Wish for more N-gauge models from Revolution

[PaulCheffus]

3 hours ago, Stuart A said:

 

TEA BOC Tanks

 

Hi

 

That will happen just after I finish my rake of eight converted from the Farish 100t tankers.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[RichardT]

On 15/01/2022 at 20:35, AndrueC said:

so most of the people modelling in N are relatively young and mostly post-steam.

I keep reading this sentiment, or a variation of it, all over the place in online forums - that only people who remember the steam railway will want to model it. On what evidence is it based?  If this “memory test” is true then presumably there is no market at all for models of First or Second World War aircraft, or fighting vehicles, or ships? Or for models of sailing ships, or Napoleonic-era model soldiers etc. etc.

 

People will always be interested in history and in periods before they were born.  Anecdote is not a substitute for data, but I was born in 1962, and my modelling interest is the LNER and the NER, not BR blue, BR Sectorisation and privatisation.  (I’m interested in them in reality, but not for modelling.)
 

The problem, in N at least, is a lack of supply, and especially a lack of supply of the simpler “bread and butter” steam locos.  Union Mills partly fill that gap, although they need a lot of work to bring their appearance up to match their pulling power, and the wheel standards now look very coarse.  But the entry of Sonic (brokered by Revolution) and Rapido into the market give some hope.  If only Farish would re-run some of their extensive steam back catalogue and bring some of their older models up to modern standards (the Crab, the V2 and the Midland 4-4-0).  Also, it would be good if they could decide whether they are either going to fill some of the obvious other gaps (an LNER V1/3 2-6-2T would be top of my list) OR step out of the way and let others have a go.  Build it and they will come!

 

Richard

Edited January 18, 2022 by RichardT
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[DavidMcKenzie]

20 minutes ago, bmthtrains - David said:

As we are wish listing, I will add my usual requests for a new 90 and a 325, and some OTP. The Harsco Rail Grinder would be a relatively simple one to start with as it’s nice and boxy. The price of an RTR tamper such as the 09-3X or similar would likely be horrifyingly expensive but the Grinder shouldn’t be too bad.

 

David 

Can only agree with that list, especially the 90 and 325. 

[njee20]

4 hours ago, Stuart A said:

 

 

JHA ARC low track force hoppers

 

Given the guys seem to have cracked the inside bearings on the mk5s, and the forthcoming 59 I’d say that’s a racing certainty. Plus I’m finally doing my own rake of 3D printed ones rather than selling them, I’ll make sure I finish them to hurry Revolution along 

[Flying Pig]

As in 4mm, I'd like to see the 21ton hoppers tackled by someone as the Dapol model is getting very long in the tooth and the available kits are somewhat challenging.

 

Also, the Vanwide backdated to vacuum-braked condition.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I still reckon a class 377 would hit the mark. 

[Crepello]

On 15/01/2022 at 20:06, maq1988 said:

I've been thinking for a few days that more N would be nice across the board, actually just some re-runs from manufacturers would be welcome.

 

For those people getting into N there's little choice of steam motive power right now. I guess if there's no stock one assumes N is still popular, which can only be a good thing

Sorry, I don't get your point about little choice of steam power. A quick glance at the Farish and Dapol websites will show quite a few.......

[Kris]

24 minutes ago, Crepello said:

Sorry, I don't get your point about little choice of steam power. A quick glance at the Farish and Dapol websites will show quite a few.......

Farish's website shows that there are 9 steam locos that have arrived (covering 5 classes). There are a further 11 awaiting arrival (covering a further 4 classes). 

Dapol list a further 5 classes of steam loco in their shop available to purchase (however one of these does not link to any locos). They have one further stream loco available for pre order. 

 

This gives a total of 15 classes of steam loco available across the big 4 companies and BR. 

Between 1902 and 1948 the GWR alone produced 49 different classes of steam locomotive (admittedly many people would be hard pressed to tell the difference between some classes). Skimming about the net it would appear that the other companies produced at least this amount and in some cases significantly more. BR then produced their own classes with the standards, a further 12 classes. If we assume that there were 300 classes of Steam Locos produced for main line companies in the UK in the 60 years between 1900 and 1960 then at the moment there are only 5% of those locos available (from Dapol and Bachmann). If Dapol and Bachmann were to release their back catalogues we would get to between 15 and 20% of classes. 

 

[njee20]

That strikes me as a somewhat distorted way of gauging availability, even if statistically accurate.  

[Kris]

Looking further at diesel and electric locos (not counting DMU's or EMU's)

 

Farish - 6 classes show as arrived. 8 Classes awaiting or have dates for arrival. 

Dapol - 12 classes show in their shop with 1 further available for preorder. 

 

Br have had 105 different classes of diesel or electric locos in the last 60 years. (including all the one offs and various  classes of the similar looking shunters. 

 

This gives nearly 30% availability of classes based on current or expected models. The back catalogues would increase this a little but not to the extent to the steam locos.

