Colour light signal placement on an Inglenook questions

[Blue and Grey all day]

I'm working on a small 40x90cm shelf layout, a bit 1980s WCML-y with a very small, and not particularly prototypical parcels depot inglenook type situation and would like to signal it with proprietary colour light signal kits from the likes of Train Tech and Echon. I've been reading a bit on RMweb but to be honest I'm a little more confused than when I started, so was hoping for a bit of help. I imagine the station continuing on off the right hand end of the layout with staggered platforms, but the two parcels sidings remaining as is. 

 

I've attached a basic plan made on anyrail, any help would be appreciated.

[uax6]

To start with you should have a set of traps between your sidings and the main line. Then the exit signal will need to be on the approach side of those traps. The exit signal should be a capable of showing a main aspect I would suggest.

 

Andy G

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 minutes ago, uax6 said:

To start with you should have a set of traps between your sidings and the main line.

Easiest way is to replace the turnout in the sidings with a double slip.

 

The interval between a siding and the main line should be approximatly a scale four feet more than between the running lines.

 

8 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Then the exit signal will need to be on the approach side of those traps.

Yes if you have a signal but with the length of siding shown it would be impossible to get the loco inside the signal.

 

Assuming that traffic is worked by dropping or picking up a van or two using the loco of a passing train I would be inclined to work the points by a ground frame and not provide a signal.

[Gilbert]

Some random thoughts which may help..

• Make the second mainline part of the sidings so avoiding the need for a catch point
• Iif you want make the platform an island with another mainline beyond?
• Parcels stock may be a bit long for a shunting puzzle if that's what you want to do?

Chris

Edited January 16, 2022 by Gilbert

[Pandora]

46 minutes ago, uax6 said:

To start with you should have a set of traps between your sidings and the main line. Then the exit signal will need to be on the approach side of those traps. The exit signal should be a capable of showing a main aspect I would suggest.

 

Andy G

The trap point, for flank protection of the main line  would be required in 12" : 1  foot,  for the same cost of trackwork,  you could  have a headshunt leading to bufferstops as an alternative to a trap point "drop offs".

If there is a headshunt the exit signal for the parcels depot  could be a ground position signal in yellow and black (not red )  the yellow and black in the ON position permits permissive  shunting movements confined to the headshunt and parcels depot sidings,  when the movement for the points are set for  is parcels depot exiting to the  mainline, the yellow and back ground signal is pull  to the OFF position

[Blue and Grey all day]

I would include a set of traps however I'm quite restricted financially, the distances on the plan are all approximate however the main purpose of the layout is to display a few coaches and maybe shuffle some SPVs round with an 08 and on the the back of a DMU sort of thing. Thanks for the tips TheSignalEngineer, would the ground frame go up near the points off the main line, the siding points or equidistant?

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, uax6 said:

The exit signal should be a capable of showing a main aspect I would suggest.

No a ground signal is fine, trains exiting the siding just travel at caution up to the next main aspect. We have several moves from sidings onto the mainline at work that all proceed off a ground signal. 
The Reception, West bay and Engine Line all only have GPS signals and you can depart to Westbury or the WoE line off them or just do a shunt

 

I’d suggest the two shown here along with a trap, catch or headshunt as described above. 

 

If the cost of the catch is the issue then if you can increase the distance between the two points you can make a false catch point like I did on Lulworth by soldering a rail to the outside to represent it. 

Edited January 16, 2022 by PaulRhB

[Blue and Grey all day]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

No a ground signal is fine, trains exiting the siding just travel at caution up to the next main aspect. We have several moves from sidings onto the mainline at work that all proceed off a ground signal. 
The Reception, West bay and Engine Line all only have GPS signals and you can depart to Westbury or the WoE line off them or just do a shunt

 

I’d suggest the two shown here along with a trap, catch or headshunt as described above. 

 

If the cost of the catch is the issue then if you can increase the distance between the two points you can make a false catch point like I did on Lulworth by soldering a rail to the outside to represent it. 

 

The false catch is pretty ingenious, I'll definitely give it a go.

Thanks for annotating on the actual plan, what kind of signals would they be

[PaulRhB]

9 minutes ago, Blue and Grey all day said:

 

The false catch is pretty ingenious, I'll definitely give it a go.

Thanks for annotating on the actual plan, what kind of signals would they be

They could be disc or colour light in that period  if you do fit a colour light ground signal then you want the earlier type with one red in the bottom left and two white lights. 
ignore the top ‘current’ illustration with two red lights for On / Stop as they are post 1996. Images 2 & 3 are the on and off aspects you want. 

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UK_Ground_Position_Light_Signal_-_Shunt_Signal_-_Aspect_Chart.svg

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by PaulRhB

[Blue and Grey all day]

10 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

They could be disc or colour light in that period  if you do fit a colour light ground signal then you want the earlier type with one red in the bottom left and two white lights. 
ignore the top ‘current’ illustration with two red lights for On / Stop as they are post 1996. Images 2 & 3 are the on and off aspects you want. 

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UK_Ground_Position_Light_Signal_-_Shunt_Signal_-_Aspect_Chart.svg

 

 

Thanks so much Paul, really appreciate the help

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

No a ground signal is fine, trains exiting the siding just travel at caution up to the next main aspect. We have several moves from sidings onto the mainline at work that all proceed off a ground signal. 
The Reception, West bay and Engine Line all only have GPS signals and you can depart to Westbury or the WoE line off them or just do a shunt
 

Exactly so.  When designing the signalling for a siding connection and considering operationa factors the signal provided will reflect the use and purpose of the siding.  In this case trains won't be starting  away from the sidings - the sidings aren't long enough and movements will be made at slow speed so there is no real requirement to consider braking distance for the next main aspect running signal.  

 

If you were gong to start a heavy train out of the siding and the Driver of that train could see the exit signal there would be a need to consider the potential risk of a SPAD (signal Passed At Danger) at the next main aspect signal in advance and that too would be a reason for providing a main aspect instead of a position light.  Always a feature which should be considered when carrying out a SPAD risk assessment.

Edited January 16, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[TheSignalEngineer]

13 hours ago, Blue and Grey all day said:

would the ground frame go up near the points off the main line, the siding points or equidistant?

The most convenient place to do the least walking about during the operation. Just needs a good view of the sidings point and the operator being visible to the driver of the shunt move when backing in.