1S68 , The Thames Clyde Express

[vitalspark]

Interesting topic and brings back the memories.

From previous posts yes the 1C0-C01 wheel arrangement was banned from the station throat at Glasgow central after a derailment al;though I think this may have been after the final TCE also mention was made of a loco change at Eaglesham..a nice conservation village on the outskirts of Glasgow and not rail connected..although it might have been as it was proposed back about 1900..I don't live far from there so a lovely thought but alas not possible.

 

On the train itself I travelled on it many times from Glasgow to Carlisle and return as although it was slower as in time taken it was a far more interesting trip and coiuld be lively with speeds quite high with the 45 up front especially on the dash from Carlisle to Gretna Jct where the Peak could hit 90..a class 40 on the other faster route had no chance of matching that in fact I never timed a 40 at 90 ever!..88 being the max whereas with Peaks on the ECML I have noted sustained 90s north of York quite normal.

 

I travelled on the very last up service from Glasgow to St Pancras and returned same night on the 21.30 through sleeper to Glasgow before the service was cut back to Nottingham and downgraded.

 

We left Glasgow behind a Class 82.. 002 I think..as it was bib this time running direct to Carlisle then S&C etc.

We travelled in the first coach from Glasgow a Mk1 compartment brake..the only 2nd compartment coach on the train as all others were opens.

At Carlisle a Peak was attached to Leeds where we reversed and another Peak coupled on.

I seem to remember a further two reversals Nottingham being one but I would need to dig out the notes if I can find them.

I do known it was 100% Peak hauled apart from the AC to Carlisle.

I filmed the journey on 8mm film but the camera packed up south pif Leeds but I do have some interesting footage.

I also did take many slides but as my notes will have to search fro them.

We returned same night on the 21.30 through to Glasgow including the G&SW all  Peak hauled with a compartment to ourselves and a clear moonlit night over the roof of England..magic.

Still have memories of the platform inspector when checking our tickets telling us we could  go over to Euston and catch a later train and still be in Glasgow before this one…no wonder it wasn't patronised.

As said I will now try to locate my film and slides which will give me dates and locos etc but as it was the very last through service and the reason we made the trip the date should be known..possibly a summer/winter timetable change?

The afternoon 16.10 Glasgow Leeds was I believe at the same time extended to Nottingham and reverted to 47 haulage.

 

Dave.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

Leeds where we reversed and another Peak coupled on. I seem to remember a further two reversals Nottingham being one

 

Leeds and Nottingham were the only reversals under normal working.  If your train was diverted to also serve Derby or ran via Corby for some reason then an additional reversal would have taken place at Derby or Leicester respectively.

[pH]

Dave (Vitalspark), I'll be interested to see what your notes say, as your memories as written don't exactly correspond with mine. I'm not saying mine are right (it was a long time ago, after all!).

 

I lived in and around Nottingham from 1973 to 1976 and used both the Thames-Clyde and the sleeper to and from Glasgow. Certainly in 1974 the Thames-Clyde was still running from south of Nottingham (presumably from St Pancras) as we had to wait for it coming into Nottingham . It was also still running by the G&SW route - I remember getting off in Kilmarnock and also a long wait just past Crossmyloof station, where several passengers dropped off the train and climbed up the embankment to the road. But by that time, the up sleeper dropped the sleeping cars at Nottingham - you could lie on and get up at your leisure. Incidentally, did the sleeper, when it still carried the sleeping cars to London, not end up running to/from Euston, using the ex-Midland line from Leicester to Rugby?

 

As I said, these are memories from long ago and not necessarily reliable. I'll be interested to see what your notes turn up.

 

About relative speeds Glasgow-Carlisle, I remember the Peaks almost dawdling out through the Glasgow suburbs, and then the sound of them really being opened up as the train approached Barrhead and the start of the bank up to Lugton.

 

90mph with an EE Type 4 - I experienced it once, travelling from Carstairs to Carlisle on a Perth-London train. We struggled up to Beattock Summit at under 30mph, then the driver just let it go down the other side. Two of us reckoned we hit 90-91 just before Beattock station. The looks of concern on other passengers' faces were something to behold!

[vitalspark]

Leeds and Nottingham were the only reversals under normal working.  If your train was diverted to also serve Derby or ran via Corby for some reason then an additional reversal would have taken place at Derby or Leicester respectively.

It did call at Derby so that would explain it.

