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SC-prefixed coach numbers


benachie
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I am trying to find out as much as I can about which coaches were allocated to Scottish Region in the period 1951-1965 i.e. that had (or should have had) an "SC" prefix to the coach number.

For BR Mk1 coaches there are the initial allocations in Parkin's book.

For Gresley coaches, Harris's book gives the initial allocations only for the diagrams dealt with in the book. His earlier book gives some allocations for Thompson coaches.

I know of no equivalent for ex-LMS coaches. There are a few SC numbers given in Carter's book on LMS train formations.

Then there are the (few) photographs where the coach number is visible.

Chrisf tells me there are occasional pieces of info in the "Railway Observer".

So, how can I extend my knowledge about SC numbers?

What was implied by an allocation to a particular region e.g. Scottish Region? Some LNE diagrams spent all their days in Scotland but not all were given SC allocations according to Harris.

Obviously there were changes to the initial allocations. Is there any published information about these changes?

Thanks in anticipation.

Alan

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Hello

I'm afraid the only help that I can offer is, again, referring to Mk.1 stock, gained through looking at the lists in the Ian Allan / G.M.Kichenside ABCs on 'British Railway Coaches' (Loco hauled). For DMUs & EMUs, the Ian Allan / Platform 5 series of yearly combined volumes would also help.

What you really need is the Region's CWNs/Appendicies for the period you're interested in, which will, no doubt, turn out to be quite a quest.

 

1961/2

Restaurant Second (RSO) --- Sc 1014-17

 

Griddle Car (GRI) --- Sc 1102

 

Restaurant / Buffet (RB) --- Sc 1658-62 / 1733-38

 

Miniature Buffet (RMB) --- Sc 1829-48

 

Restaurant Unclassed (RU) --- Sc 1940-43 / 1949-58

 

Sleeper Composite (SLC) --- Sc 2424-26

 

Open First (FO) --- Sc 3007 / 3101-03

 

Open Second (SO) --- Sc 3987-97 / 4244-57

 

Open Brake Second (BSO) --- Sc 9357-62

 

Corridor First (FK) --- Sc 13055-59 / 13081-84 / 13167-74 / 13249-51

 

Corridor Composite (CK) --- Sc 15146-80 / 15346-49 / 15418-24 / 15523-32 / 15543-62 / 15685-91 / 16183-97

 

Corridor Brake Composite (BCK) --- Sc 21017-19 / 21112-18 / 21200-01

 

Corridor Second (SK) --- Sc 24170-79 / 24280-301 / 24394-96 / 24557-68 / 24651-75 / 24721-45 / 24791-95

.........................................24816-18 / 24919-44 / 25696-703 / 25862-81

 

Corridor Brake Second (BSK) --- Sc 34188-224 / 34316-25 / 34400-12 / 34431-50 / 34725-28

 

Composite © --- Sc 41023-42 / 41049-55

 

Brake Second (BS) --- Sc 43196-225 / 43311-43

 

Second (S) --- Sc 46169-98 / 46246-59

 

TPO Sorting Van (POS) --- Sc 80315-17

 

Regards.

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Worth remembering that there were a few Bulleid coaches transferred to Scottyland in the early 60's. There is plenty of info on which these were, however I have no idea where they worked. I believe they were painted BR Maroon and had SC prefix and S suffix to their number. This would make an 'unusual' vehicle to annoy 'rivet counters'/pedants at Exhibitions! :P

36E

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Dunno whether it's testimony to Beeching or stock cascades after MkIIs were introduced, or perhaps a bit of both, but I just checked the above list against the 1979 Platform 5, and the original ScR batches are, how shall I put it, decimated by then. In fact it looks like a large swathe of the earlier lots were lucky if they reached 25 years in service.

