Modern Mk.1’s

[XChris]

Afternoon all, 

 

Now I’m not sure if I’ve missed something but have Bachmann produced the modern charter style First open coaches? I’m talking toilets at both ends and middle doorway with 3 windows at one side and 4 at the other or are these something that we have to kit bash at the moment? And if they haven’t been done why on earth haven’t we seen a couple of variations made for example blood and custard, chocolate and cream versions along with a release to tie in with the WCRC Bachmann Mk1’s in maroon too!

 

I would think this would be something most modern image modellers would want to allow them to have a charter rake?

 

Just wondering…

 

Chris

[jonathan452]

Hornby have produced this (as in Diagram 73 FO). Still no 'Raspberry Ripple' version though - despite being widely anticipated for 2022.

 

Also noting that the Maroon, Blood and Custard, and Chocolate and Cream Hornby versions were all fitted with BR1 bogies - the latter two liveries for this coach type would only be applicable to current charter operation as they were built post 1956. Therefore they should have been fitted with Commonwealth or B4 bogies.

[stovepipe]

The only Bachmann FOs were the non centre door types of which only 3 were ever manufactured - a decidedly odd choice. Bachmann have also done at least one FK in Intercity Livery, but with a grey roof.

[BernardTPM]

Could it be that Bachmann simply used the compartment side of the FK twice (with appropriate new windows in the 'toilet' windws in the corridor side) to make their early style FO?

[Bomag]

6 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Could it be that Bachmann simply used the compartment side of the FK twice (with appropriate new windows in the 'toilet' windws in the corridor side) to make their early style FO?

 

I think they used the body from their Dia 36 RFO for their Dia 71 FO

[BernardTPM]

Interiors apart those are more or less identical, but so is the toilet side of an FK, which is why I wonder if that was what they mght have used. One piece of side tooling covering three coach types.

Edited January 27, 2022 by BernardTPM

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, XChris said:

Afternoon all, 

 

Now I’m not sure if I’ve missed something but have Bachmann produced the modern charter style First open coaches? I’m talking toilets at both ends and middle doorway with 3 windows at one side and 4 at the other or are these something that we have to kit bash at the moment? And if they haven’t been done why on earth haven’t we seen a couple of variations made for example blood and custard, chocolate and cream versions along with a release to tie in with the WCRC Bachmann Mk1’s in maroon too!

 

I would think this would be something most modern image modellers would want to allow them to have a charter rake?

 

Just wondering…

 

Chris

Bachmann havent made it.

 

Replica made it in the early 1990’s and as that tooling existed it could theoretically resurface, might have been why Bachmann stayed away from it, that said the FO Bachmann did make was the early prototypes, which was also the RFO tooling..if you look at the interiors those FOs actually have RFO style curved tables.

Hornby made a new tooling of the FO a few years ago, but have only done the basic liveries so far.
 

A typical mk1 railtour rakes consists of BSK, TSO, FO, and RB, the adds in a hobble collection of take your pick from BCK, Mk2a, MCPullman, BG, Super BG even a GUV!
 

Hornby is set up for charter stock at this point, having the popular options of RMB, BSK, FO and TSO, but lack a kitchen.

Bachmann also have the RMB, BSK, TSO, RB and Met cam pullmans, but not the FO.

 

Replicas tooling was much closer aligned to Mainlines body profile, and they produced some ex-Mainline models. From this Replica could model a BSK, FO, RB but not the TSO (They did have the SK) 

 

So no one has swept the table at a full realistic railtour rake yet, all are close… i’d say best bet is Hornbys BSK, FO, TSO with Replicas RB and Bachmanns Met Cams.. but of course none of the paint shades are going to match, so insert the odd mk2a in between…

i’m still waiting for someone to do the Pilkington special K rake… They all could do it, as it was just SK, CK and BSK and all three have made them.

 

[Hal Nail]

19 hours ago, XChris said:

And if they haven’t been done why on earth haven’t we seen a couple of variations made

I would think its just the economics of a new tooling for something that is not as guaranteed a seller as other items.

 

Most people can't run massive rakes so to get a flavour of a full train, a composite is often sufficient for the first class accommodation.

 

A full first class coach is a bit more niche but even so they've already done one type. A second would be pushing it.

 

They can't do everything and a completely different style/period/railway 2nd class will cost much the same to develop and almost certainly sell more.

