Lathes & M/C tools

[Adrian]

I have decided this much, I want to get a lathe and I have spent the last few days reading up and looking at what is available. My budget is fairly low, maybe about £500.00 and so far the machine that I keep looking at is the Sieg C3.

 

I would be interested to hear any feedback regarding this machine especially those who have used it.

 

 

I would recommend them, I bought a secondhand one last year for £350 - with a few extras, I've since probably spent £150 on tooling and extras, tipped tools, parting off tool, knurling tool, magnetic base and dial gauge, centre drills etc. so just within your budget.

 

All the links from Bertiedog show what is available for the lathe. Plus there are numerous articles on modifying and improving the lathe, using the drive gears as a dividing head etc. The workshop series book on the mini-lathe by Dave Fenner has a few suitable projects.

 

Regards

 

Adrian

 

 

[richard_t]

I would recommend them, I bought a secondhand one last year for £350 - with a few extras, I've since probably spent £150 on tooling and extras, tipped tools, parting off tool, knurling tool, magnetic base and dial gauge, centre drills etc. so just within your budget.

 

All the links from Bertiedog show what is available for the lathe. Plus there are numerous articles on modifying and improving the lathe, using the drive gears as a dividing head etc. The workshop series book on the mini-lathe by Dave Fenner has a few suitable projects.

 

Regards

 

Adrian

 

 

 

The book, which I have, is very good not just for the C3, Amazon link:

 

 

 

Also look at the Warco version, which comes with a few other bits, and as the Chester one has a US sourced control board.

 

Lastly, if you get Arc to do the machine prep and bearing change be prepared for a 3 month wait. The book covers both the prep and bearing change if you feel up to doing it yourself.

[gordon s]

Now I'm well and truly retired, I have also been considering the purchase of a lathe/milling attachment. I've had a good experience with Proxxon tools and am tempted by the PD230E lathe as a starting point. The thing that is holding me back is the cost which is almost twice as much as say the Clarke CLM330M.

 

I'm experienced enough to know you get what you pay for, but am curious to know what the quality differences are between similar function machines. Is it worth paying the extra now or is this just the high cost of the € that is inflating the price?

[flubrush]

Some more general books I've picked up over the years

 

Using The Small Lathe - L.C. Mason MAP

The ME Lathe Manual - Edgat T. Westbury - Percival Marshall

The Model Engineers Workshop Manual - George H. Thomas - TEE Publishing

Model Engineers Handbook - Tubal Cain - Special Interest Model Books

The Amateur's Workshop - Ian Bradley - MAP

The Amateur's Lathe - L.H.Sparey - MAP

 

Some of these might be out of print by now, or from different publishers. Abebooks might be the best hunting ground for some of them.

 

Jim.

[flubrush]

I'm experienced enough to know you get what you pay for, but am curious to know what the quality differences are between similar function machines. Is it worth paying the extra now or is this just the high cost of the € that is inflating the price?

 

It's basically down to "you get what you pay for". The Chinese import machines are very basic. In past years there were often complaints of the castings not being cleaned off properly. They do require checking over and cleaning up to make sure they work properly. You will also note that some importers (e.g. Arc Euro) offer these service at a price and also offer other improvements ( e.g. improved headstock bearings) - also at a price. If you take advantage of these offers, or do the work yourself and cost your own time, then you might find that the price gets close to that of the Proxxon.

 

Also, if you go to a model engineering exhibition with trade stands, try comparing the cheaper Chinese imports with the more expensive products like Proxxon, Myford, etc. by trying the controls. You will feel the difference between a machine that has been basically assembled and one that has been fitted together properly. So it depends on what you want. I prefer spending a bit more money and getting equipment that feels smooth, works smoothly and is accurate.

 

As a matter of interest I have just taken delivery (literally as I am writing this) of a Cowells 90ME lathe and it displays all the signs of quality construction and fitting, with a signed test chart. Granted the price of this lathe is probably way over what most modellers would even consider paying although it equates to the costs of building two high end 7mm loco kits. It is being bought by my business - I don't think I would have the necessary cash from my own back pocket. But I am buying guaranteed accuracy - at a price. You might be prepared to spend the time and effort to fettle a much cheaper product to get good quality and accuracy.

