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Stephen, I'm really interested in how to true up wheels such as Romfords/Markits on the axles and suspect some of the pics in your last posting might help me understand how it's done. Only problem is that I can't see any pics. Have you left them out or have the picture files not loaded?

 

The best way with Romfords is to copy the basis of the Gibson type,(drawings posted), with a recess in the mandrel face, and the washer, to grip the rim edge. The centre of the mandrel can be drilled with a centre drill, and then drilled and reamed 1/8 inch and an axle inserted and epoxied into place, with the square end far enough out to enter the back of the wheel, the screwed part is then turned off.

 

The wheel just slips on to the square and the disk pressed home with the ball raced centre. The mandrel should be mounted in a collet or in a marked three jaw to be able to set it up without to much hassle, but it could also be set in a four jaw.

 

The raised edges should be sized to touch the outer rim of the wheel to grip the nickel silver tyre, not the mazak centre.

 

Stephen.

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Hello all,

 

as we seem to be getting a bit bogged down with some of the more advanced things on machining, let us try to go back to what I set this thread up for (I'm to blame as much as the next man) advice.

 

A few year back I bought a dividing head for my mill, I then bought a full set of ER25 collates with a No.2 Morse tapper collet holder. Now you have guest it the No. 2 M/T dont fit the dividing head. The dividing head taper is B&O (O&B?). Close but no cigar.

 

Now does any one know where I can buy a collet holder with the B&O (O&B ) taper (I can use the No.2 Morse tapered one on my lathe). Or is it going to be a lot of taper turning for me. That's if its not been hardened of course.

 

As a last resort I could fit the dividing head with a 3 jaw chuck but run out and the extra length from the M/C head dont help.

 

OzzyO.

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An oft quoted objection to these methods is "I don't have a live ball raced centre" or the centre I have is awkward and too big, so lets make one in the lathe, it should take about two hours at most, given scrap materials to hand.

 

post-6750-127798975417.jpg

 

First you need a blank morse taper, in soft steel for turning, if you have a hard one then heat as hot as possible in a propane flame ad then cool slowly, it will now be soft enough to turn. The size morse should match the tailstock of the lathe

 

Take the chuck of the lathe off and fit the morse into the headstock, most headstock tapers are bigger than the tailstock and a sleeve can be used to convert, they are easily sourced and useful items to have, (It allows the tailstock drill chuck to be mounted in the headstock). Some small lathes already have the tailstock and headstock the same size, like Toyo, Proxxon, and Unimat, but it varies with model.

 

Find two ball races that can take side thrust, or at least one that can, of a suitable size, say 6/8mm bore, and a case of say 10/15mm, it is not important, any diameters can be used in proportion to the final small size. Two ordinary ball races will work, after all, the side pressure for this use, is relatively light.

 

The morse shank blank end is then turned down to leave a stub that can take the bearings, a nice push fit, not too tight, and loctite them onto the shaft as in the drawing.

 

The lot is removed from the headstock and the three jaw returned to position.

 

Find a scrap large steel bolt or a piece of steel about 3/4 inch, in proportion to the outer diameter of the ball races, and turn to shape the whole out sleeve, the hole will have to be bored to size, and then turn the work around and turn the cone end. This should really be done in a four jaw, but a good condition 3 jaw will do.

 

The sleeve is then slipped over the bearing and tested that the centre runs true as the body turns, if you have used a three jaw to turn the point you might have to try again if it has a wobble on the point, but as long as it seems true to within a thou or less it will work. If the sleeve is set with a dial gauge in the 4 jaw it should be true full stop!!

 

After testing pull the sleeve off the races and then loctite them back one, and that's it, you have a custom tiny ball raced centre.

 

You can make this type as tiny as you want, you are saving many pounds making one, and they don't sell them this small unless very expensive clockmaker's types.

 

For day to day work a normal larger live centre can be bought cheaply these days, the FE ones are quite accurate, but, with say a Sherline, it needs the very smallest size to not get in the way of the smaller workpieces.

 

Stephen.

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Hello all,

 

as we seem to be getting a bit bogged down with some of the more advanced things on machining, let us try to go back to what I set this thread up for (I'm to blame as much as the next man) advice.

