Identifying a train Plawsworth Viaduct southbound 3M27 on 7 September 1968.

[18B]

EVening,

 

rail photoprints has a pic of D77 'Royal Irish Fusilier' crossing Plawsworth Viaduct with southbound 3M27 on 7 September 1968.

 

Would anyone happen to know what this train is from to etc? 

 

TIA. 

 

[stovepipe]

Photo embedded for convenience.

 

 

I think this is potentially the regular 5M48 Heaton - Red Bank CS working, with the head code from an earlier working. Certainly there nothing obvious in the WTT for the following year. Strangely I have come across a 3M27 working but it was for a Guide Bridge to Nottingham parcels working - not sure why that would be under a M route code, but there it is. With D77 from Toton, its not impossible that it could have been used for that working.

[Enterprisingwestern]

6 hours ago, stovepipe said:

Strangely I have come across a 3M27 working but it was for a Guide Bridge to Nottingham parcels working - not sure why that would be under a M route code, but there it is

 

Because for part of it's journey it travelled on the Eastern region.

 

Mike.

[DY444]

6 hours ago, stovepipe said:

Photo embedded for convenience.

 

 

I think this is potentially the regular 5M48 Heaton - Red Bank CS working, with the head code from an earlier working. Certainly there nothing obvious in the WTT for the following year. Strangely I have come across a 3M27 working but it was for a Guide Bridge to Nottingham parcels working - not sure why that would be under a M route code, but there it is. With D77 from Toton, its not impossible that it could have been used for that working.

 

The "M" will be because it would have been routed via the ER (for example Hope Valley - Dore South - Chesterfield) and then back onto the LMR.

[Enterprisingwestern]

4 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

The "M" will be because it would have been routed via the ER (for example Hope Valley - Dore South - Chesterfield) and then back onto the LMR.

 

Hence the reason for St Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly trains having M headcodes also.

 

Mike.

[The Pilotman]

Could it not be just a bog-standard Newcastle to Liverpool train with an erroneous headcode in the box?

[Phil Bullock]

Agree with Pilotman …. It looks like the formation of a Cross Country class 1 working rather than the Heaton to Red Bank vans ….. although the second CK is the wrong way round, usually marshalled with first class portions adjacent.

[Enterprisingwestern]

56 minutes ago, The Pilotman said:

Could it not be just a bog-standard Newcastle to Liverpool train with an erroneous headcode in the box?

 

33 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

Agree with Pilotman …. It looks like the formation of a Cross Country class 1 working rather than the Heaton to Red Bank vans ….. although the second CK is the wrong way round, usually marshalled with first class portions adjacent.

 

Assuming the first blind has a faulty roller mechanism, is anybody with a WTT able to confirm if there is a suitable 1M27?

 

Mike.

[Phil Bullock]

Will check mine Mike … would have NE - SW but not trans pennine

[stovepipe]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Because for part of it's journey it travelled on the Eastern region.

 

Mike.

 

Yes that thought occured to me in the wee hours of this morning, and the only other option, via the ex-MR line through MIllers Dale, had closed the previous year.

 

2 hours ago, The Pilotman said:

Could it not be just a bog-standard Newcastle to Liverpool train with an erroneous headcode in the box?

 

Yes perhaps that is more likely - but not sure it matches very well with the planned formations. The day given was a Saturday, the last one of the summer timetable, so would expect to see:

 

08.42  BG+SK+CK+FK+RMB+2TSO+2SK+TSO+BSK (11)

09.50  BG+2CK+RB+RUO+2TSO+2SK+BSK (10)

15.42  BSK+CK+FK+RU+2TSO+2SK+BSK (9)

 

However there was a 16.15 to Bristol:

2SK+BSK+SK+RMB+2CK+2SK+BG (10) on leaving Newcastle, which matches pretty well, except the formation appears to be in reverse - which was always possible at Newcastle.

 

[bécasse]

Given that this is the last Saturday of the summer timetable, and given the head code display, if correct, I wonder whether this could be a stock balancing train.

 

Back in 1968 there were plenty of trains that ran only on summer (or even part-summer) Saturdays linking major conurbations and seaside resorts, some managed an out and back working on the same day but some didn't, with two sets of stock only making one single journey a week (one-way one week, the other way the next) and spending the rest of the time in carriage sidings. At the (beginning and) end of the summer timetable one set of stock for these single-trip trains usually had to be worked ECS in order to form, or after forming, a revenue train in the opposite direction (unless it had been possible originally to provision the stock from each end). Alternatively, it could just be a stock move resulting from differences between the summer and winter timetables - although these usually resulted from significant timetable changes which more commonly occurred at the start, rather than the end, of the summer timetable.

 

Such one-off stock balancing trains wouldn't appear in the WTT but only in STNs for the day concerned, and would be allocated any otherwise unused train number for the head code.

 

[stovepipe]

That may be the case but for the fact that all of the non-ECML trains leaving Newcastle, and planned to contain a full BG, ran all year round, just with less second class coaches outside the summer season. None of the summer-dated trains to Paignton, Llandudno, Stranraer, Eastbourne, Portsmouth, Margate, Torquay, and Bournemouth used a BG - in fact they used the same two or three sets on various days of the week.

[TheSignalEngineer]

23 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

None of the summer-dated trains to Paignton, Llandudno, Stranraer, Eastbourne, Portsmouth, Margate, Torquay, and Bournemouth used a BG

Probably not until the 1970s or early 1980s but then common on dated trains elsewhere  using stock which didn't have a Saturday turn and didn't have any brake vehicle with passenger accommodation in the weekday formation. They even included in later years a WCML set with a DVT travelled on from Bodmin Parkway to Birmingham. There was also an SO Coventry - Holyhead which had a BG in the formation. Used it to Llandudno Junction a couple of times.

Edited January 13, 2022 by TheSignalEngineer

[18B]

in conclusion, what seems the most likely train? it seems that the headcode is wrong for the train? 

[stovepipe]

I think the 16.15 Newcastle - Bristol is a good shout. There isn't much in the way of shadows, but what there is, seems to indicate it's afternoon at this location. I don't have a WTT for 1968, but the same train was 1V99 in 1970.

[Phil Bullock]

3 hours ago, stovepipe said:

I think the 16.15 Newcastle - Bristol is a good shout. There isn't much in the way of shadows, but what there is, seems to indicate it's afternoon at this location. I don't have a WTT for 1968, but the same train was 1V99 in 1970.

Was the same train in 68 wtt every day Monday to Saturday. Sunday 1V99 started from Bradford . Difficult to see but don’t think maroon catering vehicle is an RMB , looks more like an RU or RB perhaps? 

[stovepipe]

It is very difficult to say, even on a blow up, but there does seem to be a number of roof vents on the nearest end of the Maroon coach. The underframe area doesn't seem be completely filled with equipment which might point to an RU as you say. However I'm none too clear on what the roofs on RUs looked like before the rebuilding programme of the 1970s.

 

I also hadn't appreciated that there are no more coaches after the bridge, so the consist is 8 coaches, which the 16.15 to Bristol was due to be every day apart from Summer Saturdays (when the two SOs were added at the front, or rear in this case).

Edited January 14, 2022 by stovepipe