A Highland Miscellany - a Gantry Signal Doing My Head In!

[Portchullin Tatty]

Whilst most of my posts on this forum are related to my D&E era layout, this is merely a diversion from my main interest which is the Highland section of the LMS in the first few years of its existance. As there is a definate shortage of threads on things prior to 1948, let alone earlier, it is time for me to start to correct this unbalance!

One of my current projects is a Highland Railway dia 34 passenger brake van from Lochgorm Model's. It reeks of its age, with flat sides, huge guards lookout duckets and even a private little box (see the half height door to the right hand side) for the laird's gun dogs!



I learnt some time ago that six wheeled vehicles are pretty hard work to get to operate properly, whether 00 or finescale, due to the middle wheel restricting movement around curves and acting as a see saw on any rough trackwork. The solution to this is to use a Cleminson bogie - in this case a kit from Brassmasters.



Cleminson bogies articulate the three axles, so that not only can the centre axle move side to side but it also rotates to match the curvature of the rail. First invented for the Ffestiniog, these immediately solve the problems for six wheeled vehicles - some of which have wheelbases much longer than this vehicle. There are differences in the types of such bogies (and I am told that strictly speaking, what I am buildign is not to the Cleminson patent anyway!) and there is an interesting thread on them here http://www.rmweb.co...._1&?do=findComment&comment=152523

Edited January 1 by Portchullin Tatty

[Portchullin Tatty]

The Brassmasters kit has a nifty combination of arrangements to allow it to be constructed to any size wheelbase in 6" increments. As there are so many combinations of wheelbase, it is necessary to follow the instructions carefully when assembling this.

The base plate has pivot mounting posts (the bolts, one of which has been cut down in this picture) and some guides for the central W iron.



Upon these three W iron cradles are assembled. The two end cradles have a plate that projects towards the centre through which the pivot point passes. Beyond this point there is a further projecting bar, that sits into a housing in the centre W iron cradle.



This means that when the leading axle confronts a curve, it swings into the curve. By doing so, the centre axle is swings out and the trailing axle in turn swings in. The net affect is to keep the wheels parallel to the railhead and it significantly reduces the amount of throw required by the axles to negotiate a curve - both important to reliable performance. In addition, given that most six wheeled vehicles have full length foot boards, at times this is essential.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Portchullin Tatty

[ianmaccormac]

Hi

I have just added a number of photos on the Cleminson thread answering your query

Cheers

Ian

[Portchullin Tatty]

I have found that the Brassmaster's chassis sits just a bit to proud under the floor of this kit. This is due to the extra thickness of the sub-chassis that the Cleminson bogies are attached to and results in the carriage riding a little high.

 

As I had already made the Cleminson bogie, I was looth to reform this and opted instead to cut slots in the floor of the Lochgorm kit. This allowed me to drop the subchassis into the slots by about 1/2mm and thus get the right ride height.

 

 

Using one of the "don't know what I would do without it" tools - in this case the Morgan Gilbert height gauge - it is easy to determine if you have the height correct. With hindsight, I think I would seek to adjust the Cleminson bogie next time, by soldering the screws directly onto the undersid of the floor, thereby saving the cutting and chopping of the kit - wonderful thing hindsight!

 

 

aggh, I wish I had taken the photo on the side I had cleaned up my rather rough soldering on!

 

Anyway, this is what it then looks like.

 

[Portchullin Tatty]

The body of the coach is now fully assembled, the underframe and the step boards complete.

 

 

However, not without a number of issues. I found the ends a little bit to narrow for the base piece to the body and had to introduce some shim where the sides met the ends to pack this out - only a little, a piece of 10 thou to each side, all of which needed filing down. Then I discovered that I had reversed the ends - both the raised panel section and the end are handed and I had mucked em both up!

 

The most irritating was that the front face of the ducket has been formed too large - it ignores that the curvature of the roof cuts this off. This means that the moulding is lost when it is cut down and I will have to recreate the moulding. I also found that the moulding to the side of the ducket was so narrow that any filing to tidy up the joint with the ducket sides eliminated it – more remedial work is going to be required.

 

 

 

 

 

Conversely, the step boards were a breeze, but I decided that the hangers were a little thick and filed these in slightly before adding a stiffener of fine brass wire behind for a little extra strength.

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi Mark,

 

Can I ask if you are passing your comments back to Andy about the things you found when building the kit?

 

He's always welcomed comment about how things go together etc.

 

You never know - It could be he makes changes because of what has been said!