 

A few year back I bought a dividing head for my mill, I then bought a full set of ER25 collates with a No.2 Morse tapper collet holder. Now you have guest it the No. 2 M/T dont fit the dividing head. The dividing head taper is B&O (O&B?). Close but no cigar.

 

Now does any one know where I can buy a collet holder with the B&O (O&B ) taper (I can use the No.2 Morse tapered one on my lathe). Or is it going to be a lot of taper turning for me. That's if its not been hardened of course.

 

As a last resort I could fit the dividing head with a 3 jaw chuck but run out and the extra length from the M/C head dont help.

 

OzzyO.

What's the model of the rotary table/dividing head? (O&B?)if it is a standard taper in there, usually they are short form morse, but others are used, I have full lists in Machinery handbooks which may identify, but you may have to turn a sleeve as the tapers are different, and not many makers do converters from one taper to another from stock, unless a popular conversion from MT types.

 

Most dividing heads come with an un-machined blank to fit the taper, and maybe the original supplier can help with the blank. The smaller Vertex rotary table has a number 3 morse, but the Schaublin dividing head with plates uses a Brown and Sharp.

 

The angle can be measured by the diameter at the base and throat, measure the distance apart and trig provides the angle to identify it.

 

post-6750-127799187428.jpg

 

I assume this is the type, I have similar, and the taper in these is morse on most, as it is used mainly for between centre work. The morse is often a half length morse and a full tang will not fit some times giving the impression that the taper is different.

 

I assume you may know this already, and the comments are for all readers as well.

 

Stephen.

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An oft quoted objection to these methods is "I don't have a live ball raced centre" or the centre I have is awkward and too big, so lets make one in the lathe, it should take about two hours at most, given scrap materials to hand.

 

post-6750-127798975417.jpg

 

First you need a blank morse taper, in soft steel for turning, if you have a hard one then heat as hot as possible in a propane flame ad then cool slowly, it will now be soft enough to turn. The size morse should match the tailstock of the lathe

 

Take the chuck of the lathe off and fit the morse into the headstock, most headstock tapers are bigger than the tailstock and a sleeve can be used to convert, they are easily sourced and useful items to have, (It allows the tailstock drill chuck to be mounted in the headstock). Some small lathes already have the tailstock and headstock the same size, like Toyo, Proxxon, and Unimat, but it varies with model.

 

Find two ball races that can take side thrust, or at least one that can, of a suitable size, say 6/8mm bore, and a case of say 10/15mm, it is not important, any diameters can be used in proportion to the final small size. Two ordinary ball races will work, after all, the side pressure for this use, is relatively light.

 

The morse shank blank end is then turned down to leave a stub that can take the bearings, a nice push fit, not too tight, and loctite them onto the shaft as in the drawing.

 

The lot is removed from the headstock and the three jaw returned to position.

 

Find a scrap large steel bolt or a piece of steel about 3/4 inch, in proportion to the outer diameter of the ball races, and turn to shape the whole out sleeve, the hole will have to be bored to size, and then turn the work around and turn the cone end. This should really be done in a four jaw, but a good condition 3 jaw will do.

 

The sleeve is then slipped over the bearing and tested that the centre runs true as the body turns, if you have used a three jaw to turn the point you might have to try again if it has a wobble on the point, but as long as it seems true to within a thou or less it will work. If the sleeve is set with a dial gauge in the 4 jaw it should be true full stop!!

 

After testing pull the sleeve off the races and then loctite them back one, and that's it, you have a custom tiny ball raced centre.

 

You can make this type as tiny as you want, you are saving many pounds making one, and they don't sell them this small unless very expensive clockmaker's types.

 

For day to day work a normal larger live centre can be bought cheaply these days, the FE ones are quite accurate, but, with say a Sherline, it needs the very smallest size to not get in the way of the smaller workpieces.

 

Stephen.

