Birkenhead Woodside

[class"66"]

Interesting read...

[beast66606]

Birkenhead is around 20 miles further north than Crewe I think.

 

[gismorail]

how bout Liverpool central then, similar sort of set up, probably smaller

I keep looking at this station as model it would make a very nice layout 

[gismorail]

Birkenhead is around 20 miles further north than Crewe I think.

It's 'over the water' from Liverpool 

[Karhedron]

It's 'over the water' from Liverpool 

Oops, somehow posted in the wrong thread. Sorry. 

Edited July 15, 2015 by Karhedron

[gismorail]

Came across this thread whilst new-year musing about a Woodside model...

 

Birkenhead Woodside was probably the most "northerly" GWR passenger terminus, but it only pips the West Kirby branch terminus by a couple of miles!

I thought West Kirby was LNWR ???? I might be wrong sure it's not GWR

[gismorail]

Since I am basing my new layout on Birkenhead Woodside, I think this the best place to ask any questions. I will start off by asking about the size of the platforms, both length and width. Since I have already started drawing the plan in Templot, the size of the platforms are quite crucial at this stage. 

 

These images show platform 1 and 2 (stunning atmospheric shots too):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/96859208@N07/10314108086/in/photolist-4RZMfA-9fMfxE-4MpyWs-4Mpz8Y-6w48Pq-4P9y4t-f5mPL7-atHiLb-dUYV1Q-cbd3Fq-f57xZ6-cwYj7u-8z1d65-a9J7B7-4RZM8o-7f3xfz-djjP2h-794mTn-kQseLt-9yKWZk-akMiQd-bHB4CD-5ZrM9P-ah2Wu4-8q6yUh-aag8Gd-8w78rv-gwd29z-k3579L-gkFbdE-gHrbsa-dqXaCy-f5mP7E-bS1DhK-7DNhom-5Y1pHQ-gHquuY-kZLGGU-hWfo79-gtB39H-gHquZL-94tBTK-6HDUhR-eVQQbV-busLG1-9z5cCF-fghK8q-f5mMvs-gwdKtx-dxt94T/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/96859208@N07/10314106416/in/photolist-4RZMfA-9fMfxE-4MpyWs-4Mpz8Y-6w48Pq-4P9y4t-f5mPL7-atHiLb-dUYV1Q-cbd3Fq-f57xZ6-cwYj7u-8z1d65-a9J7B7-4RZM8o-7f3xfz-djjP2h-794mTn-kQseLt-9yKWZk-akMiQd-bHB4CD-5ZrM9P-ah2Wu4-8q6yUh-aag8Gd-8w78rv-gwd29z-k3579L-gkFbdE-gHrbsa-dqXaCy-f5mP7E-bS1DhK-7DNhom-5Y1pHQ-gHquuY-kZLGGU-hWfo79-gtB39H-gHquZL-94tBTK-6HDUhR-eVQQbV-busLG1-9z5cCF-fghK8q-f5mMvs-gwdKtx-dxt94T/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/96859208@N07/10314240813/in/photolist-4RZMfA-9fMfxE-4MpyWs-4Mpz8Y-6w48Pq-4P9y4t-f5mPL7-atHiLb-dUYV1Q-cbd3Fq-f57xZ6-cwYj7u-8z1d65-a9J7B7-4RZM8o-7f3xfz-djjP2h-794mTn-kQseLt-9yKWZk-akMiQd-bHB4CD-5ZrM9P-ah2Wu4-8q6yUh-aag8Gd-8w78rv-gwd29z-k3579L-gkFbdE-gHrbsa-dqXaCy-f5mP7E-bS1DhK-7DNhom-5Y1pHQ-gHquuY-kZLGGU-hWfo79-gtB39H-gHquZL-94tBTK-6HDUhR-eVQQbV-busLG1-9z5cCF-fghK8q-f5mMvs-gwdKtx-dxt94T

Platform 1 and 2 dimensions are what I require the most at the moment as it is where I am with my plan; and just for anyone interested, some of my work so far which still needs tweaking (notice the extra platform).

