French parcels trains?

[10800]

With my UK modelling hat on, I'm a fan of parcels trains, but I can't recall seeing any photos of such trains in France. Did they have them - early SNCF period especially?

 

 

[Fat Controller]

They existed, but I suspect relied on (nominally) 'freight' stock, rather than hand-me-down passenger vehicles. There were a lot of large bogie vans, often referred to as 'salles danseuse', which worked 'messageries( parcels and sundries)' , timed as ME120, ME 140 and ME160 (the numbers refer to the maximum speed)  between major centres. These days, the traffic travels mainly by road or container, though there are vestigal running from the South East and South West to the immense wholesale market at Rungis, on the southern edge of Paris.

[jivebunny]

SNCF had a large fleet of dedicated postal stock, but this was mainly for letters (possibly light parcels). As Brian says, parcels were generally transported in freight wagons, both bogie and four-wheel stock, including after the handing over of such services to the newly-created SERNAM in 1970 (French equivalent of RES). Typical stock would have been Gahss or Gahkkss bogie wagons (which LS Models produce), or RIV-type four-wheel wagons, produced over the years by Jouef, Roco and probably others in various brown or white liveries.

 

Here's one which I gave to my grandfather as a gift many years ago, since he worked for SERNAM during his final years at SNCF. Note the two different SERNAM logos which coexisted on the railway for some time...

 

 

Straying away from "early SNCF", La Poste did of course have some rather high-speed parcels wagons from 1984 to 2015. Lima produced a couple of versions in the various liveries they carried, this the high-spec Lima Collection model from the 1990s, which is now a complete 2+8 set and took me YEARS to put together from various second-hand purchases (Hornby-Jouef have now re-released this using the same model, but not the same shades of yellow...)

 

 

Alan

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by jivebunny

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, jivebunny said:

SNCF had a large fleet of dedicated postal stock, but this was mainly for letters (possibly light parcels). As Brian says, parcels were generally transported in freight wagons, both bogie and four-wheel stock, including after the handing over of such services to the newly-created SERNAM in 1970 (French equivalent of RES). Typical stock would have been Gahss or Gahkkss bogie wagons (which LS Models produce), or RIV-type four-wheel wagons, produced over the years by Jouef, Roco and probably others in various brown or white liveries.

 

Here's one which I gave to my grandfather as a gift many years ago, since he worked for SERNAM during his final years at SNCF. Note the two different SERNAM logos which coexisted on the railway for some time...

 

 

Straying away from "early SNCF", La Poste did of course have some rather high-speed parcels wagons from 1984 to 2015. Lima produced a couple of versions in the various liveries they carried, this the high-spec Lima Collection model from the 1990s, which is now a complete 2+8 set and took me YEARS to put together from various second-hand purchases (Hornby-Jouef have now re-released this using the same model, but not the same shades of yellow...)

 

 

Alan

 

I always thought of SERNAM as being more akin to National Carriers, dealing with 'sundries' traffic, rather than just parcels. 

 

[10800]

Thanks guys. I have a brown-liveried bogie postal vehicle (LS I think) which I can run with passenger trains, and a few wagons like the photo above which I presume aren't NPCS so would run in goods  trains.

 

I also have this rather nice vehicle (REE)

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by 10800
typo

[Gordonwis]

On 13/01/2022 at 15:35, 10800 said:

With my UK modelling hat on, I'm a fan of parcels trains, but I can't recall seeing any photos of such trains in France. Did they have them - early SNCF period especially?

 

 

 

 

Put simply, separate 'Parcels' trains in the same style as on BR didn't really exist in France, as postal trains and coaches covered the ground for both letters and parcels. Parcels were transported in two ways; various types of 'van' aka fourgon attached to passenger trains; or block 'postal' trains, usually a mixture of 'sorting' cars called 'Ambulant' or PA (BR TPO style for letters) and 'bulk carriage' cars known as 'Allege' aka PE (for sacked mail)

Edited January 16, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Allegheny1600]

Original photo by Michael J. Collins

 

Original photo by “on tour with the class 13 army”

 

I remember drawing in to Bordeaux station and seeing long lines of these bogie vehicles, both in maroon and the later yellow as above. I can’t recall full trains passing me, my usual memory is of just one or two vehicles at the head of a regular passenger train.