 

careful Stephen, you might end up with a load of orders - an MT1 one for me please ;) As you say a standard type with the big bearing etc will set me back about 25 quid from Machine Mart but your design is far more suited to a model engineering application

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Ozzyo, ........further to the query on the dividing head, it sounds as if it is a Brown and Sharp,(B&S), and if like the standard B&S units it is fitted with a B&S taper number 7 or 8 for B&S number 0 and 1 and number 10 for the B&S model 2

This would have to come from B&S or a outside supplier, and by the look of the combination a Morse conversion may not be practical, the tapers are very close. It looks like the collet set will need a new number 10 taper tang to fit. I may be able to provide the taper details for the number 10, but I cannot in any way g/tee what is actually fitted.

post-6750-127799360867_thumb.jpg

However there is another approach, and that is to strip the entire rotary dividing head, the core with the number 7 or whatever version the model has, it could be re-machined or bored out and a sleeve inserted, but this is a task for a machine shop with decent boring and grinding to maintain the B&S accuracy, which is extremely high.

 

http://www.hexagonmetrology.co.uk/ are the name B&S trade under these days and might be able to help.

 

Stephen.

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See Ebay for Morse No one machinable morse arbors if you make a tiny ball raced centre.........

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1-MORSE-TAPER-BLANK-END-ARBOR-NEW-1MT-/350108109911?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Welding_Metalworking_Supplies_ET&hash=item518411cc57

Plenty of other suppliers exist, but make sure the end is machinable, in a soft state, the listing is for UK made Picador type not made any more, but he has a few in stock.

 

No1 Morse is a popular size for smaller lathes, but bigger may take two or three in the tailstck. Myford use No2, and No3 on bigger versions. The Seig has a No2 morse, the Proxxon No1.

 

An exception to all of this is Unimat 1/2/3..... and they have no taper in the tailstock, but a parallel plug fit, very easy to adapt the tiny live centre design to.

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Now that looks to be the machine tool. B&S O. The beast way would be to get a new collet holder to fit the M/C not to make the M/C fit the collet holder. As I said I could M/C the holder but I can use it in the lathe.

 

So it it is now down to where to get one to suit the dividing head?????????????

 

 

OzzyO.

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Now that looks to be the machine tool. B&S O. The beast way would be to get a new collet holder to fit the M/C not to make the M/C fit the collet holder. As I said I could M/C the holder but I can use it in the lathe.

So it it is now down to where to get one to suit the dividing head?????????????

OzzyO.

 

The problem is B&S do not make them any more and current Chinese made Vertex clones are fitted with Morse, so the call for adaptors is very small. If it is the model O B&S then there is another problem, the two tapers are very close and a sleeve would be a bit impractical, it might work, but it would need a bit of trial and error. It appears the B&S is shallower than morse and the sleeve would make the centre stick out a long way.

 

It may be the collet holder has an inserted tang, which might be removable, and you could interchange the tangs as needed. The only other way is to source anothe collet body already on a B&S taper, and that is going to be difficult now that the head use Morse so much.

 

Stephen

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This gives the detials of the tapers the B&S is a constant 1/2 in taper , and the No 7 is very close to a No 2 morse.

post-6750-127799675561.jpg

 

I have asked around and few collet chucks are made to fit B&S as standard, Bridgeport did them, and Schaublin list them, but you are talking a lot of money.

 

Now do not take this the wrong way, but why do you need to mount a collet chuck on a dividing head, when most work on dividing heads is held between centres? I know it depends on the work, and all the alternatives, but usually a collet chuck would be added to a rotary table with dividing drive where it is impossible to mount between centres. This is why so many Rotary dividing tables have common morse or R3 taper mounts.

 

A dividing head like the B&S may be able to sub divide further, to about 1000, than a simple rotary table, but the Vertex can divide to 1000 or more with the same precision, a morse centre is popped in and it acts as a dividing head. I have 10 sets of plates to do any common division to 2000, some custom to save counting the jumps!!! My own tailstock for the vertex is home made, cast for me in iron, and machined to look like the B&S type.

 

Stephen.

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For all other readers, who may rarely see a dividing head, it is a device used in machining gears and similar items with radially spaced teeth, or holes etc..

 

The work is located super accurately on the two centres, suspended by them, and the drive from the gearbox end locked in to zero position. A "dog" engages the work to turn it without backlash etc.