 

Thanks

 

 

[Chrislock]

 

Cleminson bogies articulate the three axles, so that not only can the centre axle move side to side but it also rotates to match the curvature of the rail. First invented for the Ffestiniog, these immediately solve the problems for six wheeled vehicles - some of which have wheelbases much longer than this vehicle. There are differences in the types of such bogies (and I am told that strictly speaking, what I am buildign is not to the Cleminson patent anyway!) and there is an interesting thread on them here http://www.rmweb.co...._1entry152523

 

That's reaslly interesting thanks for posting.

I have a couple of Worsley 2mm Midland 6 wheelers to build and have been thinking about chassis. There is food for thought there.

Cheers,

Chris

[Portchullin Tatty]

Hi Mark,

 

Can I ask if you are passing your comments back to Andy about the things you found when building the kit?

 

He's always welcomed comment about how things go together etc.

 

You never know - It could be he makes changes because of what has been said!

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Hi Pete,

 

Yes I will be passing the comments back to Andy when I have completed the build (which I have, I just need to get some photo's sorted so some more postings to follow over the weekend).

 

Having said that, my father who is also doing the dia34 at the moment, has not encountered the same issue with the width of the ends versus the body - so it may be builder error! The issue with the ducket wrapper was found though.

[Portchullin Tatty]

One of the neat things about the Lochgorm Models kits (and other Alistair Wright designed coaches) is the roof. These are constructed around a cradle that is formed of a lattice of formers. A simple arc roof is, in truth, not to bad to make but compound curves of the elliptical roofs of later vehicles are really difficult without this.

 

If you are going to make your own roofs, it is well worth investing in a set of bending rollers - mine came from GW Models (who advertise in several magazines and get around a few of the shows). It is a breeze making the roofs with this, a right pain otherwise as you get the rolling pins out! The working of the sheet into the curve even work hardens the brass, so it is more durable in its new shape.

 

 

With the roof finished, there was a little bit of work to detail up the chassis. No vacuum brake gear was provided for some reason; so a cast metal cylinder, vac pipes and various "gubbins" below the chassis was added. I simply added this in a manner that seemed sensible - I know that nobody will know better where it goes and it is difficult to see between the foot boards anyway, so is representative at best!

 

Then I got to use one of my new toys, a grit gun. I had read about the use of this in Ian Rathbone's book (an excellent buy for those that do not have it) and also on Allan Goodwillie's thread on the Scalefour Forum - I thought it was going to be worth it to make sure the paint had the best chance to adhere so purchased one from Shesto. It really does provide an excellent finish, as hopefully you can see, in the picture with the model loaded on a stand for painting below.

 

[Portchullin Tatty]

Due to commitments with Portchullin and a rather busy period at work (no bad thing in a recession for a consultant!), things have been a bit slow with the workbench.

 

However, the coach is now painted. Prior to painting (and after the grit blasting noted before), i washed it a couple of times in cellulose thinners to remove any dust and grease. I used Precision paints two pack etching primer and am very impressed with this too. Then, for the crimson lake, I used Halfords "Volkswagen Gambia Red" which I reckon is spot on. I do use a light coat of Halfords red oxide primer as an undercoat though - red can be a very funny colour to paint.

 

 

Lining has commenced. Whilst I have lined with a bow pen in the past, I lost my nerve for this one and am using Fox's lining! I will put in the corners with a brush (for the straw) and then a Rotring pen (for the black).

[relaxinghobby]

Glad to see someone using the Brass Masters 6 wheel Clemison chassis, it certainly can go around tight bends. Here is an old project from the bottom draw that has seen no progress for years.

 

One of the Roxey Mouldings old plastic basic coach sides. All you got was a single sheet of plasticard with the detail for 2 sides and 2 ends moulded on, you had to cut it out and do the rest.

 

I think it is to make a Furness Railway Brake end?

 

 

[Portchullin Tatty]

I, like many of you no doubt, had a list of things I wanted to get done over the Christmas break and got but a tiny proportion of them done! One item that I have got underway is the missing signal on Portchullin. This represents the up home signal and goes between the road bridge and backscene.

 

 

It has been made of MSE and D&S components, along with some sections and wire of brass/nickle silver from Eileen's. I found that the trick with complex soldered jobs such as this is to use different types of solder. Start with high melt (Carr's 247) to get the post assembled and the bearing pivots on. Then use a medium melt (Carr's 145) to get the arms onto their pivots, the back plate on these as well as things like the ladder. Finish up with the details on a low melt (Carrs 70).

 

The other trick for the moving components to use cigerette paper and oil. Make sure the bearing has a light oil on it, then thread cigerette paper over the butt between the part to be soldered and the bearing; when this is on, wet this with oild too. Then, with plenty of flux, quickly touch solder onto the joint. It actually pays to use a hot iron but you do need to be quick. The oil prevents the solder flashing over onto the bearing surface and the cigerette paper helps keep the oil in place. This picture shows the paper in place on the distant arm bearing.