 

Jim.

[gordon s]

Thanks Jim, it was as I suspected.

 

I'd rather invest in something half decent as it will last a lifetime and your comments have certainly helped me towards that decision.

[alcazar]

Interesting stuff, Bertie, do you know anything about the Emco Compact 5 and it's associated milling machine and seperate co-ordinate table?

[ozzyo]

This thread seems to have got itself bogged down on milling m/cs.

 

 

Hello Sagaguy,

 

I wouldn't say that its got bogged down on milling M/Cs. A lot of people have an idea of how to use a lathe but no idea on how to use a mill. If you have a question just ask it, or if you have some hint & tips share them. That's what I set it up for.

 

 

Anyway back to the frames and milling out the Horne's.

 

As a PS to my last post on drill the bearing holes out you could move the center axle hole up by 0.1mm just to make sure that it will not rock on the center axle.

 

Return to your '0' datums. Change the 4mm cutter to a 2mm slot drill or a Clarkson FC3, move the table along 20mm this will give you the first edge of your horne gap. from the top edge move in 6mm LOCK the cross slide and reverse the lead screw make a note of this reading as you have now removed the back lash. Say the reading is 174. Lock the table and unlock the cross slide, now wind the cross slide in until you are at the bottom of the frames, now start cutting the side of the horn slot with about 0.1mm cuts cut in until you reach '174' back out and repeat until you have cut through the frames. Unlock the table and move along 10mm this will give you the second side of your horne slot. For the next two horne gaps it is just a matter of adding 50mm to the first two indexes. To cut out the tops just join the two vertical slots on your '174' index.

 

For working out how far to move the table the first axle center is at 25mm from the end, as the cutter center line is over the edge of the frames its 25 - 6 +1 = 20 for the second side its 12 - 2 = 10. I hope that's clear.

 

The sizes assume that the horne slots are 12mm wide X 7mm above the axle center line.

 

OzzyO.

[bertiedog]

It's really your chose on a lathe, the more expensive ones are better made and finished, and I should make it clear I have 5 lathes of different sizes, including a tool room small Lorch, but it has given me the experience to see issues with all the lathes.

 

 

The Emco series are all accurate and well made, as are Proxxon etc., but if starting from scratch these days my first choice would be a Myford, but this is because of an interest in 5 inch gauge locos.

 

It simply does not need a lathe that size for model railways, and smaller types like the C3 are handy size, they can be moved and operate without bolt down if needed.

 

The rivals to the C3 7x10 often use Sieg made chassis blocks any way, they supply Taiwan and Japanese run Korean lathe producers......and some so called European made lathes have Sieg castings in them, even in the UK.

 

With other makes in the main price range of smaller makes service and spares may be the biggest issue, and you should look into how unique the design is and how serviceable without an importer( they do go out of business).

 

The advantage any Sieg has is spares from all "makers" fit all, and nothing is non standard, for instance the makers main bearings are industry standard, and can be replaced in a couple of hours.

 

It is a mechanics lathe, one to do work on, and maintain, fit with extras and generally bring up to standard, but then what standard?

 

It can rival any lathe with attention to details, converted to collets it would rival the Cowells, and the bed and accuracy is the same, but Cowells offer far more in specialist equipment for very precision work, and it has to be said, at a higher price.

 

As you move up from the basic C3 each supplier offers other Sieg models, or their own design, and first look through the range from the supplier, like Warco or Chester, determine what the largest work you expect to do, and decide on a matching machine.

 

I would advise buying from established importers like Chester etc, they have back up and experience.

 

At the other extreme is Myford, very expensive, huge range of accessories and reliable, Cowells are similar, but specialise in clock and watchmakers machines.

 

The other main suppliers in the mid range are the German makes, and these are these days a "combination product", using Chinese made castings , and basic machining and supplying and assembling them in Europe.

