one.

 

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Nearholmer

[BR traction instructor]

We had the floor raised to allow  insulation board to be fitted under the chipboard panels. Garages usually have the thinnest concrete raft floor. The raised floor made the room much warmer.

 

BeRTIe

[ITG]

28 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

how the local authority view these things

Thanks for the tip. Something I’m hoping the local architects should be able to tell me, in the free first visit consultation. I have read that many things now fall into ‘permitted development’ which used to require planning permission, although I recognise Building Regs is a different ball game.

[Nearholmer]

With an existing garage, it begins with a ‘use’ question, I believe. Is what you intend to use it for incidental, rather than dwelling?

[The Johnster]

What you are aiming to do is to get the garage into a state in which it presents an environment simillar to the living area of the property in terms of heating, ventilation, and control of condensation in order to provide conditions suitable for the layout (I had one which tore itself to pieces from expansion, contraction and saturated damp baseboards in my early teenage years, in a garage heated by a parraffin heater, garage conversion courtesy of Buffalo Bill Enterprises PLC aka my dad, who then similarly bodged a loft conversion), and yourself.  What this means is that you may have to convince the local orfority that you are not extending the living area of the property or planning a granny flat or something to let out.  The key to this might be not being able to access it from inside the main part of the property if it is contiguous, and to retain the big garage doors, but you will need to take advice from someone who knows about this sort of thing. 

 

If it is detached, a separate building, then you will need to invest in some fairly heavy duty security measures, and your insurers will rack up the premiums even after this.  If you make it too attractive and comfortable inside, then you might have trouble convincing the LA that it is not intended as part of the dwelling, and other family members will have their beady littles on it for hobby room, pottery kiln, art room, office, studio, sewing room, study, whatevs. 

 

Line it with unpainted eggboxes, good insulation and not attractive... 

[midlandmike]

OK moved down from yorkshire to norfolk 20 years ago only place for the layout was the double length stone built garage bit cold in winter bit hot in summer but its ok no problems with the layout metcalf/card kits unaffected - do keep most of my locos in the house.

[teaky]

I converted our double garage, doing all the work myself just under a decade ago.  It cost less than £4,000 including Building Control approval to create a roughly 5 x 4m room with 1.2m deep storage across the front.

 

The storage is accessed via the garage doors and the room is accessed via what used to be the garage personnel door.

 

I agree strongly with Nearholmer's advice.  The Building Regulations are not especially difficult to follow but they are open to interpretation and this is even more applicable to Planning.  The only way to be certain is to make an appointment with the local authority Planning Department and talk through what you have in mind.  If it sounds like it will be feasible then make another appointment to talk to a local Building Inspector, ideally on site.

 

I did not require planning permission but it differs from area to area.  The Building Inspector was enormously helpful.

 

[mabel]

I have quite a bit of experience in this field. The first thing I would point out is that if your garage is not physically attached to the house, then you can do pretty much what you like with it under the relatively new permitted development rules. However, garages were never built with making them habitable in mind. Concrete floors on garages built in the last 30 years should be a minimum of 4” thick. The raised floor idea mentioned above is a good way to get some insulation under foot. You can build a stud wall to give you a cavity which you can then insulate. Then comes the roof. Under permitted development for outbuildings and garages you can have eaves height of 2.5m (which will give you a regular 2.4m internal height as inside your house). All of this is a lot of work for a building which still might not be draught and damp proof. You could build a new building from contemporary insulated panels without planning permission for probably the same cost as converting your garage. I have attached some pics so you can see the product I’m talking about. It comes in many different colours too. It also comes with a white upvc internal wall covering. No plastering or painting required. I am currently preparing my garden to have a building of this type erected for my railway room at 62’ x 14’. It has been by far the most cost effective way forward. If you are in North Yorks I can recommend a team who can price this up for you. Hope this helps ? 
Tony

[chris p bacon]

3 minutes ago, mabel said:

 The first thing I would point out is that if your garage is not physically attached to the house, then you can do pretty much what you like with it under the relatively new permitted development rules.

 

However, garages were never built with making them habitable in mind. Concrete floors on garages built in the last 30 years should be a minimum of 4” thick. The raised floor idea mentioned above is a good way to get some insulation under foot.

 

 Then comes the roof. Under permitted development for outbuildings and garages you can have eaves height of 2.5m (which will give you a regular 2.4m internal height as inside your house).

 

 You could build a new building from contemporary insulated panels without planning permission

 

Whilst I wouldn't disagree with some points of your post, I'd say that you are a bit 'fast and loose' with a couple of aspects.