 

[dave k]

Will be seeing the new signal in pride of place at the Southampton show??

[Portchullin Tatty]

Will be seeing the new signal in pride of place at the Southampton show??

 

Yes, that is certainly the intention. Its construction has just been finished, so it will be cleaned and painted over the weekend.

 

The idea is to get at least three of the signals working for Southampton, so that we can avoid passing all signals at danger (well at least we will have to acknowledge it as a SPAD if we do!).

 

Portchullin, as Dave knows, will be at the Southampton MRS's show at the end of the month - details here http://www.smrs.hamp.../exhibition.htm

[scanman]

Looks like a good reason to visit the Southampton Show - two RMWeb layouts, & Dave Hammersley will be there with a nice GWR F16 slip coach... SWMBO's birthday munny put to good use at last - it's only 7 months since the day!

 

See you there - and I'll be looking with intetrest at the cleminsons. Always seemed like a 'dark art' until I found this thread

 

Regs

 

Ian B

[Portchullin Tatty]

Trying to discipline myself by not starting another kit (I am much better at starting them than finishing!), I have unearthed a part finished Highland dia 17 bogie composite from a Microrail kit (these were taken over by Alan Gibson for a while and have recently been re-released by David Geen - I think it was he?).

 

Whilst much of the body was done, the chassis was only started and all the roof will need to be completed. I had originally built this with Scalefour Society "bar" compensation units. Like this:

 

 

These work pretty well but now that I have a bit more experience of exhibiting, I have found that the friction of the compensating beams is significant over a train. To have any chance of a long train, something has to happen and I decided to butcher a Bill Bedford sprung bogie onto the Lochgorm Model's Fox bogie. Whilst the latter is already a compensated solution, I was very impressed with the smoothness of the Bill Bedford sprung units so I want to see if it will work.

 

 

 

Starting with the trusty "hold & fold" the basic body is folded up and the joints reinforced with solder (actually I found that you should not do the end ones). Then the brakes can be added - these are easy because they have been designed into the kit and do not need to be butchered or fabricated.

[Portchullin Tatty]

Having got the basic Bill Bedford frame together, I then added the side frames from the Lochgorm bogie - this carries the correct shape for the bogie and the rivet detail. It is necessary to elongate the holes for the bearings to allow the bearing that I will use to slide up and down.

 

 

Once this is done, the axleboxes can be added. These to need the bearing slots elongated. As they are lost wax, they are hard and drilling these out is a real chore!!! The brake gear made earlier can also be added and we are beginning to get a recognisable bogie.

 

 

Once again I see that I have a penchant for taking pictures prior to cleaning up the soldering - dooh!

 

The key to these sprung bogies is the next bit - they have bearing carriers that slide in the slots (hornblocks) to the bogie subframe, These bearing carriers are mounted on guitar wire - 12 gauge is supplied but I found that 10 gauge is better.

 

 

These are captured in the slot (to the centre) and two small holes (at either end) that are visible in the post from last night. Once you have both sides in, the wheels can be fitted (a bit of a squeeze) and you have an operating bogie. Pushing it along and seeing it glide over any roughness is very satisfying. Once it had the cosmetic Foxes suspension attached (from the Lochgorm kit), it was fitted to the coach body/underframe.

 

 

There is plenty still to do (and Monday morning beckons!), but there is the making of a handsome coach there.

[Guest Max Stafford]

Shaping up nicely Mark. I might need an ex Highland vehicle for departmental service at some point so watching yours take shape is informative, thanks.

 

Dave.

[Portchullin Tatty]

Cheers Dave,

 

Many of the full brakes ended up as tool vans, which may or may not have ever moved from their depot (so garden sheds may be a better description!). The D34 I have described at the beginning was at Blair Atholl thus for some time.

 

I have a couple of pictures of both non corridor stock and corridor in departmental service. They nearly always had modifications though (including huge duckets in one case) so watch out for the detail.

 

I also have a picture of the all third equivilent to the compo that I am doing in use as a support vehicle to the Carlisle crane (which is a Cowans Shildon - the same one as D&S did a kit for) - now that would make a nice little train.................

[Portchullin Tatty]

A serious weekend of modelling just past, as I went to the Missenden Modellers Weekend - http://www.missenden...dellers.org.uk/. I had not been to this in the past and I had both a good and productive time; so I would recommend it for any of those that are thinking of going. They do a couple of weekends a year.

 

Now of course, a weekend away means that you have to start something fresh.........