 

So it boils down to what you can afford, and the 7x10 variants offer the best value, and being so established now , look like being there for the foreseable future

[flubrush]

Thanks Jim, it was as I suspected.

 

I'd rather invest in something half decent as it will last a lifetime and your comments have certainly helped me towards that decision.

 

Gordon,

 

I hesitate to suggest this but a good way of getting a good, older machine is to buy second hand. The health warning with this method is that you might buy a pup which either requires a lot of remedial work to get it into reasonable condition, or it might only be fit for the scrap heap. But if you do get a good, secondhand machine there is usually the benefit of a load of tooling included with it. A good range of tooling to go with a new machine can double the price.

 

If you have access to someone who knows about machine tools then he/she could be invaluable in assessing any second hand machinery available and advising you accordingly. There is a lot of good stuff around if you know what to look for.

 

Here's the URL of a UK Sales/Wants list

 

http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/index.php

 

For instance, there's a Flexispeed lathe (9th June) on the third page going for £150. The caveat here might be the seller has built it himself from a kit and he doesn't state if three or four jaw chucks are included - buying them new could cost about £300. The Flexispeed was the fore-runner of the Cowells lathe that I have just bought. If you've got the room, there's a Myford ML7 going for £550 complete with 3 and four jaw chucks and a lot of other tooling. Older Myfords are worth considering if you have the space since the company is still trading and supplying machines and spares.

 

In your searches, your online bible should be http://www.lathes.co.uk as has been mentioned already. It is an excellent review source of all machines which gives good pointers as to whether it is worth chasing after a machine, new or used.

 

Jim.

[bertiedog]

I have just looked up the current Cowells price for the 90ME and should mention it is £1899.00 and this does not include the selection of accessories that Sieg do as standard for under £450.

 

It can be looked at two ways, the Sieg is cheap and nasty, or the Cowells overpriced. If I was expecting to use the lathe professionally then the Cowells is far better., but the Sieg is far from nasty.

 

But for the "Home Machinist" the Sieg does all the Cowell can, and maybe more! It does it in an un sophisticated way, it is less well finished , but has the basic accuracy in the parts. I was trained in testing lathes, and the Siegs I have set up are totally accurate for normal uses.

 

The bed is flat, the parts line up with test bars and indicators, and I could write a test certificate for them easily for precision uses.

 

I found a slightly slack main bearing on one, detectable with a lever multiplied dial gauge, It was adjusted in seconds, and was not easily detectable on a simple dial gauge. It did not affect the work in any way. To improve the bearing Arc Euro do a de-luxe roller bearing, but most users will not need this alternative for normal uses.

 

The Chinese chucks are accurate, very accurate, run out was barely detectable, under half a thou, and the jaws are hard and the body induction hardened, so should retain accuracy for years

 

My Warco 1324 has a Taiwan Chuck, now 20 years old and it is still accurate, these were sourced from Sieg.....

 

I do know what accuracy is and the Lorch has it, but you can't buy such lathes these days except from Shaublin in Switzerland ......and we are in the area of £20000.......

 

 

Remember, with all lathes it is the operator, not the lathe that does the work, and the standard produced is down to the machinist. In no way will you have to "fight the machine" with the Sieg.... the better machines just make life a bit better than having to put in a bit more thought with the cheaper machines, when they are pressed to their limits.

But frankly, model railways is not going to press any small lathe to it's limits, an interest in IC engines might however!!

[sagaguy]

This thread seems to have got itself bogged down on milling m/cs.

 

 

Hi Ozzyo,

As like Bertiedog,my interest lies in 5" live steam,I find that there is much more turning than milling at the moment.

 

I got fed up with constantly regrinding H/S tool bits & now use carbide insert tools,these give a much improved finish & when worn,throw the tip away & fit a new one,saves constant sharpening.

 

The milling will start when i start making the coupling rods,8 of em`,all jointed

 

Been in the garage this morning turning a driving axle but it`s got too hot out there now.

Cheers,Ray.

[ozzyo]

Hi Ozzyo,

As like Bertiedog,my interest lies in 5" live steam,I find that there is much more turning than milling at the moment.