 

Permitted development - This isn't new at all and has been around for years.  But there are a lot of things which are precluded from PD and the only way to find out if you can use PD rights is to notify the local authority planning department and apply for a 'Lawful Development Certificate'. Not all houses have PD and as a case in point all of the new developments I have built in the last 14 years have been stripped of their PD rights.

 

Concrete garage floors aren't always 4" thick, they also slope towards the door so that any fuel spill drains from the building.

 

Whilst the eaves can be 2.5M high, if the building is within 2 Metres of the boundary the whole roof cannot exceed 2.5M.

 

This is some advice from the last authority I worked in.

https://ecab.planningportal.co.uk/uploads/miniguides/outbuildings/Outbuildings.pdf

 

I'd suggest that to avoid any problems in the future should you wish to move house,  you contact your LPA to check before committing £££'s to a project.

 

 

 

 

[big jim]

There might be some info of use in my garage conversion thread, some who have already commented here also gave advice in my thread too 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/133641-big-jim’s-garage-conversion-and-layout-thread/

 

I got building regs/planning etc when I did mine so it’s now a ‘proper’ official addition to the house signed off by the building inspector 

Edited January 12, 2022 by big jim

[BLK4Y]

Hi Ian

 

I started building my layout in our ( double) garage 2 years ago. I didn’t convert as such but purchased interlocking square rubber mats from Aldi. They’re approx 2 feet square and provide a floor which is soft on the knees and insulates to a fair degree. They cost at the time about £9 for 6 mats and I’d certainly recommend them.

I had just before then installed a new powered door, of German manufacture, which is of composite nature and insulated. We have a window in the garage so I bought and fitted Perspex secondary glazing which is relatively cheap and again insulates well. I had power points already in the garage so I use multi socket extension bars round the boards. I also purchased on the ‘net a remote control which switches 3 of the plugs from one switch. So easy to switch on/off the power sockets. Cost about £15 and very handy.

Given that I didn’t actually convert the garage I had no planning/ building control issues. I hope this gives some ideas to ponder. All the best

 

BLK4 Y. ( Ian)

[Nearholmer]

I did pretty much exactly as Teaky has described, but to a largish detached single garage, and it didn’t require planning or building control. My neighbour has done the same, using his as a gym. Our council seems to take the view that if it pre-existing, is detached, below 30 sq.m, has no sleeping accommodation, and could easily be returned to use for storing a car, they have better things to worry about.

 

But, not all councils think that way.

[hayfield]

I converted the (conjoined) garage in our previous house 7 or 8 years ago, it ticked the boxes as far as security, damp, insulation etc was concerned, and even though it was not a habitable room, it was a great selling point when we sold the property. Had we been staying I would have added a radiator connected to the central heating system

 

When we moved the grand plan was to have a long shed along the side of the house, both well insulated and secure. As we were having the house extended in the end we opted for a wrap around extension, simply as the costings were similar, but the end room was far more secure, better insulated and cheaper to heat. The cherry on top was it added an extra room increasing the value of the property. The one minor downside was that it moved from permitted development to requiring planning permission. The few weeks extra wait and any minimal extra costs were far out weighted by the increased property and the saving in heating costs ( its now part of the central heating and I doubt if it costs any more to run) as heating an outside shed however well insulated would cost money

 

The biggest benefit was the effect to the remodelling of downstairs of the property, my railway room ended up slightly smaller, but we have quite a large family (kitchen, lounge diner) room and a bigger lounge, rather than an add on extension, plus I just have to open the internal door to my (warm )railway room, rather than going into (or out to) a cold room. 

[hayfield]

Can I say its well worth seeking professional advice, left to my own devices the end result would not have been anywhere near as good as it is, the fee I paid the architect was the best value of anything else I spent, initially I baulked at the removal of 2 internal walls as well as two outer walls and a chimneybreast removal, but he was quite right and the extra few thousand it cost not only impacts favourably on daily life, but increases the property value. We use the downstairs rooms much more in this house than our previous property

 

 

[Metr0Land]

FWIW the first entry in my layout thread covers similar ground to other posters on here.  I'm soooo glad I followed advice and got it well insulated.  It didn't cost more than say 20pct more on the materials and means I can use it in the depths of winter without huge amounts of heating.  In my discussion with local council I was careful to call the conversion a hobby room and I had no problems with permitted development.

 

means

[mabel]

17 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Whilst I wouldn't disagree with some points of your post, I'd say that you are a bit 'fast and loose' with a couple of aspects.