 

Out of interest, the most prevalent types of gangwayed MkI by quantity originally allocated were as follows:

Corridor Second 167

Brake Corridor Second 84

Corridor Composite 48

Open Second 25

Corridor First 20

RMB 20

 

Total 364 vehicles, 87% of the ScR MkI fleet

 

I offer this analysis for no other reason than it suggests the signature (read bread & butter) passenger carrying MkIs that must have made up the vast majority of the region's internal services (along with Big Four coaches, as has been alluded-to). The other, NPCCS, to take into account are the ubiquitous Southern pattern CCT, tacked onto secondary services wherever you look wink.gif

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Corridor Second 167 ... Open Second 25

 

Thanks 'Chard, interesting stat for those of us trying to work out train formations from photos as these two are impossible to distinguish from the outside (for all practical purposes involving three-quarter views and magnifying glasses, I'm aware there are detail differences close up). Seven to one chance of it being a corridor [edit - during my chosen period].

 

A definitive list of ScR-allocated pre-Mk1 coaches would be extremely useful, but I don't know of one. Personally, apart from a couple for which I have photographic evidence, I pick a number in the right range and stick a SC prefix on it. Having said that, there's plenty of evidence of E- and M-prefixed vehicles on ScR internal services too so not everything gets re-numbered.

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I stress that the stats are from the original allox. The proportions changed hugely later.

 

Looking at the 1980 Platform5, these were the stats:

 

RB/ RBR 6

RMB 24

SLC 5

SO 97

BSOT 2

BSO 10

BFK 7

CK 16

BCK 17

 

and, wait for it:

SK none allocated

BSK none allocated

 

Talking to my mate last night about Glasgow Queen St and the West Highland services circa 1983-85, he commented Second Corridor stock was almost unheard of at the time, it was all Open saloons, which I attributed to the scenic nature of the line. I do recall them outweighing compartment stock, but as a big fan of the BCK, I would always try and bag a compo in one of these - thus perpetuating the compo experience wink.gif

 

SKs may have gravitated back to the ScR as steam heat retreated to the highlands of course. Need to check a Platform 5 for a few years later.

 

Sorry if we've wandered off topic a bit blink.gif

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Sorry, useful in that as a child of the 80s (so to speak) I tended to assume that if it had 8 windows and 3 doors on each side it must be an SO. However, as I'm modelling 1955-65 I'd be wrong more often than not.

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Thanks for your comments, everyone.

Any ideas about SCxxE and SCxxM?

And what did allocation to a region actually mean? I've seen pictures of SC coaches a long way from Scotland. Were they unofficially borrowed or officially reallocated but not yet re-labelled?

Alan

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Thanks for your comments, everyone.

Any ideas about SCxxE and SCxxM?

And what did allocation to a region actually mean? I've seen pictures of SC coaches a long way from Scotland. Were they unofficially borrowed or officially reallocated but not yet re-labelled?

Alan

 

I'm outside my comfort zone, but I like it (sung to the tune of I Kissed A Girl by Katy Perry, pop trivia Ed).

 

Not sure about specific batches of prefix-suffix passenger stock, apart from the Bullieds (?), ex-LNER Buffets (thread on here and RMWebIII refer) and possibly other Eastern vehicles. The prefix-suffix vehicles that really spring to my mind are NPCCS, but the latter LMS Bs and SR PMV and CCT always seemed to retain an M or S prefix, despite spending what must have been protracted periods working off region, informally borrowed/ loaned or whatever, according to traffic needs. I guess that TOPS' adoption may have reduced the sovereignty of the regional fiefdoms in so-doing, to a degree, but I stress this is only a hunch.

 

I think vehicles were allocated to depots, nominally, and specifically to regions to meet that region's W/T/T commitments, plus a generous quantity of maintenance and contingency (seasonal) spares. The supplying region for an inter-regional would therefore have its vehicles off-region for a proportion of their diagrams.