 

Thanks for that.

 

Dave

[pH]

Leeds and Nottingham were the only reversals under normal working.  If your train was diverted to also serve Derby or ran via Corby for some reason then an additional reversal would have taken place at Derby or Leicester respectively.[/size]

 

 

 

It did call at Derby so that would explain it.j

 

Thanks for that.

 

Dave

Not necessarily. It was possible to go Sheffield-Ambergate-Derby-Trent-Nottingham without reversing. The sleeper did that route in the opposite direction. You would only have to reverse in Derby if you went Sheffield-Trowell-Nottingham-Trent-Derby-London, and that would be quite a diversion.

[vitalspark]

Dave (Vitalspark), I'll be interested to see what your notes say, as your memories as written don't exactly correspond with mine. I'm not saying mine are right (it was a long time ago, after all!).

 

I lived in and around Nottingham from 1973 to 1976 and used both the Thames-Clyde and the sleeper to and from Glasgow. Certainly in 1974 the Thames-Clyde was still running from south of Nottingham (presumably from St Pancras) as we had to wait for it coming into Nottingham . It was also still running by the G&SW route - I remember getting off in Kilmarnock and also a long wait just past Crossmyloof station, where several passengers dropped off the train and climbed up the embankment to the road. But by that time, the up sleeper dropped the sleeping cars at Nottingham - you could lie on and get up at your leisure. Incidentally, did the sleeper, when it still carried the sleeping cars to London, not end up running to/from Euston, using the ex-Midland line from Leicester to Rugby?

 

As I said, these are memories from long ago and not necessarily reliable. I'll be interested to see what your notes turn up.

 

About relative speeds Glasgow-Carlisle, I remember the Peaks almost dawdling out through the Glasgow suburbs, and then the sound of them really being opened up as the train approached Barrhead and the start of the bank up to Lugton.

 

90mph with an EE Type 4 - I experienced it once, travelling from Carstairs to Carlisle on a Perth-London train. We struggled up to Beattock Summit at under 30mph, then the driver just let it go down the other side. Two of us reckoned we hit 90-91 just before Beattock station. The looks of concern on other passengers' faces were something to behold!

Good to hear your memories of this line and interesting to hear about the long wait 'just past Crossmyloof'..this would make sense if the 1Co-Co1 was being changed as the junction from the original G&SW rote is just further on at Strathbungo Jct and the obvious place for a loco change.

The Peaks were still in charge from Glasgow via the Sou West from memory until mid 70s as I used to see the 09.35 departure as it was then most mornings but in its last days the service was accelerated by using the direct route to Carlisle under the wires.

I trust the corresponding down service was also using this route but don't know for sure.

The overnight sleeper service was as far as I know still using the Sou West and certainly did on my return journey.

I will have a determined search forn the slides..the film is easier but its not transferred although I have the means to do this so must get on with it too.

I think my trip was '76 but I am 100% it was the last through service before the Nottingham curtailment.

I am also pretty sure it was no longer advertised as the TCE but it was running exactly as it did when named.

Will post some pics when I find them.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[Gwiwer]

There are numerous routing options through the East Midlands and at times operational requirements would have seen the TCE and its corresponding sleeper altered from the standard Chesterfield - Toton - Nottingham (reverse) - Leicester route.  "Trowell" does not define the route taken as either via Trent or via Radford are possible.  The TCE normally came via Trent (passing the junctions there twice) and through the middle of the Toton complex.  Today's route is normally via Radford with nothing advertised via the Toton route.  There are still occasional rumblings about re-opening Stapleford & Sandiacre station and bringing passenger trains back that way but the current site of Long Eaton is said by the operators to adequately serve the area.

 

Sheffield - Derby - Nottingham - Leicester only requires one reversal; Sheffield - Nottingham - Derby - Leicester requires two.  There might have been some reason why the trip in question took the latter route.

 

On the subject of the sleeper using the Leicester - Rugby line it most certainly did for some of its years as it was booked a stop at both Leicester and Northampton IIRC and appeared in the relevant St. Pancras - East Midlands table with a letter in the "St. Pancras" arrival / departure times referring to the footnote "London Euston".  That route closed to passengers on 01/01/62 but remained available as a freight line until I think 1970 with the sleeper using it on an unadvertised basis. After 1970 the sleeper would have had to use St. Pancras for its final few years of operation.