[Merfyn Jones]

Don't expect too much retooling for modern period Mk.1s.  We are still waiting for a version without the end steps, which B R removed about 60 years ago.

[markw]

11 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Interiors apart those are more or less identical, but so is the toilet side of an FK, which is why I wonder if that was what they mght have used. One piece of side tooling covering three coach types.

The vents for the toilet window are part of the bodyside  so the two sides of the RFO are different tools.

The tabs and slots that plug into the roof moulding are different between the RFO and FK, so Bachmann have two different tools for apparently identical sides.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I would think its just the economics of a new tooling for something that is not as guaranteed a seller as other items.

 

Most people can't run massive rakes so to get a flavour of a full train, a composite is often sufficient for the first class accommodation.

 

A full first class coach is a bit more niche but even so they've already done one type. A second would be pushing it.

 

They can't do everything and a completely different style/period/railway 2nd class will cost much the same to develop and almost certainly sell more.

I’m not sure that argument stands up in the 2020’s, considering weve just got full rakes of Coronation (LMS and now LNER) and a full APT rake including the bogie test coach.

 

A humble mark 1 will longer live as a sales life, and see much more layout use than those niche models above.

 

We are at a cross roads regarding BR standard rolling stock… everyone has boxes of them, in every livery. Do manufacturers fill their gaps, like Hornby with the BCK etc, or do they double down and go super detailed with new toolings like Accurascale and the mk2b and Bachmann with its DCC coaches ?

 

As a modeller i’m not sure myself.. ive over 100 mk1’s… replacing them with £60-70 alternatives isnt going to happen overnight, which means mis-matched stock (who here runs Mainline’s 1979 BSKs with Hornbys 2020 FO ?). Its also a head ache to box up, and get rid of the old, at c£20, at the same time many others will be doing the same.. with 1000’s of other coaches… you may as well write them off and strip the wheels, bogies and couplings… (This is no doubt the fate of many Triang and Mainline mk1’s).

 

At the same time a lot of modellers are less discerning  about the stock behind the loco, so super detail may not fit the plans, budget or value and just stick.

 

i’m still at a dilemma on the mk2bs because of this… I dont recall ever seeing a whole rake of mk2bs, but if I stick a few into a rake (ie like NSE servives, or RRNW etc), is it going to stand out like a sore thumb amongst the rest ?

For Hornby a new lower end gap filler makes sense as their mk1 is bread and butter and quite new. For Bachmann i’d predict a mk3 before i’d predict a new mk1.
If anyone else was considering super detail mk1’s, i’d think they need deep pockets, a gambling hand and a long term view to build a range from scratch… that said if the price/detail/value/range offered hit the bullseye… then wow, it’ll get messy, but there is imo a high risk of being an expensive evolutionary dead end.

 

I dont think its an easy choice for a manufacturer to make, maybe thats why we are seeing the odd ball stuff coming out.. its a short term sale but its a safe bet to sell in the short term ?

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by adb968008

[Clive Mortimore]

On 28/01/2022 at 11:22, adb968008 said:

I’m not sure that argument stands up in the 2020’s, considering weve just got full rakes of Coronation (LMS and now LNER) and a full APT rake including the bogie test coach.

 

A humble mark 1 will longer live as a sales life, and see much more layout use than those niche models above.

 

We are at a cross roads regarding BR standard rolling stock… everyone has boxes of them, in every livery.

 

Much edited

Hi

 

But not everyone has one in nearly every livery.

 

 

 

 

There are still opportunities to model Mk1 stock like the above diagram 30 Griddle Car. Made out of left overs from other conversions.

 

In fact you can cut and shut whole trains

 

 

BFK...still not done RTR

 

 

FK, done for fun, I think my second one.

 

 

 RFO Done because I have not done one before

 

 

Dia 702 Kitchen car.

 

 

RUO, OK it has the same body shell of a SK or TSO.

 

 

TSO...I have done loads of TSO and SK conversions from Tri-ang bits. I know you can get SK and TSOs in RTR form but cutting and shutting my own means the whole train looks wonky, I think it is called consistency. 

 

 

A BSO , done quite a few of these as well. This will be one of the few that had rubber window surrounds on the windows in the van ends, you can just see the fillets of plastic card.

 

 

The other side of the dia 702 Kitchen Car, made form two Sleepers and remains from buffet cars.