 

The DMU / EMU figures are not nearly as pretty from Bachmann and Dapol. At least Revolution are helping the cause here.  

[Revolution Mike]

I think that is a reflection of batch production more than anything else.

 

My argument would be that you can have either batch production of a wider range of items or near continuous availability of a much more limited choice of models.  It is frustrating looking for something that is from an out of stock batch!

[maq1988]

6 hours ago, Crepello said:

Sorry, I don't get your point about little choice of steam power. A quick glance at the Farish and Dapol websites will show quite a few.......

 

Try buying them. Rails have 15 variations of Farish steam locos listed. One is sold out. 11 are 'Pre-order' with some shipping date in 2022, three are in stock. Two of those are WD Austerity locos. Basically the same with Kernow, three Austerity's and some N Class.

 

TMC - WD Austeritys, and some N Class.

 

I actually model BR Blue and was going to model the midland mainline. How long do I wait for a Peak? Class 25? 31? 37? Coaches? 

 

I've missed this production run, but now it's potentially a multi-year wait, if at all. Maybe I'm being impatient but if you want hobbies to grow people need to be able to get hold of things.

 

This is the Revolution area - I don't model anything really modern but I've got some B tanks and they are nice.

[njee20]

I’d say the situation with Revolution is identical, if not more acute. It’s not like you can buy the back catalogue. You may manage to pick items up at retailers upon delivery now at least. They did a batch of TEA tankers what… 6 years ago. They trade on eBay for 2-3x original cost, yet the demand wasn’t there for a rerun when the market was asked a couple of years ago. 

 

That’s not a complaint, it’s a side effect of the batch production process as Mike has said, but I don’t think Revolution provide a solution to the lack of ongoing availability. 

 

[Revolution Ben]

Hi all,

 

I don't think many appreciate that assembling N gauge steam locomotives with outside motion is a painstaking task and requires significantly higher levels of monitoring and checking than, say, diesel or electric locomotives in N.

 

Apart from the dexterity and consistency required of those assembling the parts, skilled production line supervisors who can ensure reject numbers stay within tolerable levels are relatively rare.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Revolution Ben

[AndrueC]

10 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

Hi all,

 

I don't think many appreciate that assembling N gauge steam locomotives with outside motion is a painstaking task and requires significantly higher levels of monitoring and checking than, say, diesel or electric locomotives in N.

Funnily enough I was thinking something similar. Having thought a bit about building myself an APT-E out of card it has occurred to me that modern locos are inherently easier to build. They are after all essentially just squared off tubes with windows and relatively minor detailing(*).

 

And then you have the whole BtB issue. Buy a modern-era loco and unless it's a closely coupled HST you can be pretty sure it will handle anything down to at least a 2nd radius curve. But a 4-6-2 has to be properly assembled if it's to run (I have a brand new Dapol Hall that can't handle my layout which is entirely 2nd radius curves) and if you are using Peco Setrack you're looking at first radius curves on turnouts. My 4-6-2 noticeably grumbles going over those.

 

And speaking as an N enthusiast I know that while it's a bit fiddly putting a bogied diesel onto the rails it's nothing compare with my 4-6-2 which is more fiddly and a lot harder to hold due to the need to avoid damaging the valve gear.

 

(*)This is in no way trying to trivialise the work of those who produce such models

Edited January 20, 2022 by AndrueC

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, AndrueC said:

it has occurred to me that modern locos are inherently easier to build. They are after all essentially just squared off tubes with windows and relatively minor detailing(*).

 

(*)This is in no way trying to trivialise the work of those who produce such models

Very few are that simple. Take an example like a Class 47. Looking side-on the lower half of the cab slopes back, right? Not in a straight line though, the profile of that slope is convex.* In plan view the two cab sides taper until they reach the rounded corners then sweep across the front in another gentle convex curve, so no part of that front lower panel is flat either vertically or horizontally. The two windscreens are flat but the surrounds they are set into aren't so there are slight 'eyebrows' above each, deeper in the middle of the screen. There is a dome over the cab roof that has tighter radii at the leading corners and a second, shallower dome shape over the horn grille. Admttedly the two main bodysides are relatively straightforward, though getting neat lines of grilles into the shoulders of the roof presents a challenge.

Possibly the nearest to a simple shape is the old Class 58, though that was designed for easy fabrication in real life. That one could be said to be easy. Well, except fitting a chassis into the narrow bonnet.

 

*  Same on a Hymek, which is one area where the Dapol model falls down.

[AndrueC]

35 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

Very few are that simple.

But they are simpler than a steam locomotive, to say nothing of additional fittings such as pipes whistles etc. I know that any loco model takes time and skill to reproduce, hence my comment about not trivialising it.

 

However the difficulty is greater for a steam locomotive.