 

The handle is geared to the driven centre, and holed drilled plates allow sub division of each turn or part of a turn. With a normal worm drive any normal division to 1000 is quite easy. Obviously some common ones like 48 can be done direct from the plates, or sub divided or multiplied from others.

 

The whole thing would be set up on the bed of a vertical or horizontal milling machine or precision column drill, to suit the work to be done.

 

The whole idea came from watch making, where the devices date from the dawn of machinery, where clocks demand complex accurate gears in many tooth forms.

 

A rotary table is almost the same, but designed to take chucks and collets for single sided holding during division. It can act as a dividing head as well though, with a tailstock added, and a full set of division plates.

 

Most home machinists go for a rotary table with plate division, Vertex specialise in 6 inch ones that suit a lot of home workshop users. It is convertible to horizontal for dividing duties, or vertical for milling divisions like round rows of holes in steam engines covers.

 

Stephen.

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Thanks again everyone for the information, my shopping list is getting bigger by the day.

I think I know what lathe I want (C3) and I have a good list of what tools I would like to go with it. I am now thinking about the requirements for setting up and adjusting a new lathe.

I would order the lathe from Arc Euro Tools and it would be the factory assembled version not the Arc prepared version, I would want to permorm the strip down and rebuild myself and I feel quite confident in doing this. What sort of gear would I need to do this?

I read various references to lapping so could some one explain this process and in which aspects it would apply to the C3.

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Thanks again everyone for the information, my shopping list is getting bigger by the day.

I think I know what lathe I want (C3) and I have a good list of what tools I would like to go with it. I am now thinking about the requirements for setting up and adjusting a new lathe.

I would order the lathe from Arc Euro Tools and it would be the factory assembled version not the Arc prepared version, I would want to permorm the strip down and rebuild myself and I feel quite confident in doing this. What sort of gear would I need to do this?

I read various references to lapping so could some one explain this process and in which aspects it would apply to the C3.

 

Whow! ... don't jump the gun, the lathe should work from the box, stripping should not be required, you will need spirit and paraffin to clean all the protective grease off, and lots of cloths!!

 

The first thing is to find a table that is strong, and plug it in! but first check over for loose screws etc, and turn the chuck by hand to check it's free, then put on lowspeed and run themotor for a whil at increasing sppeed, both way, leave running at medium for a few minutes and that's it

The Gib strips can be adjusted, see manual, or ask here, and you are ready. The main bearing will be OK , you can check it though, after the running in.

 

Apart from the cleaning there is little to do. The main gear could be changed to metal as per ARC, but why if the original works, something to think about later.

 

The surfaces are hand lapped by the Chinese so leave well alone unless you are convinced the work is wrong.

 

But you can tidy up any scratches on the parts that are raised burrs, or decide to alter the tailstock nut lock to something better, the first job. But it works fine with the nut anyway, but the option of a cam lock with a lever is there if you want it.

 

Lubricate with light machine oil, or car oil, rub down paint with a mix of oil and paraffin.......and find something to make.

 

The only item I would say is vital is a saddle lock, they are described in all the websites and book, you will need a block of aluminium or steel and a couple of bolts to make it, an afternoons work, or a day if you paint or polish it.

 

any queries just ask!!!

 

Stephen.

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On lapping a surface like a tool slide it is a process of scraping the metal flat, checking against a reference surface, and using lapping compound to finely grind the surface to a high finish, constantly checking the flatness against the reference.

 

However this is a bit beyond most modellers they are not going to have a selection of surface plates to check with, nor perhaps the skill to do the work, if you do know how, then by all means use the skill! Scraping and lapping skills take years to learn, it is a skill lost to modern industrial training, where surface grinding is so good now.

 

Minor lapping can be done to the Gib strips, in effect carefully polishing them on glass with an abrasive, then a fine diamond paste, but the easy way with the Sieg is just to scrape the steel gib strips and fit brass or bronze ones, bought in or home made, they polish easily and are smoother than steel.

 

The bed of the lathe should be OK, but other have posted that they have seen pit marks etc on the beds, but this does not basically matter, as long as they are small. A machined surface is an average of the top surface contact, and minor its marks and depressions do not make it less accurate, it fact they allow oil to stay on the surface a bit better.