Templot Screenshot 1.jpg

 

Michael

I did not realise what fantastic brick work there was in this station that will take some modelling 

[unclebobkt]

 

       Indeed - so it is!

  Crewe is possibly in the North Midlands?  

  Before I checked my 2004. & AA. road-map I had assumed that it is much farther north than it really is.

 

     

Edited July 16, 2015 by unclebobkt

[Joseph_Pestell]

I thought West Kirby was LNWR ???? I might be wrong sure it's not GWR

 

The main station in West Kirby was Wirral Railway, subsequently LMS.

 

There was a smaller branch line station which was Birkenhead Jt (LNWR/GWR) if I remember correctly but, for some reason, always operated by GWR.

[stovepipe]

I'm confused, what is it that made Woodside a GWR station as has been posted further up, rather than a station which GWR services called at? It didn't look like a GWR station architecturally, it wasn't built by the GWR, nor was it owned by the GWR. Of course the running costs were shared with the LNWR and LMS under the joint line agreenents, or am I missing something?

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm confused, what is it that made Woodside a GWR station as has been posted further up, rather than a station which GWR services called at? It didn't look like a GWR station architecturally, it wasn't built by the GWR, nor was it owned by the GWR. Of course the running costs were shared with the LNWR and LMS under the joint line agreenents, or am I missing something?

 

There is a difference between a joint line (ownership) and running powers (no ownership but an arrangement to run trains over someone else's tracks).

 

As the Birkenhead Jt was part-owned by the GW, it is reasonable to consider it as a GW station.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm confused, what is it that made Woodside a GWR station as has been posted further up, rather than a station which GWR services called at? It didn't look like a GWR station architecturally, it wasn't built by the GWR, nor was it owned by the GWR. Of course the running costs were shared with the LNWR and LMS under the joint line agreenents, or am I missing something?

The Birkenhead Railway, authorised in 1859 was effectively a change of name of the Birkenhead, Lancashire & Cheshire Junction Railway which had been authorised in 1846 and which had taken over the Chester & Birkenhead railway which had been authorised in 1840.  the Birkenhead Railway in turn became vested jointly in the GWR and LNWR in 1861.

 

The various lines were opened under powers obtained, at different times of course, by all the above named Companies and in fact the extension from Grange Lane to Woodside was authorised under the GWR's 1871 Additional Powers Act.  This joint vesting also explained how the GWR worked through to Warrington.  It is a pretty close toss-up to decide which would be the most northerly point to which the GWR worked over its own (including Joint) metals although it was probably on the Wirral peninsula with Warrington a close second but in terms of running powers I think it is fairly clearly that the most northerly point reached by GWR trains and engines was in the vicinity of Manchester Exchange.

 

I don't know about the Pre-Group situation but after the Grouping the whole of the Chester & Birkenhead was worked in accordance with LMS Rules.

Edited July 17, 2015 by The Stationmaster

[stovepipe]

There is a difference between a joint line (ownership) and running powers (no ownership but an arrangement to run trains over someone else's tracks).

 

As the Birkenhead Jt was part-owned by the GW, it is reasonable to consider it as a GW station.

 

OK I see the distinction between joint and running powers. Right I'm off to model the LMS station at Hereford.

[stovepipe]

I don't know about the Pre-Group situation but after the Grouping the whole of the Chester & Birkenhead was worked in accordance with LMS Rules.

 

Yes this last part is what I find odd about referring to it as a GWR station. As far as I can tell, It never seems to have been part of the GWR way of doing things in terms of signalling infrastructure and so on.

Edited July 17, 2015 by stovepipe

[wagonman]

OK I see the distinction between joint and running powers. Right I'm off to model the LMS station at Hereford.

 

Ah yes, Hereford Barton...