[vitalspark]

On the higher top speed of the Peaks compared to the EE 40 I believe the balancing speed of the 40 was around 88mph so 90 would probably need a bit of downhill running..like Beattock bank!

The Peaks had a higher balancing speed apparently and although both were given a 90mph max the 40s rarely achieved it whereas the Peaks often exceeded…great locos and don't know why both the WCML and ECML persisted with inferior power for so long prior to the AC locos and Deltics.

 

Dave

[pH]

... interesting to hear about the long wait 'just past Crossmyloof'..this would make sense if the 1Co-Co1 was being changed as the junction from the original G&SW rote is just further on at Strathbungo Jct and the obvious place for a loco change.

 

  

The stop was definitely not for an engine change. It was just an operating problem. Every time I travelled on the northbound service via the G&SW line the same engine worked through from Leeds to Glasgow.

 

 "Trowell" does not define the route taken as either via Trent or via Radford are possible.  The TCE normally came via Trent (passing the junctions there twice) and through the middle of the Toton complex.  Today's route is normally via Radford with nothing advertised via the Toton route.

I wasn't trying to define the whole route - I just included Trowell to distinguish that route from the line through Ambergate.

 

Every trip I took on the Thames-Clyde in that 1973-76 period went by the Radford route. I kept hoping for a diversion via Trent and Toton, but it never happened.

[RANGERS]

There are numerous routing options through the East Midlands and at times operational requirements would have seen the TCE and its corresponding sleeper altered from the standard Chesterfield - Toton - Nottingham (reverse) - Leicester route.  "Trowell" does not define the route taken as either via Trent or via Radford are possible.  The TCE normally came via Trent (passing the junctions there twice) and through the middle of the Toton complex.  Today's route is normally via Radford with nothing advertised via the Toton route.  There are still occasional rumblings about re-opening Stapleford & Sandiacre station and bringing passenger trains back that way but the current site of Long Eaton is said by the operators to adequately serve the area.

 

Sheffield - Derby - Nottingham - Leicester only requires one reversal; Sheffield - Nottingham - Derby - Leicester requires two.  There might have been some reason why the trip in question took the latter route.

 

On the subject of the sleeper using the Leicester - Rugby line it most certainly did for some of its years as it was booked a stop at both Leicester and Northampton IIRC and appeared in the relevant St. Pancras - East Midlands table with a letter in the "St. Pancras" arrival / departure times referring to the footnote "London Euston".  That route closed to passengers on 01/01/62 but remained available as a freight line until I think 1970 with the sleeper using it on an unadvertised basis. After 1970 the sleeper would have had to use St. Pancras for its final few years of operation.

The sleeper did run to Euston for a while but via the Market Harborough -Northampton line, the last passenger service to use that route. I'm not sure it ever returned to St Pancras, the reason for the diversion was to concentrate sleeper servicing at Stonebridge Park I guess it would have been. I'd need to do some digging to confirm but I think it was 1968 or 69 that took place.

 

The sleeper was curtailed to Nottingham before 1976, I'm pretty certain I was on it that year and the coaches were coupled to the rear of the train after the train engine from Leicester had been removed. The train had originated at St Pancras, we'd joined at Kettering and I'm certain we didn't change.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

Every trip I took on the Thames-Clyde in that 1973-76 period went by the Radford route. I kept hoping for a diversion via Trent and Toton, but it never happened.

 

And by contrast every trip I took ran via Toton  They also ran via Cudworth though I know of some users who hoped for that route but were disappointed.  

[luckymucklebackit]

Interesting topic and brings back the memories.

From previous posts yes the 1C0-C01 wheel arrangement was banned from the station throat at Glasgow central after a derailment al;though I think this may have been after the final TCE also mention was made of a loco change at Eaglesham..a nice conservation village on the outskirts of Glasgow and not rail connected..although it might have been as it was proposed back about 1900..I don't live far from there so a lovely thought but alas not possible.

 

....

 

Dave.

 

 

Ha - Missed that comment!!  locos are changed in Eaglesham every week, but only in my loft.  I am told that the football park at the lower end of the village was surveyed for the station that never got built, it could never have got any further as it is a stiff climb up through the village, I know as I am near the top!!

 

Jim

[vitalspark]

Ha - Missed that comment!!  locos are changed in Eaglesham every week, but only in my loft.  I am told that the football park at the lower end of the village was surveyed for the station that never got built, it could never have got any further as it is a stiff climb up through the village, I know as I am near the top!!