 

All the Sieg beds I have seen closely where fine, induction hardened, and a ground and scraped surface.

There is no job on the lathe Sieg that requires instant attention, it all works fine, if you want more peace of mind Warco sell them inspected in the UK, and have a better tailstock lock as standard, but it's a few pounds more.

 

Stephen

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Probably been mentioned before, but this book is specifically about the Chinese manufactured lathes. Just got it this morning so haven't had a chance to read it as yet, but lots of basic how to's inside...

 

 

http://www.amazon.co...78013600&sr=1-1

 

I have not read this book, but do not forget all the Sieg 7x10 sites as well on the web, they cover other makes as well, and general machining, there are hundreds of them. The Proxxon is about the same size and differs only in details, and many principles are the same. Sherline's books and website is useful for all mini lathe owners. Have a look at their virtual museum of micro steam engines and machine tool models.

 

The fact there are lots of pages on correcting Sieg "faults" is not down to bad lathes but the fact it is the most popular small lathe in the world, and more gets written about it than other lathes.

 

Also some of the so called faults are niggles from newcomers to power tools that would not faze anybody experienced, so you have to bone up on the in's and out's of the machine to know what you MAY have to do.

 

There are still a large proportion of the worlds users of lathes who complain about all machines, .....as they are left handed.....and one website on the Sieg took the Chinese to task on this, complaining very bitterly indeed, without perhaps considering all other lathes have the same so called fault!

 

Stephen.

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Some great topics going on in this thread, folks. Well done all :)

 

This time last year I read this

 

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/reviews/brm_c0_lathe_review.pdf

 

and then bought the machine

 

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Lathes/C0-Baby-Lathe

 

although at the time it was offered as a bundle with several accessories at a VERY good price :) . I also bought a collet chuck & some collets - very useful

 

I'm a 4mm scale modeller, & it's proved big enough for my own needs. It's also portable, so it can be easily put away, to keep in with the 'domestic authorities' ;)

 

I'm a professional Marine Engineer, so know a bit about lathes :P , & frankly wasn't expecting a miracle machine for the price, but was very pleasantly surprised with it.

 

I'm not connected in any way with Arc Euro, other than as a satisfied customer

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The CO model and the Smallest Sieg has not been mentioned so much it is the smallest lathe they do, and is just as capable, bar the size, which is better on the C3 , but with the price jump.

 

This lathe is basically the Chinese answer to the Unimat 3/4 models, everything is scaled down in size. The finish on the ones I have seen is better than the C3 perhaps influenced by the fact they are re-badged to sell as European brands, and the Germans like good appearance on the products.

 

Many of the Unimat fixtures fit the CO, and in fact the Unimat 4 itself is made by Sieg these days.

 

The chuck is a fraction limiting as it is lever closed rather than a key, and some people dislike this type, you can buy other small chucks, though at a higher price, from Arc Euro, Chester and Warco..

 

Stephen.

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Further to the Sieg C0 (and all other branded equivalents like Warco, Chester etc.,),the baby of the range in size, apparently it is a Unimat, as during financial changes in the Austrian maker in the late 1980's the rights to the design of the metal lathes that Emco made in Austria were sold to Sieg, who now make Unimat badged units for Europe and do the Sieg version world wide.

 

The early Sieg made Unimats were roughly finished, but the Austrian still control the brand and standards are now very high.

 

The parts are interchangeable on most items, but some Unimat specialist additions are still European made and expensive, like a thread chaser. These are not made by Sieg, but would fit, but cost as much as the lathe.

 

In comparison terms the Sieg is about half of what the last Austrian made Unimat cost, and must be about a third of what it would cost today if made in Europe.

 

The excellent Rex Tingey books on the Unimat, and others, fully apply to the C0 micro lathe in most important ways, although the Chinese have redesigned some items to improve the strength.

 

I had a Unimat for several years fitted with collets and it was perfect in operation. Only after buying the Lorch was it sold. I still have a fully fitted out Unimat One, and again it works perfectly, mainly as an ultra precise micro miller, and tool grinder for sharpening mills.

 

Stephen.

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Hi, I am new to this forum, but I feel I can contribute a little concerning machine tools.