[mezzoman253]

Probably a bit late for the OP now, but came across this whilst browsing YouTube 

 

Rob

[Ronnie MB]

While we are getting angels to dance on the head of a pin, does Victoria Station count as a GWR station on the basis that the GWR jointly leased one side of it (the Chatham line, although the lone is probably immaterial)?

[Joseph_Pestell]

While we are getting angels to dance on the head of a pin, does Victoria Station count as a GWR station on the basis that the GWR jointly leased one side of it (the Chatham line, although the lone is probably immaterial)?

 

No hard and fast answer. But looking at the old railway company maps gives an idea of how they thought about it.

[keefer]

1913 RCH Junction Diagram for Birkenhead:

 

 

(Reuse of image permitted as stated to be out of copyright: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bidston,_Birkenhead_%26_Rock_Ferry_RJD_74.jpg#mw-jump-to-license)

[Hroth]

If you look at the RCH map, "mud banks" are indicated on the Mersey shore next to Rock Ferry.  Just off the map is New Ferry, which is where Brunels "Great Eastern" was broken up.  Another GWR connection!!!

 

Another point of interest is that the Wirral line from Slopes Branch junction towards Seacomb now forms part of the approaches to the Kingsway tunnel.

 

Finally, Woodside pips West Kirby as the most northerly "GWR" station by a couple of miles.  (Warrington doesn't count, it was "running powers" and for goods purposes)

[lankyphil]

If you look at the RCH map, "mud banks" are indicated on the Mersey shore next to Rock Ferry.  Just off the map is New Ferry, which is where Brunels "Great Eastern" was broken up.  Another GWR connection!!!

 

She was bought by Henry Bath & Co for breaking up on Tranmere Beach.

 

 

(Saw this picture in an office today and wondered why it rang a bell)

[Banger Blue]

Tranmere & Beach, now there’s two words I wouldn’t expect to see together!! I can’t think it would give New Brighton or West Kirby a run for their money

[billy_anorak59]

I know this is resurrecting a very old thread, but a couple of questions (for Beast if he’s looking in?) please?

 

On page 1 of the thread (posted 07/07/2010) there is a diagram of the throat to Woodside. I’m exploring a cut down version, but was wondering:

 

1. Were there any release crossovers at the platform ends? If so, what form did they take?

2. What form did the platform indicator take? (it’s a bit indistinct on the scan)

3. Whether the signals next to crossover 39A and 39B were actually positioned on the ‘wrong’ side of the line, and where were they (in tunnel?), as the only photo I have near that area is a bit ‘atmospheric’ and just shows a bracket distant, which again, looks ‘wrong’ line (but in the other direction) – is it off the diagram, as I can’t see it there?):

 

 

I know I could PM Beast, but the answers to any of the above may be of interest to the wider community, so I’ll leave the post here.

… If you’re out there Dave?

[beast66606]

1 - I don't think release crossovers were provided, stock was either had a new engine attached to the departure end, or drawn off the train engine and either pushed back into another platform or taken to the carriage sidings at Blackpool Street / Green Lane - I'll dig out the full diagram over the next few days (hopefully)

2 - which platform indicator are you referring to ?

3 - I assume you mean 37/45 ground signals ? - they would probably be LNWR dwarf arms and were on the outside of the line, and most certainly in the tunnel - the mouth of the tunnel is just in front of the loco and it ran to Town station. The distant signal was Blackpool Streets up distant and applied to all lines for trains leaving Woodside.

Edited December 10, 2019 by beast66606

[billy_anorak59]

Thanks for the very quick reply Dave - most appreciated.

 

I didn't think there were any release crossovers, but I've never seen any photographs of the track at the platform end, so thanks for the confirmation. I remember travelling from the station well, but was too young to take any notice of the details.

Regarding the platform indicator and the signals I'm on about, I've marked them up on a section of your diagram - marked as 2 and 3 respectively.

 

 

I couldn't make out the numbers of the signals from the scan, but yes, I think they could be 37 and 45 - I hadn't considered them as dwarf signals, but it makes sense now you've said it. Thanks too for the additional info on the distant.