 

I got fed up with constantly regrinding H/S tool bits & now use carbide insert tools,these give a much improved finish & when worn,throw the tip away & fit a new one,saves constant sharpening.

 

The milling will start when i start making the coupling rods,8 of em`,all jointed

 

Been in the garage this morning turning a driving axle but it`s got too hot out there now.

Cheers,Ray.

 

 

Hello Ray,

 

inset tools are OK but the tips can be a bit pricey. Depending on the make some you'll get three of four edges and some you'll get six or eight. As I have said it's all down to the make.

You could look at carbide tip tools that you can regrind on a green grit wheel this can work out better for the odd shapes, but not for the straight cutting. But I'm telling granny again.

 

What are you building? Any photos of it?

 

For doing the rods it may be best to make up some jigs to do them on, if you have more than two at the same centers.

 

OzzyO.

[mr b]

I've had my Unimat 3 since new 20 odd years or so, common sence how its used, I wear hat and full face mask as it can chuck swarf and chippings around. thing to remember with the Unimat 3 is the motor, 10 min's on and 20 min's off to allow for cooling, not sure about the newer motors ?

 

mr B .. modelling Nethertown

[bertiedog]

I've had my Unimat 3 since new 20 odd years or so, common sence how its used, I wear hat and full face mask as it can chuck swarf and chippings around. thing to remember with the Unimat 3 is the motor, 10 min's on and 20 min's off to allow for cooling, not sure about the newer motors ?

 

mr B .. modelling Nethertown

 

Newer Unimat motors are better, the Unimat was odd in having an under rated motor on both the Unimat 1 and 3. I got round it on the one with an Elliot replacement, still in use 40 years later. I never found the Uni 3 burnt out, it just had a poor rating for long term use. You can of course put larger motors on the Unimat, a large motor on a board behind the lathe and a long round belt pulley.

Also it should be noted that the current Unimat's are made entirely by Sieg in China!! and Sieg supply other makers with the basic Unimat base castings for their own versions.

Stephen.

[alcazar]

Just had a look here: http://www.lathes.co.uk and it's very disappointing. I wanted to look at what they had to say about the Compact 5, but it's all about the Compact 8, the 5 gets a 2-line mention

 

Also, the milling machine I have doesn't even get mentioned :(

 

The only thing I've ever used the milling machine for is accurate drilling, I don't even own an end mill and wouldn't know where to start, or what type to buy.

[ozzyo]

Just had a look here: http://www.lathes.co.uk and it's very disappointing. I wanted to look at what they had to say about the Compact 5, but it's all about the Compact 8, the 5 gets a 2-line mention

 

Also, the milling machine I have doesn't even get mentioned

 

The only thing I've ever used the milling machine for is accurate drilling, I don't even own an end mill and wouldn't know where to start, or what type to buy.

 

 

You can use slot drills for end milling, but not always the other way round.

If you have dealt with Items mail order he stocks Clarkson FC3 milling cutters the FC3 can be used for plunge milling (drilling its own hole).

 

Have a look back in this thread to my description of milling out a set of frames it my give you a basic idea of what you can do.

 

OzzyO.

[sagaguy]

Hello Ray,

 

inset tools are OK but the tips can be a bit pricey. Depending on the make some you'll get three of four edges and some you'll get six or eight. As I have said it's all down to the make.

You could look at carbide tip tools that you can regrind on a green grit wheel this can work out better for the odd shapes, but not for the straight cutting. But I'm telling granny again.

 

What are you building? Any photos of it?

 

For doing the rods it may be best to make up some jigs to do them on, if you have more than two at the same centers.

 

OzzyO.

 

 

Hi Ozzyo,your wish is my command,to be honest,i thought 1 1/16th scale was a bit outside the usual models that are dicussed on here but here we go!!,it`s all m/c work.

 

 

Excuse the bench,it`s always like that.