 

 

I know it looks like a beefy 0-6-0 but actually it is not. It is a new chassis for a Bachmann Crab, which has to have its front frames cut back to suit the way that the body moulding includes the front section of the frames.

 

 

The source of the chassis is the Comet kit. Much of this is very good and I am chuffed to bits to get my smoothest running chassis up and going at the first attempt. However, I was peeved that the various frame spacers that go between the frames are not locateed by tabs and there is no scale drawing to show where they should go (there is a diagram, but it is quite crude). It does not sound much but most of the other components are secured to the frame spacers and if they are not in the right location, then nor are the other items.

 

I have almost never written to a kit manufacturer before, but I will be this time as it makes what ought to be an easy task into a difficult one! More importantly, it is fixable with merely a decent drawing to set things out from.

[Blandford1969]

Lovely to see Highland stock on here, a great thread.

 

Geoff is a member so will probably see your post. the design of the spacers is so that you can put the spacers where you want to fit your own motor, gear train and overall frame set up preferences. Generally they work quite well, although i agree its different to some others.

 

Did you manage to get the body as a spare?

[Portchullin Tatty]

Things are coming along on the chassis, although as ever finding time is a challenge. It is just about to start looking like the ungainly (i think and I mean it as a compliment sort of!) crab:

 

 

Whilst it is not designed exactly as this, the design of the kit allows it to be made up into sub-assemblies. As this has Walschaerts valve gear, this is a real help as it allows the components to be more readily "got at". So far I have got the main assemblies sorted out, so we are looking like this:

 

 

Some of the things to note are the use of a guide spring to the pony truck (difficult to see but just to the top. This is an idea of Iain Rice's and engages into a stirrup ont eh underside of the chassis. It means that as the pony truck encounters a curve, it will actually exert some force to ensure that the leading drivers are also doing the curve. I think this will help the engine but have never tried this before.

 

 

As another first, I have also made this chassis with drop out wheels. This is a great help in looking after the wheels whilst the rest is assembled around them. I have made up a keep that is screwed to the underside of the chassis. It has the axle springs on it and also the fixing points for the wiper pickups (the paxolin). The keep is visible dismantled in the earlier picture. Not my idea, but a good one and something I will do going forward.

 

.

Geoff is a member so will probably see your post. the design of the spacers is so that you can put the spacers where you want to fit your own motor, gear train and overall frame set up preferences.

 

Once I get the chassis finished, I will speak to Comet as I said.

[Portchullin Tatty]

Just prior to hols, I did manage to get the valve gear sorted:

 

Walschaerts valve gear does get the heart racing when you make it. One slipped move and you solder the whole thing up and there are so many bits! Over a weekend I managed it though; the trick is just to work through it methodically one component after the other:

 

I tried to use Tim Watson's suggestion of a permenant marker pen to stop solder flashing across the joints but it did not work for me. Hence I went back to my normal method of cigerette paper and a dab of light oil between the components as I soldered up the various joints. I have been told that vasoline has its uses in these areas or that dipping the rods in metal blackener will work - some experimentation options for the future.

 

It should now be the home run for the chassis, with the brake gear the only real task left.

[Portchullin Tatty]

I have just had a bit of time away and, between doing some munro bagging, I took a little project to keep me occupied (and one has to plan for rainy days when you visit the highlands!).

 

I had finished the body of a Jones Goods a few years back, but it had a sticking chassis so had been put to one side. The peace and quiet without the family proved to be the opportunity to rebuild the chassis and get it running smoothly - this I managed after a certain amount of trial and tribulation (in part due to finding that at least some of the sticking was in fact a rough portescap!).

 

Attachment:File comment: Jones Goods no 17919

 

Attachment:File comment: Jones Goods no 17919

 

Add to this a few good munros (the Beinn Dearg group in particular was a really grand walk for those that are into these!), some field research and I feel I have had a successful time away!

 

There are a few bits still left to do and it is undoubtedly going to need to visit by the grit gun but it will soon be finished. Its origins are Jidenco - but as those that have built much of their work already know, that means that a good 40% is in fact scratchbuilt; in my case the running plate, cab, cab roof, cylinders, coupling & connecting rods, chunks of the tender and a lot of the detailing. I guess I need at least one more of these but I will probably draw breadth before doing so.............and perhaps see if I can tease Andy Copp of Lochgorm into letting me have a 4mm version of his 7mm one (which he is reluctant to do due to the clearances between the first two drivers not being possible with 00 tyres).

 

It was the fist time I used the High Level hornblocks - nice aren't they?

[Ohmisterporter]

Nice model Mark, I look forward to seeing it finished. Number 103 was one engine that I missed when BR ran those specials towards the end of steam, showing my age.

 

Geoff.