 

My case studies of interest would be the Up and Down Waverley and its Sleeper counterpart, which were formed of LM coaches from Cricklewood, bringing M prefixed stock into the Scottish capital twice a day to complement the E prefixed rakes from the East Coast. However, the equally Anglo-Scottish Waverley stoppers - 2M52 and 2S52 - were Edinburgh's responsibility, thus Sc prefixed rakes from Craigentinny were the norm at Carlisle. True long distance cross-country services would obviously accentuate this even more.

 

I think individual vehicles, particularly those stopped off region for a fault, may have been borrowed as makeweights from time to time by the region where they landed. Also there was usually a lag between officially sanctioned 'loan,' official reallocation on the books, and re-prefixing by new home depot, where large quantities of vehicles were reallocated, probably coincident with seasonal timetable changes. This was especially noticeable with DMUs in the '70s.

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Thanks for your comments, everyone.

Any ideas about SCxxE and SCxxM?

And what did allocation to a region actually mean? I've seen pictures of SC coaches a long way from Scotland. Were they unofficially borrowed or officially reallocated but not yet re-labelled?

Alan

 

 

Alan,

 

This link to the old RMweb should answer your first question http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46732 though it will pay to read it all!

 

Allocation (by prefix) to a Region meant that region was allocated the vehicle for operational use on that regions allocated trains. In the case of the Scottish region, that generally meant purely it's Internal Services (those not venturing over the border) - there were of course exceptions - like special trains originating within the region on advertised excursion trains or enthusiasts specials however almost all of the regular anglo-scottish trains were formed of either E or M prefix stock (route specific of course)! The prefix also meant that region was responsible for the overhaul of these vehicles (generally but not exclusively on that regions workshops) and for the budgeting and costs of those vehicles regular maintenance and servicing.

 

As Chard rightly points out it wasn't unusual to see "other" regions vehicles well off their patch as a result of meeting service contingencies and also the fact that whilst a vehicle may have been transferred, the physical change of prefix could be a long time coming as unlike loco's with their fancy shedplates and depot stickers, coaches were not usually changed till the next trip to the main works.

 

Coaches were only nominally allocated to C&W depots for heavy maintenance and for diagram provision to meet that depots trains, light maintenance however was determined by the diagrammed work hence the reason some of the Eastern and London Midland stock was maintained on the Scottish Region and to that end regional prefix letters were a bit meaningless save for cost attribution.

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Thanks 'Chard, interesting stat for those of us trying to work out train formations from photos as these two are impossible to distinguish from the outside (for all practical purposes involving three-quarter views and magnifying glasses, I'm aware there are detail differences close up). Seven to one chance of it being a corridor [edit - during my chosen period].

 

 

The real trick stuart (apart from counting the bodylights) is to look at the roof vents! blink.gif Now once you've done that you can call yourself a Coaching Stock nerd and join Robert Carroll's BRCS group!

 

Sadly to date there is no definitive list of pre-Mark 1 Scottish Region stock for a few basic reasons - none of the regional Coaching Stock bureau information appears to have survived. With the centralisation in Derby in the Early 1980s went all of the historical records relating to vehicle allocations and shopping, intended to be "computerised" and apparently 99% of it ended up as landfill. What remaining CM&EE records there were, the majority ended up in skips at the back of Buchanan House. A similar situation occurred with the abandonment of the Regional Passenger and Operations managers organisation. Sadly (with hindsight of course) none of the common daily stats and records that we produced by the forest depleting load was ever considered "historical" to the extent that they were offered to BRB for preservation and as such, few have survived even into the hands of enthusiasts. CWN and diagram books offered little in the Scottish Region in the way of clues as to vehicle numbers as unlike the pedantic Southern Region with fixed sets by vehicle numbers, only the vehicle type required was recorded in them.

 

Finding a definitive list is as easy as finding the Ark of the Covenant!