 

Permitted development - This isn't new at all and has been around for years.  But there are a lot of things which are precluded from PD and the only way to find out if you can use PD rights is to notify the local authority planning department and apply for a 'Lawful Development Certificate'. Not all houses have PD and as a case in point all of the new developments I have built in the last 14 years have been stripped of their PD rights.

 

Concrete garage floors aren't always 4" thick, they also slope towards the door so that any fuel spill drains from the building.

 

Whilst the eaves can be 2.5M high, if the building is within 2 Metres of the boundary the whole roof cannot exceed 2.5M.

 

This is some advice from the last authority I worked in.

https://ecab.planningportal.co.uk/uploads/miniguides/outbuildings/Outbuildings.pdf

 

I'd suggest that to avoid any problems in the future should you wish to move house,  you contact your LPA to check before committing £££'s to a project.

 

 

 

 

Fast and loose? I was just trying to generalise rather than give a full blown account. More of pointing the OP in a direction he may not of previously considered or heard of. Should the OP choose that route, the specifics are all available on the govt. planning portal.
I agree with sloping garage floors re fuel spillage (I was a ground worker for 20 years and built a lot of garage bases). I was refering to another post that mentioned concrete garage floors weren’t necessarily of a decent thickness. In my experience, they were at least 4” thick. Different specs for different developers and different local authorities. But again, that would be another reason not to convert a garage (in my opinion).
A lawful development certificate is only needed should you not be confident in reading the very straight forward rules on permitted development.
I was just giving an alternate suggestion, based on my own experiences rather than a full blown essay on detail. 

[chris p bacon]

2 hours ago, mabel said:

A lawful development certificate is only needed should you not be confident in reading the very straight forward rules on permitted development.
I was just giving an alternate suggestion, based on my own experiences rather than a full blown essay on detail. 

 

Agree with the rest of your post except the above. I've just moved from an area where I built in Bedford Borough, Central Beds and Huntingdonshire and all 3 expected the homeowner to obtain a LDC. Failure to do so gives you all sorts of problems at sale.

[mabel]

6 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Agree with the rest of your post except the above. I've just moved from an area where I built in Bedford Borough, Central Beds and Huntingdonshire and all 3 expected the homeowner to obtain a LDC. Failure to do so gives you all sorts of problems at sale.

Here in North Yorkshire, if you are confident that you fully understand the pd rules on the govt planning portal, (and you haven’t strayed from them!) the local planning office absolutely can not make problems at point of sale as the LDC is neither mandatory or legally enforceable. I am speaking from experience btw.

I do agree with you that most folk would be better off having a little chat with the planning office before starting on their project. 
 

[chris p bacon]

20 minutes ago, mabel said:

the local planning office absolutely can not make problems at point of sale

 

I should have been a bit clearer, the issue at point of sale is not from the LPA but if a purchasers solicitor spots an extension and asks for the supporting documentation for it. Although it might be PD, a solicitor is not going to take a vendors word for it and ask for supporting documentation.  And while a LDC is not mandatory it certainly makes it an easier process. I have been building and selling houses for several decades now and I have seen chains fall apart for lack of simple documentation (always being the last in the chain you can see the car crash coming when a vendor sticks their head in the sand) an LDC is a simple document which avoids such situations.

 

Having moved to the Borders 6 weeks ago PD is different here to England with planning being much stricter (and slower.....1 year and 5 days for my application and 4 months for a warrant..so far...)  but at least the planning bribery ..educational supplement is less.

 

[njee20]

Going through the same thing at the moment. I just emailed our local building control department, and got a very quick reply. We’ve got a detached double-length garage and I want to convert half of it, could just build the layout as it is, but nowt wrong with making it a more pleasant place to spend time!

 

FWIW here (Horsham, West Sussex) I could do the conversion, including moving the personnel door within PD, but adding a window needs approval, but not full planning permission.   

[AndyB]

When I insulated my garage I put a false floor in. I did this with beams laid direct onto the floor with Celotex between the beams and chipboard on top. Warm and comfortable as there's some spring in it. 

 

Of course the concrete floor slopes towards the main garage door. And so the raised floor and the kitchen units I put on top slope too. When it comes to the layout that sits on top of the kitchen units I bring it back to the level using adjustable feet. Infact the kitchen units also had adjustable feet to help with this levelling up - to an extent.

 

Over a period of years the unit's have warped quite a bit; probably the weight of the layout and the clobber I keep in the cupboards.

 

In time I'll probably replace them with adjustable shelving battens screwed to the wall with the layout sat on brackets. 

 

Good luck with your conversion.