 

Jim

Jim I struggled to think where the location might have been..Strathbungo perhaps?..anyway made me smile too.

There was of course as I am sure you know a plan to run a short branch from the line just after Thortonhall..EK side.

Aparrently a connection was laid to serve a siding and it was from this location the line would have continued I believe.

I have been told the evidence is still visible although I have not looked.

There was a nice layout back in McLellan Galleries days named the Eaglesham Light Railway nicely modelled by a couple of friends.

Don't know if its still stored somewhere but it depicted what might have been and many of the buildings around the central area of Eaglesham were modelled and very nice too from memory.

I actually have a video of this layout so it must have been after 1979 as that was when the excellent Betamax portable system burst on to the scene..just in time to capture Deltics at York with the accompanying sound….I digress.

 

Dave.

[45156]

One further memory and going back some years, I once managed to wangle a ride "up front" on the up TCE from Glasgow to Kilmarnock, when coming back from University, and on leaving Central, we didn't route via Strathbungo Jn and the joint line at all, instead getting the road for Paisley, and going by what was known as "the Long Road" via Paisley Gilmour Street, Dalry, and back to Kilmarnock via Crosshouse.  Didn't happen very often, and then couldn't happen at all, as the Long Road was closed.  Shame that we didn't manage the whole of the diversion, as that would also have meant going via Paisley Canal.

[midlandmike]

Hi:  Lived in Settle as a young lad used to see the Thames Clyde and Waverley go through most days in 1959/60 - big groans

from us spotters as the usual suspects headed the train - Scot The Duke of Wellingtons Regt or Britannia Earl Haig.

[benellioldman]

Hi

It seems that the diversion line that the was around in the 50s/60s soon after leaving Sheffield Midland to the North was use of the Chapeltown branch to gain access to Normantan Leeds. I was working in the preceding signal box (Brightside Junc) before the branch turned off from the main Rotherham Masboro line.

The Thames Clyde/ Waverley/Glasgow/Edinburgh  night trains all used this route but interestingly no other expresses other than emergency. The documentation of this line is sketchy has it is basically the line that Sheffield Barnsley locals used not much excitement there, but apparently these trains turned off that line just before Barnsley towards Cudworth, can anyone elaborate on this diversion. Motive power upto 1961 was Jubilee/Royal Scot to and from Leeds but then the Peaks' In 1962 these trains were classed as very important and woe betide the signalman if he held up the movement of these, Rotherham control were soon on the tel

If anyone would like any further info regarding the trains running around 1961/62/63 on either the GC or Midland lines around Sheffield I did travel around several signal boxes in that area ie Sheffield South 1, Darnall, Brightside etc etc.

Steve   

[Atlantic]

Would anyone have details of the rakes of coaches used on this service as the links mentioned earlier in this thread have stopped working. I'm particularly interested in the rakes used around 1974/5 when the service ended.

Thanks very much

[keefer]

Robert Carroll's coaching stock group is now at:

https://brcoachingstock.groups.io/

 

I haven't checked to see if the specific info you're after is available, but there are many coaching stock available

[Atlantic]

Yes I joined that site and it did have the info I wanted. Thanks for that. Great stuff!

[Atlantic]

Does anyone know what depot the stock used on this service in the 1970s was allocated to?

[robertcwp]

I wrote these notes back in 2013.

[Atlantic]

very useful but it doesn't show the depot allocation for the stock which is what i'm interested in,

[csvt2004]

I have gone through my notes from spotting 1972 to 1974, when I lived lineside between Keighley and Skipton. I recorded 1S68 a total of 168 times, every weekend and during the school hols.

Of the 168, there were 5 class 40's, 5 class 47's, 10 class 46 and 148 class 45. The class 45 were nearly all Holbeck loco's, one Cricklewood and two from Toton. The 46 were all Gateshead bar one, D185 which I have down as 82A!

 

[Flood]

From the London Midland Marshalling book in 1974:

Note that it states diagram 314 on the right hand side and it states no other Region's stock so must be from the LMR.

 

From the 1974 LMR Loco hauled stock programme:

 

it is stated as starting at Cricklewood. Pretty safe bet that this is the stock's allocation.

[Atlantic]

Thanks for explaining that. I didn't know Cricklewood had an allocation of coaching stock. Great one!