 

The first thing I would say to anyone thinking of buying a lathe or any other machine would be - don't underestimate the size of machine you need. There is very little that a small machine can do that a big one can't. I have used a Unimat 3 for turning cast iron 7mm scale driving wheels, but what a struggle! Overheating motor, broken drive belts and aching fingers from winding the tiny screw handles.

 

Some time ago I was fortunate to be given an old Drummond/Myford M-Type lathe. It was very worn, with about 1/2 turn of backlash on the screws (I think it had been used for war work in WW2). It was duly stripped down and the bed scraped. Many new accessories were added and it now does good work. OK, a new Myford would be nice but I can't yet afford 3+ grand for the basic machine.

 

I am at present using a Sealey GDM92B Pillar Bench Drill, which is OK but a bit rattly. I replaced the chuck with a keyless Chinese job which has improved set up times.

 

Go for the biggest machine you can afford/fit in your workshop, and remember, when you eventually do buy the best, you'll only cry once!

 

Graham

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Hi, I am new to this forum, but I feel I can contribute a little concerning machine tools.

 

The first thing I would say to anyone thinking of buying a lathe or any other machine would be - don't underestimate the size of machine you need. There is very little that a small machine can do that a big one can't. I have used a Unimat 3 for turning cast iron 7mm scale driving wheels, but what a struggle! Overheating motor, broken drive belts and aching fingers from winding the tiny screw handles.

 

Some time ago I was fortunate to be given an old Drummond/Myford M-Type lathe. It was very worn, with about 1/2 turn of backlash on the screws (I think it had been used for war work in WW2). It was duly stripped down and the bed scraped. Many new accessories were added and it now does good work. OK, a new Myford would be nice but I can't yet afford 3+ grand for the basic machine.

 

I am at present using a Sealey GDM92B Pillar Bench Drill, which is OK but a bit rattly. I replaced the chuck with a keyless Chinese job which has improved set up times.

 

Go for the biggest machine you can afford/fit in your workshop, and remember, when you eventually do buy the best, you'll only cry once!

 

Graham

 

 

 

 

 

Agree absolutly,even a slightly worn Myford will always beat a new lathe that needs lots of work to set it up.Put a piece of round steel in the chuck & face the end off.

 

No amount of theory will teach you to turn a shoulder on an axle :) .

 

Ray.

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Now do not take this the wrong way, but why do you need to mount a collet chuck on a dividing head, when most work on dividing heads is held between centres? I know it depends on the work, and all the alternatives, but usually a collet chuck would be added to a rotary table with dividing drive where it is impossible to mount between centres. This is why so many Rotary dividing tables have common morse or R3 taper mounts.

 

Stephen.

 

 

 

 

Hello Stephen,

 

sorry for the late reply, but say you were making some horne blocks (axle box's) out of some 10mm dia. brass. Face off and drill and ream in the collet chuck in the lathe, then mount in the collet chuck in the dividing head mill the square to say 8mm, then mill the slot to suit the hornes say 6mm across flats and say 4mm wide. Then remount in the lathe and part off, then repeat for how many you want. You could do one at each end to save a bit of setting up time. How would you do this between centers?

 

How would you hold a 1mm across flats hexagon headed bolt with a 0.5mm shank between centers?

 

I would do it like this. Using some 3mm stock, turn to 1.5mm for the head then then turn to 0.5mm for the shank transfer to the dividing head and mill the hexagon to 1mm, then part off in the lathe.

 

OzzyO.

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Yes, it's one way, but normally division heads, or rotary tables, are used for more than 4 faces and odd numbers, not a square, which would be milled in a vice, the bar held vertically, and automatically give the two axis for four accurate faces without any division being required.

 

When new to milling it always pays to take the simplest way any way, and few here are going to have a rotary table or centres, let alone collets capable of taking a axle box blank, but they should have a decent machine vice, a basic for all mills.

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Real numpty question alert!!

 

I've bought some carbide insert tools recently, and if I'm totally honest, I'm not sure which one I use for what:

 

post-6668-127885100469_thumb.jpg

 

Could someone please take the time to enlighten me as to what does what, particularly in terms of facing and turning.

 

TIA

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