KJM Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Hi All, sorry if this has already been covered but I could not find it on the search, anyway I have a small layout 14 feet by 15 inches as funds are limited I would like to buy the Dynamis system from Hattons, I have a couple of Heljan loco's a couple of Vitrains and about 3 Bacjmann locos, my quistion is this what decoder do I use (funds limited) and what is the difference between 8 pin 16 pin 21 pin etc, as I am only a one man operation I am not looking for anything fancy I am only going dcc so I can have lighting and doublehead etc sorry if this is long winded but I would welcome any and all advice Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted June 23, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2010 Hi All, sorry if this has already been covered but I could not find it on the search, anyway I have a small layout 14 feet by 15 inches as funds are limited I would like to buy the Dynamis system from Hattons, I have a couple of Heljan loco's a couple of Vitrains and about 3 Bacjmann locos, my quistion is this what decoder do I use (funds limited) and what is the difference between 8 pin 16 pin 21 pin etc, as I am only a one man operation I am not looking for anything fancy I am only going dcc so I can have lighting and doublehead etc sorry if this is long winded but I would welcome any and all advice Regards Most decoders will suit what you want to do, but do watch for some of the Bachmann ones as not all of them support consisting (double heading). The difference between 6, 8 and 21 pin decoders is that they fit the different sockets that the locos come with. As far as I am aware all 4mm Heljan locos to date have 8 pin DCC sockets, Bachmann ones have different types in different models (the box will have a symbol on it to denote which type) and I have no ViTrains so cannot say what they are fitted with. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Decoders cost from £10 up to about £25 and, as in all things, you get what you pay for. If you buy all one make and all in one go you might well get a better price. Perhaps avoid Hornby, the cheaper Bachmann chips are OK, TCS, Lenz and Digitrax make rugged products and are all adjustable to a greater extent than the cheaper ones. The differences between 8 and 21 pin (there is no 16 pin) are more dictated by the locos than the decoder. Each loco you have will be either DCC ready with a pin board already fitted or not as the case may be. The alternative is hard wiring which involves soldering four wires to wires already installed in the loco. easy enough once you have the idea. loads of help available on here and elsewhere. It gets more complicated if any of the locos are pure DC and wired with lights using small bulbs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted June 23, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 23, 2010 The differences between 8 and 21 pin (there is no 16 pin) David, see http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/standards_rps/RP-9.1.1%20200801.pdf line 166 onwards. PLX16 exists and is within the NMRA spec. We just haven't seen them in UK models yet. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Decoders cost from £10 up to about £25 and, as in all things, you get what you pay for. If you buy all one make and all in one go you might well get a better price. Perhaps avoid Hornby, the cheaper Bachmann chips are OK, TCS, Lenz and Digitrax make rugged products and are all adjustable to a greater extent than the cheaper ones. The differences between 8 and 21 pin (there is no 16 pin) are more dictated by the locos than the decoder. Each loco you have will be either DCC ready with a pin board already fitted or not as the case may be. The alternative is hard wiring which involves soldering four wires to wires already installed in the loco. easy enough once you have the idea. loads of help available on here and elsewhere. It gets more complicated if any of the locos are pure DC and wired with lights using small bulbs. Here we go again, just because the early Hornby decoders had problems you say that relate to all of them. The later 8249 is an improvement and if you just want to fit and run without adjusting CV's other than the basic it does its job. I have a good number fitted to loco's (Hornby/Bachmann/hejan) where just basic control is required and they do the job well. The sapphire is an improvement and gives you more to play with again at a good price you can pick them up at just over £18.00, one benefit with them is that they are 21 pin fitted with a harness with a 8 pin plug, so the can be used with 21 pin and 8 pin fitted locos, also can be hard wired as well. In the end many people have many views, not all right and not all wrong. Just be prepared to try with what your budget can afford. If a shop is near you and deals with DCC go and have a chat, if the owner can't help there will usually be somebody (shopping/browsing ) who will be only to willing to give advice help you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the fuzzler Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Here we go again, just because the early Hornby decoders had problems you say that relate to all of them. The later 8249 is an improvement and if you just want to fit and run without adjusting CV's other than the basic it does its job. I have a good number fitted to loco's (Hornby/Bachmann/hejan) where just basic control is required and they do the job well. Seconded Have several in my MU fleet, no problems at all. Save money where you can.....spend