 

My idea of modelling a 'look alike' APT-E is quite feasible and might take less than a day, a dozen pieces of card and a donor chassis (my HST probably since I've always thought the HST a boring design). It wouldn't be prototypical but once painted it would pass muster for someone who just likes the look of the thing. But trying to do the same thing for a Princess Elizabeth would be a much larger project and certainly would take longer than a day to complete.

Edited January 20, 2022 by AndrueC

[John M Upton]

Wagons!!!  The Sonic VEA Vanwide is lovely and opens the door for more similar generation air braked freight wagons.  Yes Farish do make some (Their OBA and OCA are good) but the rest of the Farish offerings like the ancient clunky Poole era OAA and VAA (and relatives) are ripe for the picking, long operational life, multiple liveries, etc, etc, many even share broadly the same chassis.

 

[Roy L S]

14 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

Hi all,

 

I don't think many appreciate that assembling N gauge steam locomotives with outside motion is a painstaking task and requires significantly higher levels of monitoring and checking than, say, diesel or electric locomotives in N.

 

Apart from the dexterity and consistency required of those assembling the parts, skilled production line supervisors who can ensure reject numbers stay within tolerable levels are relatively rare.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

Hopefully people on here do appreciate that Ben, but you make a fair point, in fact equally there are probably many who do not appreciate that models are largely hand assembled. That said, I am sure the process is helped by a range of assembly jigs for valve-gear etc.

 

I would question whether the same argument holds quite to the same extent for a simple 0-6-0 and it would be lovely to some more of those - there being plenty of prototypes still to go for.

 

Or even perhaps something like a Robinson 2-8-0 with comparatively simple outside motion. 

 

Regards

 

Roy

[Revolution Ben]

12 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

I would question whether the same argument holds quite to the same extent for a simple 0-6-0 and it would be lovely to some more of those - there being plenty of prototypes still to go for.

 

Regards

 

Roy

 

Hi Roy,

 

Yes, I would like to think that those on here would understand the issues but I thought it helpful to explain why Revolution have not considered (and are not considering at this time) any locomotives with outside valve gear.

 

For steam era locomotives I think Sonic Models offer perhaps the best hope.  The founder Sam is a steam enthusiast himself and as many will know he was formerly at Farish where he designed the very well regarded Princess Coronation locomotives. 

 

Sam has so far produced an 0-6-2 56xx and his next model is the 0-6-0 J50.  Going forward he plans to grow his range in sensible, incremental steps.  But I believe the eventual target is large steam locomotives.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[woodenhead]

Personally I like the idea of RevolutioN sticking to post steam stuff and Sonic concentrating on the steam era - it gives a clear distinction and there is a crossover period where both companies products complement.

 

Likewise Accurascale and RevolutioN working together on some models like the Mk5s - it reduces risk, it delivers models to a wider audience and gives the N gauge world some fantastic models that would not be done by Bachmann without an OO equivalent.

 

We should also be pleased to see Rails' approach to new entrants with exclusives etc as that is cultivating a thriving market now.

 

However, Farish need to hurry up an announce the Peaks back in N so we can get that elephant out of the room.

[Roy L S]

5 hours ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hi Roy,

 

Yes, I would like to think that those on here would understand the issues but I thought it helpful to explain why Revolution have not considered (and are not considering at this time) any locomotives with outside valve gear.

 

For steam era locomotives I think Sonic Models offer perhaps the best hope.  The founder Sam is a steam enthusiast himself and as many will know he was formerly at Farish where he designed the very well regarded Princess Coronation locomotives. 

 

Sam has so far produced an 0-6-2 56xx and his next model is the 0-6-0 J50.  Going forward he plans to grow his range in sensible, incremental steps.  But I believe the eventual target is large steam locomotives.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Hi Ben

 

I am happy to see what Sonic come up with and I would not expect steam to be on your "to do" list for reasons you have given previously. I would love a 1st Gen DMU to feature, hopefully a suburban type like a 117 or something like the 21/29 - there are plenty of transition DMUs especially on the list plus the fab wagons. I am looking forward to my Bo-Rails as well as my 128, so no complaints here if you keep right on with non-steam and leave that to others, I just wish Farish would wake up a bit..

 

Regards

 

Roy

[maq1988]

Apologies if the mention of steam has shifted the thread somewhat from it's original intention. Ben you are right - I'm not a manufacturing expert but I can imagine putting together outside valve gear is a nightmare. Modern image N gauge modellers need representing as well and I suspect was part of why Revolution came to be.

 

It's healthy for the hobby to have multiple successful manufacturers of any era. It generates more interest overall and there's some great layouts, including modern image, that showcase N to it's best.

[ohlavache]

I'm dreaming of an 0-6-0ST steam locomotive, such as the Peckett class W4.

They seem very popular in OO and the should be popular in N as well.

[Crepello]

14 hours ago, ohlavache said:

I'm dreaming of an 0-6-0ST steam locomotive, such as the Peckett class W4.

They seem very popular in OO and the should be popular in N as well.

I seem to remember a J94 being on the cards a while back. I'd think a resurrection of that would be popular.