 

 

 

 

Not in the train but cut and shut at the same time a dia 700 Kitchen Car....well I had to do something with the other sides of the sleeper.

 

I have not done a dia 73 FO as in the OP, as I have a Replica model.

 

I have done a dia 72, the one with the door in the seating bay. "Doug this is first class" says Brenda. "We can walk through" replies Doug as he bashes the knees of the chap sat by the door with a suitcase. Followed by the kids and Brenda who when closing the door tries with her handbag to take the nose off the lady sitting opposite the chap rubbing his painful knees. Oh what fun it was travelling with my mum and dad.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Clive Mortimore

[adb968008]

10 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi

 

But not everyone has one in nearly every livery.

 

 

I’m sure I've seen stock like that at Carnforth and Burton….

[G-BOAF]

Except that the Hornby Diag 73 FO does not feature close coupling mechanisms, and has horrid moulded handrails/filler pipes (which of course with Bachmann's models having wire pipes can be gently removed, at the same time as trimming off the upper end steps). 

I really don't consider the Hornby Mk1s to be serious top level coaches. Its like comparing the Hornby Mk2F with Bachmann's - less detail, more moulded, and a 4ft gap for our passengers to jump over between coaches.

 

I really wish Bachmann would tool up new Diag 73 sites for their Mk1 chassis. I'm not sure if it would also need a roof, or if the FK roof could be used.... It is the biggest missing element in their range (well maybe an RB as well.... but probably too similar to the RU they do make).

 

For my modern image rake I've got a couple of FKs (which are used on the mainline by SRPS), and my first open and dining needs are met my Mk1 pullmans (as used by Vintage Trains, and by WCRC mixed in with Mk1 FOs).

[TravisM]

I feel the biggest hurdle in trying to create a modern Mk1 charter set is the wrong bogies fitted, usually Bachmann and Hornby Mk1’s, especially the maroon one’s, are fitted with Mk1 bogies, instead of Commonwealth or B4’s.

 

Bachmann do replacements whereas Hornby don’t, so if you want to do a particular coach which is fitted with Commonwealth or B4 bogies, and it’s only available via Hornby, you could struggle unless your prepared to do some serious alterations.

[ThaneofFife]

Thread resurrection.   Has anybody fitted interior lights to the Bachmann or even the Hornby  mk1s?  I have a RBR to add to my rake of Bachmann mk2fs which came with dcc lights.....

Thinking if its possible to use the lighting board from a dcc fitted BDO mk2f into the mk1 rest buffet as the layout inside is not that disimilar but getting power fro the track.....????

[XChris]

14 hours ago, ThaneofFife said:

Thread resurrection.   Has anybody fitted interior lights to the Bachmann or even the Hornby  mk1s?  I have a RBR to add to my rake of Bachmann mk2fs which came with dcc lights.....

Thinking if its possible to use the lighting board from a dcc fitted BDO mk2f into the mk1 rest buffet as the layout inside is not that disimilar but getting power fro the track.....????

You would need to fit some pick ups to the bogies, kits are out there for this. But if your getting those you may as well just pick up a lighting kit with a capacitor. The only issue is turning on and off the lights with your Bachmann Mk2’s. I’m assuming the roof profile will be different between the mk2 and mk1 so not sure how the lights will sit inside the coach… possible but may need tweaking. Swing and roundabouts with buying a decoder and a lighting board vs taking apart a mk2 system.

[TravisM]

If you go onto YouTube and search for 'Dean Park', on his many video's, there's a tutorial on how to fit lighting to Bachmann Mk1's

[Ravenser]

On 27/01/2022 at 15:08, jonathan452 said:

Hornby have produced this (as in Diagram 73 FO). Still no 'Raspberry Ripple' version though - despite being widely anticipated for 2022.

 

Also noting that the Maroon, Blood and Custard, and Chocolate and Cream Hornby versions were all fitted with BR1 bogies - the latter two liveries for this coach type would only be applicable to current charter operation as they were built post 1956. Therefore they should have been fitted with Commonwealth or B4 bogies.

 

Under the 1956 liveries the WR had a limited number of chocolate and cream Mk1s for prestige trains. Naturally they didn't stay in the prestige express sets, which then got piebald...