The loco is a Harry clarkson of York design,the company now sadly defunct,my wife bought me the complete set of castings for xmas 1984,(ouch).The only castings i havn`t got are the crossheads but i`ll worry about that if i ever get that far.As you can see,on the running gear,there`s 10 or 5 of everything.The cast iron axle boxes have seperate keeps(that was a milling job & a half)& by knocking out two pins,the bottom half of the axle box drops out so that you can remove the wheelset without removing the wheels.I`ve just finished & fitted the crankpins using 601 loctite but the centre driver crankpin has got to have a silver steel key half in the wheel & half in the crankpin tto stop it rotating & putting the valve events out.

 

 

Cheers for now,Ray.

[PhilH]

I'm very much in two minds whether to recommend far eastern lathes to a beginner - all well and good if you get a good one, but it's definitely a lottery. The more experienced engineers amongst us would be ready, willing and able to sort them out, however it would be immensely frustrating and discouraging for a novice if the first thing he has to do is to try and get his pride and joy to turn properly.

 

I'm a big fan of the 'second hand good lathe' route. My example was bought from a university oceanography department. When I got it it had only ever turned plastics and non ferrous metals. Every conceivable extra such as 2 x 4 jaw, 2 x 3 jaw, 4 3 way toolpost (can't count), steadies etc.etc. It is a three phase example but they threw in a phase converter as well. An absolute bargain for the £600 I paid for it - yes, I was in the right place at the right time but the bargains are out there. I know this example is a bit large for a couple of O gauge models, but I'm illustrating the principle here.

 

Since I've had it it's done a lot of work, a lot of locos on the MHR are running round with bits made on this lathe nailed on to them.

 

[bertiedog]

Now I'm well and truly retired, I have also been considering the purchase of a lathe/milling attachment. I've had a good experience with Proxxon tools and am tempted by the PD230E lathe as a starting point. The thing that is holding me back is the cost which is almost twice as much as say the Clarke CLM330M.

 

I'm experienced enough to know you get what you pay for, but am curious to know what the quality differences are between similar function machines. Is it worth paying the extra now or is this just the high cost of the € that is inflating the price?

 

I am assuming the comparison is between the "Clarke 7x10 (Chester conquest), the basic Sieg", and Proxxon, and on the face of it the Proxxon is very good although more expensive and should be.

 

A small but subtle difference though, (and it applies to Unimat, Hobbymat(Saupe), is the size of the morse tapers, which on the Proxxon are Number One Morse.

 

Sieg are much more generous, with number two Morse on the tailstock, and number three morse in the head stock, bigger sizes associated with larger lathes. It makes it easier to buy accessories, they are a Myford size, and gives a generous through clearance in the headstock bearing tube, vital if long work is done.

 

It does not mean that the Proxxon does not take a range of number one accessories but they are more expensive, not so strong, and some things like turrets are not made in number one morse.

 

Number two live centres are cheaper, turrets are made, tailstock die holders etc all in the accepted No2 size.

 

To a newcomer this size issue will seem obscure, but it deeply matters on a good lathe. The small Unimat 3 was crippled a bit by being non standard,(no morse at all), and you were forced to buy Unimat accessories.

 

This does not apply to bigger Unimats, but the morse sizes are all smaller compared to the Sieg equivalent model.

 

Generally I would say do milling in the lathe or buy a dedicated mill. The add on column type work, but the crosslide gives limited movement on all designs compared to a table mill.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

I'm very much in two minds whether to recommend far eastern lathes to a beginner - all well and good if you get a good one, but it's definitely a lottery. The more experienced engineers amongst us would be ready, willing and able to sort them out, however it would be immensely frustrating and discouraging for a novice if the first thing he has to do is to try and get his pride and joy to turn properly.

 

I'm a big fan of the 'second hand good lathe' route. My example was bought from a university oceanography department. When I got it it had only ever turned plastics and non ferrous metals. Every conceivable extra such as 2 x 4 jaw, 2 x 3 jaw, 4 3 way toolpost (can't count), steadies etc.etc. It is a three phase example but they threw in a phase converter as well. An absolute bargain for the £600 I paid for it - yes, I was in the right place at the right time but the bargains are out there. I know this example is a bit large for a couple of O gauge models, but I'm illustrating the principle here.