 

 

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Guest stuartp

The real trick stuart (apart from counting the bodylights) is to look at the roof vents! blink.gif

 

That was the detail difference I was referring to ! That's great if the photographer was on a bridge (or up a signal post if it was Derek Cross) but most of the time it's a case of staring at a magnifying glass counting fuzzy dark patches towards the back of the train !

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This is a fantastically useful and interesting thread. I've learnt a lot so thanks to everyone.

 

Extending the OP question a little does anyone know where to find details of SC Mk1 coaches (particularly BCKs) that made it into the blue/grey era? I've read Parkin's book but there's only a small selection there.

 

Julian

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BCKs? No problem.

 

This lot were still active when THE RUTS charted with Babylon's Burning (1979, for non-punkers):

 

Sc21071/85, Sc21110/8/41/66/82/4/9, Sc21200-5/7, Sc21269. Total: 17.

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The real trick stuart (apart from counting the bodylights) is to look at the roof vents! blink.gif Now once you've done that you can call yourself a Coaching Stock nerd and join Robert Carroll's BRCS group!

 

Sadly to date there is no definitive list of pre-Mark 1 Scottish Region stock for a few basic reasons - none of the regional Coaching Stock bureau information appears to have survived. With the centralisation in Derby in the Early 1980s went all of the historical records relating to vehicle allocations and shopping, intended to be "computerised" and apparently 99% of it ended up as landfill. What remaining CM&EE records there were, the majority ended up in skips at the back of Buchanan House. A similar situation occurred with the abandonment of the Regional Passenger and Operations managers organisation. Sadly (with hindsight of course) none of the common daily stats and records that we produced by the forest depleting load was ever considered "historical" to the extent that they were offered to BRB for preservation and as such, few have survived even into the hands of enthusiasts. CWN and diagram books offered little in the Scottish Region in the way of clues as to vehicle numbers as unlike the pedantic Southern Region with fixed sets by vehicle numbers, only the vehicle type required was recorded in them.

 

Finding a definitive list is as easy as finding the Ark of the Covenant!

Hi Bob,

Many thanks. Your expert knowledge both cheers me (because my ignorance is now understandable) and saddens me (the English (Derby) have let us down again - sorry, no politics here!). If you have not already done so, I think you should get your valuable information into some hard copy publication - RMWeb, although so useful, may be somewhat ephemeral.

Two small queries remain: where would Harris have got his information on the SC allocations of the early Gresley diagrams? And why were ALL coaches in a diagram that had never operated outwith Scotland not formally given a Scottish allocation e.g. LNER dia.66?

Alan

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BCKs? No problem.

 

This lot were still active when THE RUTS charted with Babylon's Burning (1979, for non-punkers):

 

Fantastic - thanks very much! Where do you find this information? I've been looking for SO numbers too and it all seems very thin on the ground.

 

Personally I prefer "In a rut" :)

 

Julian

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This photo appeared on Facebook today and is posted here with permission of the photographer Bob Faulkner FB_IMG_1622573263680.jpg.c70e7867340d4c23504ddfe9883cc298.jpg

 

It was taken at Mallaig on July 25th 1967 and I posted it on this thread as the prefix is interesting, capital S, small and unusually underlined c.  Looks like an alteration has been made

 

Jim

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3 hours ago, luckymucklebackit said:

This photo appeared on Facebook today and is posted here with permission of the photographer Bob Faulkner FB_IMG_1622573263680.jpg.c70e7867340d4c23504ddfe9883cc298.jpg

 

It was taken at Mallaig on July 25th 1967 and I posted it on this thread as the prefix is interesting, capital S, small and unusually underlined c.  Looks like an alteration has been made

 

Jim

Interesting, according to BR Mark 1 & Mark 2 Coaching Stock, 25651 was transferred from the Midland to the Scottish Region in September of 1968.  So either this photo is actually later than the stated date or this was taken very soon after being transferred (hence the bodge job on the prefix) and it took a while for the paperwork to formally catch up.

Edited by John M Upton
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