 

So that one's perfectly accurate

 

It ought to be possible to remove the Hornby bogies, and any bolster/support, and fit replacement MJT rigid etched H frames with cosmetic whitemetal bogie sides. Those attach by press studs (supplied) to the underside of a flat floor. They are not that difficult to solder up, give a more compensated ride at the bolster and add weight in the best possible place - low down . Painting a bogie black then weathing it ain't the most difficult exercise. This exercise will cost just over £16 a vehicle - that's only slightly more than the difference between Hornby and Bachmann Mk1 coach prices. Both Commonwealth and B4 bogie sides are available 

 

MJT coach bits listing

 

The 8'6" rigid frames are temporarily out of stock but ought to be replenished soon - they are the most used option (BR + LNER Gresley bogies)

[Covkid]

On 28/01/2022 at 18:43, jools1959 said:

I feel the biggest hurdle in trying to create a modern Mk1 charter set is the wrong bogies fitted, usually Bachmann and Hornby Mk1’s, especially the maroon one’s, are fitted with Mk1 bogies, instead of Commonwealth or B4’s.

 

Bachmann do replacements whereas Hornby don’t, so if you want to do a particular coach which is fitted with Commonwealth or B4 bogies, and it’s only available via Hornby, you could struggle unless your prepared to do some serious alterations.

 

Interesting you mention this, I happened to watch a youtube video of the Saphos loco change at Hereford last week.  Class 40 off and Royal Scot on. As the train trundled by I noticed that practically every vehicle was riding on B4 or B5 bogies, which seems, the majority of which were Mk1s. In contrast, WCR up the road at Carnforth still seem to believe in Commonwealth bogies, a number of which seem to have recently been harvested from a recent scrapping programme of redundant assets.  

[Merfyn Jones]

On 09/03/2023 at 19:37, Covkid said:

 

Interesting you mention this, I happened to watch a youtube video of the Saphos loco change at Hereford last week.  Class 40 off and Royal Scot on. As the train trundled by I noticed that practically every vehicle was riding on B4 or B5 bogies, which seems, the majority of which were Mk1s. In contrast, WCR up the road at Carnforth still seem to believe in Commonwealth bogies, a number of which seem to have recently been harvested from a recent scrapping programme of redundant assets.  

Generally the newer vehicles in the Mk.1 builds (from early 60s) were built with Commonwealth bogies and in later days many earlier Mk.1s were retro fitted with the B4.  So of those survivors today often the B4s are the older examples . Wonder when the last B1 style bogies disappeared from the main line ?

[XChris]

32 minutes ago, Merfyn Jones said:

Wonder when the last B1 style bogies disappeared from the main line ?

I think the Sir Nigel Greeley support coach was the last one regularly used on the mainline. That’s the only one I can think I’ve seen recently, pre LSG overhaul of course…

[ThaneofFife]

ive been able to buy a really cheap Bachmann Mk2f BSO with dcc lighting on board that i plan to carefully butcher for donor parts to see if I can do a nice retro fit job of the lights into the Mk1 RBR.   not sure how i'll tackle the pick ups situation yet.    Maybe it will take the Mk2f bogies as I believe RBRs did run on the later B4 or was it the B5?

Modelling area is the WCML during the mid 80s. 

[Covkid]

On 28/01/2022 at 12:11, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi

There are still opportunities to model Mk1 stock. Made out of left overs from other conversions.

 

 

BFK...still not done RTR

 

 

 

Very valid Clive

I called in at the Chasewater railway modelshop last Sunday for an urgent stockup and the usual passenger stock was in the platform - except it wasn't.  They normally use BFK14024 and a class 117 TSO, but I didn't realise they have two BFKs because 14007 was also with it. Are they the only preserved railway with two Mk1 BFKs given their paucity ?

 

My first memory of BFKs goes back to about 1979 when i rode the 1634 Glasgow Queen St - Mallaig throughout to be in position for the ferry to Armadale the next morning, so kipped in the BFK in the siding overnight.  

[G-BOAF]

On 11/03/2023 at 00:16, XChris said:

I think the Sir Nigel Greeley support coach was the last one regularly used on the mainline. That’s the only one I can think I’ve seen recently, pre LSG overhaul of course…

Coach still has B1 bogies albeit with roller bearings (which it has always had in SNG use). This must be the last piece of hauled stock with leaf springs registered on the national network (I think there are a few bubble cars still ML registered, e.g. LSL ex Chiltern green one)