 

Since I've had it it's done a lot of work, a lot of locos on the MHR are running round with bits made on this lathe nailed on to them.

 

 

I have the feeling most Railway Modellers would be plain frightened of such a lathe, (not me, I could use it at once), and would be a bit put off with lack of instant spares or even instruction books!!

 

For small models it does not need a small lathe, but a large lathe needs space and a sound floor, my house was purchased because a ground floor room had a sound level concrete floor, for a dedicated workshop. I needs concrete, the main lathe is 1/4 ton, and there are five smaller lathes and mill as well.

 

This is not going to suit a model enthusiast who just does relatively smaller work. The machine does not need to be new, the Grindturn featured earlier in the thread would suit any ones space.

 

I found the old Unimat One to be wonderful, the tiny machine could manage jobs far beyond basic work, and it a pity it's not still made. It could be put away in a drawer, with it tooling and needed no dedicated position to work with it.....and it turned into a very good milling machine....saw table, ....surface grinder....thread cutter, and a tiny wood lathe as well. The whole thing was " Domestically acceptable"........

 

This is part why the small Sieg is so good, all right it's too heavy to carry, but it can be moved, and fitted to a small bench is no worst than a domestic sewing machine table. It requires no special floor or mount, any floor will take the weight, even a shed or loft. .....but the same applies to any other small lathe rival.

 

Stephen.

[PhilH]

I have the feeling most Railway Modellers would be plain frightened of such a lathe, (not me, I could use it at once), and would be a bit put off with lack of instant spares or even instruction books!!

 

For small models it does not need a small lathe, but a large lathe needs space and a sound floor, my house was purchased because a ground floor room had a sound level concrete floor, for a dedicated workshop. I needs concrete, the main lathe is 1/4 ton, and there are five smaller lathes and mill as well.

 

This is not going to suit a model enthusiast who just does relatively smaller work. The machine does not need to be new, the Grindturn featured earlier in the thread would suit any ones space.

 

 

Stephen, if you had read my post I did point that out .....'I know this example is a bit large for a couple of O gauge models, but I'm illustrating the principle here.'

 

i have had the dubious pleasure of trying to sort out a few of the Chinese lathes for friends. Some I succeeded in doing so, some were simply beyond it. It's always a case of 'buyer beware' with these things.

[sagaguy]

have a look on here,item no 7554:

http://www.gandmtools.co.uk/cat_branch.php?sub=1

 

It`s a myford ML7 bit garish but it`s still a current lathe & spares & accessories are all avaiable.

 

Ray.

[bertiedog]

It would be interesting to know what has made these lathes "beyond it", do you mean really unusable?...I have set up about 7 of these if a "3 in one" is included, and none failed. What was wrong to stop using them? Last year I used one regularly and it never gave any trouble of any kind.

 

And I did take the comment quote carefully read , the continuing comment was just an expansion, for other readers, who as I said would be put off by such a lathes size. This was not a comment on your lathe, but as I said and carefully expanded on, a large lathe is not a popular domestic addition!..and especially for railway modellers who already have a large layout in occupation of the house.

 

Stephen.

[PhilH]

The lathes which I considered to be beyond it were victims of very poor casting technique, blowholes being the main culprits. In one case a sliding surface was machined over an approx 60% blowhole in a casting. QC seemingly was non existent.

 

The point I was trying to make, and as I seem to have to labour it I am going to leave it after this post, is this: I am not a trained lathe turner or milling machine operator, or indeed engineer. However I have been a model engineer and full size locomotive restorer for in total over thirty years, owning and using machine tools for that length of time. During this time it has been my experience that a good used quality machine tool such as a Myford will give more satisfaction, especially for a beginner who needs instant accuracy from his machine than any seemingly cheap far eastern machine which we both agree will possibly need a good setting up before they can give satisfactory results.

 

This is simply beyond the ability of most first time machine tool owners without enlisting the help of capable assistants.