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Southern Railway bogie brakevans on the S&D?


PaulG
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A small group are refurbishing Julian Brileys 4mm/OO gauge Somerset and Dorset inspired 1950s/60s layout Broad Sidlinch, which he built in the 1990s, and is located at Holt Station on the North Norfolk Railway. 

 

None of us have any knowledge of the S&DR,  my interests are Colchester 1950s, which couldn't be much further away from Somerset!

 

The scenery and buildings are relatively easy to sort, but we would like to try and run prototypical trains.

 

We have been donated a number of items of rolling stock, including  a SR "Queen Mary" bogie brake van and wonder if such a vehicle would be seen on the line.

 

A couple of photos of the layout attached, which is very much "work in progress".

 

Many thank

Paul

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Edited by PaulG
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I don't think that I have ever seen one on the S&D. My own experience was only travelling on the line between Templecombe and Highbridge. I don't remember seeing one in Dad's photos which covered most of the S&D. Guard's vans often miss out in photos as there is an obsession with the locos at the other end of the train! I have been through Ivo Peters omnibus edition and a couple of other S&D photo books. There were very few photos in which goods brakes could be seen in enough detail to identify their type and none of those were QMs. It is great that your group are looking after Broad Sidlinch and getting more familiar with the S&D.
 

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23 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

I don't think that I have ever seen one on the S&D. My own experience was only.........
 

Thanks Phil, for a very quick reply. 

 

We have started to collect a few books on the line and as you comment, guards vans are "few and far" to be seen in detail.

 

I'm guessing into the BR period, LMS and BR standards would possibly be the "norm", and the SR/MoS brakevan??;

 

I've got Terry Gough's "Guide to Southern wagons and vans", Russell's GW wagons and Essery's MR/LMS wagon books,  but unfortunately I can't see reference to workings,  hence question here.

 

Paul

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I have a fair collection of books and DVD's and I don't recall seeing any SR bogie brake vans, in fact as your period covers the WR infiltration I can't  recall Toads either!  One thing I did notice, wooden sided coal wagons lasted  longer on the S&D than other areas away from the line. One vehicle which did seem to make fairly regular appearances was ex LNER stove brakes, particularly on the milk train traffic. There's an image somewhere of an ex GW2251 with 3 milk tanks and a stove on the rear. Last time I looked the Comet LNER stove was not available.

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I have one rather nice photo Dad took of a Jinty banking a goods train over Mendip. I hope you can find a 1/76th cement mixer to lash on to the Plate wagon.

While trawling through Ivo Peters Omnibus, I was surprised to find two photos of passenger trains with a open goods wagon immediately behind the loco.  The caption on the second one, from 3.9.1955, explains that it was carrying urgently needed loco spares from Bath to Templecombe. The other one on 30.5.1955 has no explanation although both wagons were conveyed on the 3.15 pm Bath to Templecombe stoppers.

 

BtoB07  Jinty 0 6 0T banking on Norton Bank 16 5 59.jpg

Edited by phil_sutters
Additional info & replacing missing photo
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Thank you Phil, now that's a challange. Thursday is currently our "work day" on the model Railway, so I'll see if anyone can source a cement mixer!

 

These are a couple of scratch build wagons for my Colchester c1955 breakdown train, so a plate wagon and a cement mixer should be possible!

 

20210929_144647.jpg.8f9eeba9596361df8b2f04a5d72a4094.jpg

 

Paul

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47 minutes ago, w124bob said:

Cement mixers here a pair of 3d printed for £6.50 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264244779753?hash=item3d86375ae9:g:WMsAAOSwKGxfwkVg

I bought some a couple years ago, just needed weathering.

Pway train cement mixer1

 

Thank you, sounds a plan.

 

I spent the day fixing three-link and screw couplings to the wagons we have had donated.

 

The railway runs from April to October, 10am to 5pm, seven days a week on automatic with over 90% of the time unmanned.

 

We found major problems with tension lock couplings, so resorted to Wagon Works magnetic couplings on coaching stock and three-link/screw couplings on wagons with 100% success  (so far!)

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The wagons coupled to the loco are complete, those in the yard are next weeks project! As you see we don't have any brakevans!

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Paul

Edit

What was fun, seeing the train reverse all around the large circuit with no buffer locking, and all the buffers are as manufactured. I had thought we would have to replace with sprung buffers 

 

Edited by PaulG
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Seeing that Jinty picture reminds of one small item of interest regarding their banking duties, I recall seeing a steel rod hanging from the horizontal handrail on the smoke box. A small hook over the handrail and a larger hook at the free end. The rod was just short of the footplate in length, but I couldn't work out what it would be used for! 

Edited by w124bob
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w124bob wrote -

Seeing that Jinty picture reminds of one small item of interest regarding their banking duties, I recall seeing a steel rod hanging from the horizontal handrail on the smoke box. A small hook over the handrail and a larger hook at the free end. The rod was just short of the footplate in length, but I couldn't work out what it would be used for! 

Edited 2 hours ago by w124bob

 

Apparently Masbury bankers were often coupled to the train. These rods were given to the guard. Leaning over the vans veranda, he unhooked the banker as they got to the summit. He then hooked it on the bankers smokebox hand rail to be taken back down for the next freight up the hill. 