 I have a Lima H0 example of the more modern vehicle and there are various examples of the clerestory vehicles, no doubt best from Rails Express Europe.

Cheers,

 John E

 

[10800]

Thanks John. I think there is an REE one, but mine is from LS Models

 

[Gordonwis]

On 16/01/2022 at 18:14, Allegheny1600 said:

 

Original photo by Michael J. Collins

 

 

Original photo by “on tour with the class 13 army”

 

I remember drawing in to Bordeaux station and seeing long lines of these bogie vehicles, both in maroon and the later yellow as above. I can’t recall full trains passing me, my usual memory is of just one or two vehicles at the head of a regular passenger train.

 I have a Lima H0 example of the more modern vehicle and there are various examples of the clerestory vehicles, no doubt best from Rails Express Europe.

Cheers,

 John E

 

 

 

There were a small number of all postal trains (Paris - Bordeaux was one of the routes) but as I understand it they only ran at night 

 

The upper photo shows the 26.4m 'modern' type (later sold to Switzerland) . The lower photo shows three of the clerestory type together, the furthest from the camera is the letter sorting type (PA). the two nearer ones are PE with the two doors that were added to simplify loading and unloading of bagged mail.

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Andy Hayter]

16 hours ago, 10800 said:

Thanks John. I think there is an REE one, but mine is from LS Models

 

 

Yes REE have produced the 16m and 21m ambulant La Postes cars.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Andy Hayter

[Allegheny1600]

10 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

 

There were a small number of all postal trains (Paris - Bordeaux was one of the routes) but as I understand it they only ran at night 

 

 

Thanks Gordon,

That makes sense as I had to travel from Marmande by train to do my spotting at Bordeaux, I was never able to spend as long as I wanted there, so I must have missed an awful lot.

Cheers,

 John 

[Fat Controller]

11 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

 

There were a small number of all postal trains (Paris - Bordeaux was one of the routes) but as I understand it they only ran at night 

 

The upper photo shows the 26.4m 'modern' type (later sold to Switzerland) . The lower photo shows three of the clerestory type together, the furthest from the camera is the letter sorting type (PA). the two nearer ones are PE with the two doors that were added to simplify loading and unloading of bagged mail.

 

The trains also seemed to be loaded and unloaded at locations out of the public eye. There was one just north of Charolais stabling point, next to Gare du Lyon, whilst the one at Lyon was at Guilliotiere, where the lines from the south for Part Dieu and Perrache diverge. There was a depot at the Paris end of Villeneuve St George yard, but I suspect this was for maintenance rather than commercial use.

[Gordonwis]

On 18/01/2022 at 11:21, Fat Controller said:

The trains also seemed to be loaded and unloaded at locations out of the public eye. There was one just north of Charolais stabling point, next to Gare du Lyon, whilst the one at Lyon was at Guilliotiere, where the lines from the south for Part Dieu and Perrache diverge. There was a depot at the Paris end of Villeneuve St George yard, but I suspect this was for maintenance rather than commercial use.

 

 

It was all known as Charolais. It was also the car sleeper loading point in the 1960s AFAIR

 

 

https://p8.storage.canalblog.com/87/29/129048/48048257.jpg

 

 

[Gordonwis]

On 18/01/2022 at 10:17, Allegheny1600 said:

Thanks Gordon,

That makes sense as I had to travel from Marmande by train to do my spotting at Bordeaux, I was never able to spend as long as I wanted there, so I must have missed an awful lot.

Cheers,

 John 

 

 

If you want to research French postal depots, search on 'Centre de Tri' which is the French phrase for a postal sorting and distribution depot