it where its needed. Another thing to consider is space within the loco. With OO diesels you should (Heljan 14 aside) be okay with anything. I've (mostly) standardised on TCS D2PXUK plug in 8 pin one in my steam loco's as they fit in very small spaces. Sorry its another thing to consider but it is one of the most important. A search/posting on here will reveal womeon who has been there before and can offer advice. Welcome aboard ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJM Posted June 24, 2010 Author Share Posted June 24, 2010 Thank you all very much for the advice, it has given me something to work on, one thing I forgot to ask in the original post is that I see decoders advertised that have 2,3,4 functions etc eh was does this mean..! Thanks Again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Thank you all very much for the advice, it has given me something to work on, one thing I forgot to ask in the original post is that I see decoders advertised that have 2,3,4 functions etc eh was does this mean..! Thanks Again The number of functions indicates the number of independently controllable features (usually lights) that the decoder can support. Directional lights takes up two functions: 1 for lights on (head+tail) in one direction, 1 for lights on in the other direction. To have directional lights plus independently controlled tail lights would take 4 functions: 2 for the directional headlights as above, 1 for tail lights on/off in one direction, 1 for tail lights in the other direction. This would typically require a bit of rewiring of the tail light circuit as well. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 The later 8249 is an improvement and if you just want to fit and run without adjusting CV's other than the basic it does its job. I have a good number fitted to loco's (Hornby/Bachmann/hejan) where just basic control is required and they do the job well. The sapphire is an improvement and gives you more to play with again at a good price you can pick them up at just over £18.00, one benefit with them is that they are 21 pin fitted with a harness with a 8 pin plug, so the can be used with 21 pin and 8 pin fitted locos, also can be hard wired as well. I agree. There is a lot of Hornby bashing about their cheap decoder. I have several & they all perform exactly as they are supposed to with my NCE Powercab. I don't have any of the older ones. 2 things to consider about them is they do not support advanced consisting (which it sounds like you will want) & they have a low-ish current rating. Most locos will be fine, but Heljan's are known to be current-hungry. The Sapphire is a better decoder but you get what you pay for: it costs twice as much. Will you need these extra functions? In the case of my 08's the cheaper ones will do just fine. I have had bad experinces with the only 2 Bachmann decoders in my fleet: Neither support acceleration. You can write & read the CV, but they just ignore it & shoot off flat out. They decelerate properly though:blink:. The fact I can read back the CV suggests to me that it is the decoder not my Powercab at fault. You can experiment with decoders by buying 1 each of several types & seeing what suits you & your models. I was unhappy with my Bachmann decoders so fitted them to my DVTs to control lighting only. Control systems are a bit personal. A Bachmann may suit you fine, but you may prefer something else if you try it: Some like Lenz, others get on well with NCE, but there are also ZTC, Gaugemaster, Hornby & Roco available. All have their good & bad points. It sounds like setting up & dissolving consists easily will be important for you, so this may be something you want to focus on. Why not ask at the next exhibition you attend? Most layout owners will be more than happy to let you have a go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisWV10 Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Just wondered Pete which Bachmann decoders you had problems with. I had a similar issue with the 2 function (36-552) but no problems at all with the 3 function 36-553. Possibly because the 552 doesn't support back EMF and the 553 does? To the OP, No problem with using Hornby R8249 or Bachmann 36-553 8 pin decoders for me also and I use a dynamis as well. To answer the Q about Vitrains - they'll have 8 pin sockets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Just wondered Pete which Bachmann decoders you had problems with. I had a similar issue with the 2 function (36-552) but no problems at all with the 3 function 36-553. Possibly because the 552 doesn't support back EMF and the 553 does? 1 was a 3-function 21-pin, 36-554. I originally fitted this to my Bachmann 150/1. It now runs fine with a Hornby Sapphire. I'm not too sure about the other. A friend bought a DCC fitted Bachmann 4MT, asked me to de-chip it & told me I could keep the chip. I know it is an 8-pin, but have not read back the manufacturer/version CVs. Both work fine as function-only so they're not wasted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisWV10 Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 ah, cheers. Only used 1 Bachmann 21 pin also in a 150/1 and had no problem so far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 ah, cheers. Only used 1 Bachmann 21 pin also in a 150/1 and had no problem so far. Bizarre!!! I could read back CV3 correctly with my Powercab, but it shot off like a greyhound from the trap when set to any particular speed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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