 

You couldn't do that from a Queen Mary (or the Gondola), or indeed a BR standard brake, and these last were seen on the S&D. There weren't that many bogied express brakes, 20 Gondola's (rebuilt AC Motor luggage vans) and 25 QMs. Some are likely to have been on regular SR express freight workings , and the rest would have been jealously guarded from other Regions. Not sufficient to allow use on slow freights over the Mendips.

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16 hours ago, Sabato said:

w124bob wrote -

Seeing that Jinty picture reminds of one small item of interest regarding their banking duties, I recall seeing a steel rod hanging from the horizontal handrail on the smoke box. A small hook over the handrail and a larger hook at the free end. The rod was just short of the footplate in length, but I couldn't work out what it would be used for! 

Edited 2 hours ago by w124bob

 

Apparently Masbury bankers were often coupled to the train. These rods were given to the guard. Leaning over the vans veranda, he unhooked the banker as they got to the summit. He then hooked it on the bankers smokebox hand rail to be taken back down for the next freight up the hill. 

 

You couldn't do that from a Queen Mary (or the Gondola), or indeed a BR standard brake, and these last were seen on the S&D. There weren't that many bogied express brakes, 20 Gondola's (rebuilt AC Motor luggage vans) and 25 QMs. Some are likely to have been on regular SR express freight workings , and the rest would have been jealously guarded from other Regions. Not sufficient to allow use on slow freights over the Mendips.

I believe the Queen Mary brake vans were used, amongst other uses, on the overnight fast freights between London and the West Country. There were three down, 22.15 from Nine Elms, 22.40 Nine Elms and 23.58 Feltham. Also three up trains, left Exmouth Junction at 20.50 to Feltham, 21.45 to Feltham, and 22.45 to Nine Elms. There were other fast freights during the night between Exeter Templecombe and Salisbury. It is therefore possible that up to ten vans could be deployed each night on that route alone, these trains would be rarely photographed if ever.

Queen Mary vans would therefore be seen calling in the yard at Templecombe, but I have not seen a photo of one on the S&D,

 

cheers 

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Hello Paul

 

I have been looking into the subject with Mike Arlett (S&D author if you weren't already aware) and neither of us can recall ever seeing a QM on the S&D.

 

Sabato's posting (two above) broadly sums up the situation (and saves me writing it out!).:)

 

 Brian

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Thank you all for your help and comments.

 

The GW and SR bogie brakevans we have will go to another good home, and will find something more appropriate. 

 

If anyone comes to the North Norfolk Railway,  please call in, we are open April to October, usually 10am to 5pm everyday. 

 

20210629_144414.jpg.e155b1c8fd587afac0aa465b3077d246.jpg

 

Paul

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2 hours ago, PaulG said:

Thank you all for your help and comments.

 

The GW and SR bogie brakevans we have will go to another good home, and will find something more appropriate. 

 

If anyone comes to the North Norfolk Railway,  please call in, we are open April to October, usually 10am to 5pm everyday. 

 

20210629_144414.jpg.e155b1c8fd587afac0aa465b3077d246.jpg

 

Paul

I will put the North Norfolk on the list. Mind you it is a long list!

 

cheers

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  • 2 months later...

I hope I'm not breaking any rules, but Broad Sidlinch appears in the May issue of Hornby magazine.

 

Progress is made each week with the refurbishment of the layout, but still lots to do.

 

Paul

IMG-20220408-WA0002.jpg

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  • 5 months later...

Broad Sidlinch 4mm/OO,  Holt Station,  NNR.

 

Moving on from brakevans, etc, we are seeking to purchase a few more locos.

 

Recently two of the Bachmann S&D 7F 2-8-0 have had to have new motors and a Bachmann BR Standard 4-6-0 new motion, which shows the wear they get.

 

We're also slowly fitting brass bearings to all of the rolling stock, as the plastic axle boxes wear to an oval and the wheels bind on the underframe!

 

From comments above and Brian's book, an LMS 4F 0-6-0 would be an ideal buy, but which one Hornby or Bachmann?

 

As said before, I'm fairly knowledgeable on East Anglia, and in particular Colchester c1950s, but S&D is a learning curve!

 

Any comments most welcome. 

 

Current project is the dairy seen in this photo.

Paul

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On 20/01/2022 at 20:00, Sabato said:

w124bob wrote -

Seeing that Jinty picture reminds of one small item of interest regarding their banking duties, I recall seeing a steel rod hanging from the horizontal handrail on the smoke box. A small hook over the handrail and a larger hook at the free end. The rod was just short of the footplate in length, but I couldn't work out what it would be used for! 

Edited 2 hours ago by w124bob

 

Apparently Masbury bankers were often coupled to the train. These rods were given to the guard. Leaning over the vans veranda, he unhooked the banker as they got to the summit. He then hooked it on the bankers smokebox hand rail to be taken back down for the next freight up the hill. 

 

You couldn't do that from a Queen Mary (or the Gondola), or indeed a BR standard brake, and these last were seen on the S&D. There weren't that many bogied express brakes, 20 Gondola's (rebuilt AC Motor luggage vans) and 25 QMs. Some are likely to have been on regular SR express freight workings , and the rest would have been jealously guarded from other Regions. Not sufficient to allow use on slow freights over the Mendips.

 

Given that there were only 45 bogie brake vans its suprising how many have survived

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14 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

 

Given that there were only 45 bogie brake vans its suprising how many have survived

Basically boils down to the fact that they were so much better than any of the other brake vans, so they got kept on for engineering use when they were no longer needed for revenue service.

 

Even at 25mph on a heritage line you can feel the difference in ride quality!

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